Monks are coming, so I am going

[Kris_P._Letus]

I saw a good bumper sticker the other day...

KEEP HONKING
I'M RELOADING

seen one the other day that said "my other ride is a beholder". although, i dont see how you could get a saddle on a beholder.....

[Dracolich]

seen one the other day that said "my other ride is a beholder". although, i dont see how you could get a saddle on a beholder.....

There was a second ed. series of books on Beholders. It had a suit of magical full plate that a beholder got strapped onto the schoulders of. he controled its movments with a sort of tongue manipulator :P

[Kris_P._Letus]

There was a second ed. series of books on Beholders. It had a suit of magical full plate that a beholder got strapped onto the schoulders of. he controled its movments with a sort of tongue manipulator :P

lmao. id LOVE to see that!!

[RazorrX]

quote=Eudimio

Okay, I'm actually not trying to troll here, really.

Anyone who trains with a (martial) weapon is a martial artist. All SEALs, and indeed most soldiers, are martial artists. And, yes, their formal military training does not include much unarmed fighting. A boxer is a martial artist, so is a wrestler, so is a sword fighter, so is a knife fighter. You are talking about Eastern unarmed martial artists. That is a small subset of martial artists. I made no inferrence otherwise.

Martial art = war art. In that you are correct, so in a very broad definition they are all the same. I disagree with that definition, and I think that since that comparison was used (SEAL = NINJA) in a topic that related to the Monk (a class based upon Eastern Martial Arts) that the more tightly understood definition (A practitioner of eastern martial arts) would be the valid definition for this topic.

I once had a guy in the SCA tell me he was training martial arts by doing SCA fighting. Would I say an SCA weekend warrior was the same as a Samurai? Nope.

My Sifu tells me to always use a weapon if one is available. They give you advantages.

My Sifu told me to use what I know, don't risk getting my butt handed to me because a weapon I can not use is handy. Less is more, train what you use, use what you know.

I like your killing a bull story. Here's mine: My grandfather once killed one of his bulls by striking it with a sledgehammer. He was 5'1" tall, and weighed about 140 pounds (my grandpa, not the bull). He raised cows, but started that later in his life. He didn't intend to kill it. That was his method of moving the bull where he wanted to. My father always moved them by pulling them by thier noserings since he was much stronger than his father, and he grew up on the family farm. And when it was time to kill the bulls (necessary in a dairy operation), he would use a pistol. Why didn't he just punch them to death? lol.

I am not sure what this has to do with what I said (As I was giving an example of how a martial artist in the real world was shown to be able to hit very hard and lethally), but I will say that what you countered with is in no way the same.

I have seen pigs and cattle killed with a sledge hammer. A Sledgehammer and a human fist are totally different. You have mass, leverage and power difference there.

This just lends proof that in the real world, a martial artist can hit with empty hand as hard as a warhammer. Again, add the fantasy setting and you have easily gone to even more damage.

I would say your father used a gun or hammer and not a punch because he could not kill it with a punch. Not to demean him, or question his strength, etc. but to point out he lacked the training for that. Now if you told me that he was also a Highly Skilled Martial Artist in a Unarmed Striking Art, I would have to say . . . they were easier?

And furthermore, a real-world greatsword is a very poor killing instrument. Its major usage was to dehorse people.

Again, the argument by the original poster was that Monks could do the damage of a great sword (just rechecked, sorry was a Great Axe). This poster uses selective real world 'realism' to decide what is and is not too much. Thus by using the same selective use of real world data and then applying fantasy setting is is very easy to justify.

Again, notice that he never said that his barbarian should not have 500+ hitpoints, have greater Rage, natural DR, etc. Just that the Monk should not be able to hit that well so he was quitting the game because it was 'unrealistic'.

Bruce Lee was once asked if he could beat Muhammed Ali in a fight. His answer, "No. Have you seen the size of his fists?" And those were two very good martial artists.

One will never know. I do agree that both were excellent Athletes and were at the top of their game, but as one of my Sifu's told me - "Never fight a man on his own terms" IE never box a boxer, wrestle a wrestler, etc.

But yeah, in a fantasy setting, who cares?

Exactly my perspective as well. Fantasy setting totally wipes the whole "Realistic" argument out of the water.

[DoctorWhofan]

I just wanted to post this for anyone who is tracking how many people quit the game due to things that change in the game, etc. In case anyone is tracking those metrics, because they should be.

Anyway, I absolutely hate the monk class in D&D, and I simply can't play in a game that includes them. When a normal man's fist can outdamage a greataxe, my suspension of disbelief turns to simple disgust. I'm sure a lot of people want to play a monk, but since when does lots of people liking a thing make it right? I'm sure many would like to play superman or a Jedi or Klingons or stormtroopers or FBI agents but none of those belongs in a D&D game either. So, I will simply sign off and cancel my subscriptions. I think DDO is a great MMO, and there are lots of things people complain about that I don't really care one way or the other. But Monk class is where I have to draw my own personal line.

I hope DDO continues to have a long and successful life as an MMO, we had some great times here. Goodbye!

I hate monks.
Yeah, I'm gonna play one, just to see how it is.
Probably gonna delete it.
BUT...I am NOT quitting the game over it. THat seems rather silly.

[DoctorWhofan]

lmao. id LOVE to see that!!

I still have that book! yeah! It's really cool. Called "I, tyrant"

[JacknCoke]

I just wanted to post this for anyone who is tracking how many people quit the game due to things that change in the game, etc. In case anyone is tracking those metrics, because they should be.

Anyway, I absolutely hate the monk class in D&D, and I simply can't play in a game that includes them. When a normal man's fist can outdamage a greataxe, my suspension of disbelief turns to simple disgust. I'm sure a lot of people want to play a monk, but since when does lots of people liking a thing make it right? I'm sure many would like to play superman or a Jedi or Klingons or stormtroopers or FBI agents but none of those belongs in a D&D game either. So, I will simply sign off and cancel my subscriptions. I think DDO is a great MMO, and there are lots of things people complain about that I don't really care one way or the other. But Monk class is where I have to draw my own personal line.

I hope DDO continues to have a long and successful life as an MMO, we had some great times here. Goodbye!

I'm not into monks and will not be rolling one. Now when Druid comes out I will be excited. I just don't know since I'm not planing on playing monk why would I be upset enough to quit if someone else chooses to play one? hummmmmmm


That being said. Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.

[Oreg]

quote=Eudimio


My Sifu tells me to always use a weapon if one is available. They give you advantages.

My Sifu told me to use what I know, don't risk getting my butt handed to me because a weapon I can not use is handy. Less is more, train what you use, use what you know.

Cool. During a fight, my grandmother tells me "whatcha gonna do now? you dun dropped your pistol when you bust through the window" and sometimes she yells "kick his A@$ Seabass!"



I find it to be very motivating.

*edit. Oh and OP - silly. Very very silly*

[RazorrX]

Cool. During a fight, my grandmother tells me "whatcha gonna do now? you dun dropped your pistol when you bust through the window" and sometimes she yells "kick his A@$ Seabass!"

I find it to be very motivating.

Ahhh your grandmother is very wise. *nods*

[Eudimio]

Okay Razorrx, one last comment (for now, lol).

Because my 140 pound grandfather can (accidently) kill a bull just as your karate-guy can (intentionally), doesn't mean that a punch delivers as much force as a sledgehammer. Would a martial artist split a cord of hardwood with a sledgehammer and wedge, or with his fists? Which way would be faster? I'll be checking youtube for the results.

[frugal_gourmet]

Okay Razorrx, one last comment (for now, lol).

Because my 140 pound grandfather can (accidently) kill a bull just as your karate-guy can (intentionally), doesn't mean that a punch delivers as much force as a sledgehammer. Would a martial artist split a cord of hardwood with a sledgehammer and wedge, or with his fists? Which way would be faster? I'll be checking youtube for the results.

I'd agree with you on this one.

It is extaordinarily rare (and lucky), incidentally, for a martial artist to be able to kill someone (even if that someone is untrained) with a single strike assuming that person is aware of the impending attack. It takes more marginal training to do so with a knife. Killing with fists can't predictably be done by anyone, regardless of legend.

Punching through boards and blocks is a trick and has little to do with real martial arts efficacy.

Even in Mas Oyama's publicity stunt (probably fake anyway), the bull is wrestled with first and coaxed into a prone position. Mas Oyama tried this bit in Mexico and failed (got hurt too).

The martial arts documentary from National Geographic is awesome, but it has been widely criticized for gross Scientific exaggerations and biases in favor of coolness factor.

Now I wouldn't want to tangle with a martial artist mind you, but if anyone thinks their martial arts training prepares them to go toe-to-toe with an armed combatant or will *ever* do so they are being mislead. If there's a weapon, you grab it. And you use your martial arts training to avoid getting hit and get the hell out of there.

Now, in D&D? That's different. Many want to play the legendary fist-fighting fantasy archetype. Great fun!

[Jerevon]

Isn't it a little late in the game to say "I don't like monks"? Whatever, I'm going to check out mod 7 till October.

[DaveSpades]

I just wanted to post this for anyone who is tracking how many people quit the game due to things that change in the game, etc. In case anyone is tracking those metrics, because they should be.

Anyway, I absolutely hate the monk class in D&D, and I simply can't play in a game that includes them. When a normal man's fist can outdamage a greataxe, my suspension of disbelief turns to simple disgust. I'm sure a lot of people want to play a monk, but since when does lots of people liking a thing make it right? I'm sure many would like to play superman or a Jedi or Klingons or stormtroopers or FBI agents but none of those belongs in a D&D game either. So, I will simply sign off and cancel my subscriptions. I think DDO is a great MMO, and there are lots of things people complain about that I don't really care one way or the other. But Monk class is where I have to draw my own personal line.

I hope DDO continues to have a long and successful life as an MMO, we had some great times here. Goodbye!

Every type of charachter has build restrictions and plusses and minuses about them. Its called variety. The illusion that monks are the best is crazy. They said the same about drows and yes they are a tad better at certain things, they are NOT invincible. Monks will not be either. I am sure when those kids create a monk to do PVP, they will find this out the hard way.

[RazorrX]

Okay Razorrx, one last comment (for now, lol).

Because my 140 pound grandfather can (accidently) kill a bull just as your karate-guy can (intentionally), doesn't mean that a punch delivers as much force as a sledgehammer. Would a martial artist split a cord of hardwood with a sledgehammer and wedge, or with his fists? Which way would be faster? I'll be checking youtube for the results.

Personally, I am getting the impression that you are just trying to goad me, but will reply once more.

National Geographic did a show called Fight science. They used modern tech to measure the force, speed, etc. of martial artists. some of the numbers:

Numbers:
Most powrful face punch: 1000 ft lb(boxer)
Kick to the chest: 1,500 ft lb (Muai Thai) (This was stated as being similar to a vehicular impact at 30 mph)
Speed: 40f/s (wushu). Compare: snake 8-10f/s (average)


The show used crash test technology, etc. to get the numbers. In almost every instance they were amazed that a trained martial artist could generate that kind of speed, power and accuracy. The Ninjutsu guy used a death strike that according to the engineers would have compressed the sternum into the heart, causing it to stop, IE kill with one punch.

The fact that your grandfather could replicate with a sledge hammer what a martial artist did with his fist shows how amazing the martial artist was. To kill a Bull (with a thick skull) by one hand strike to the head is an amazing feat of skill and power. To belittle that by implying that anyone could do it but choose not to is lame. That being said, I think I am done here.

[Eudimio]

Okay, how far can a martial artist redirect a baseball travelling at 100 mph in the opposite direction? Is it less than 500 feet?

Crushing a sternum into a heart is not that great a feat. I'm still not sure why you think a punch produces as much power as a sledgehammer or a baseball bat.

[captain1z]

Okay, how far can a martial artist redirect a baseball travelling at 100 mph in the opposite direction? Is it less than 500 feet?

Crushing a sternum into a heart is not that great a feat. I'm still not sure why you think a punch produces as much power as a sledgehammer or a baseball bat.

Numbers can be adjusted to reflect anything you want. If you measure the affect of a baseball bat psi and a punch psi depending on the people swinging each the above statement could be true.


Fact is a butter knife thrust into the right part of the human anatomy is just as effective as a semi-truck in doing the job intended.
The knife in questing could possibly carry as much force as a semi truck only the knife does it in a 1/2 inch area only and the semi truck does the same amount in a 1/2 inch space but also does the same damage for every 1/2 inch across your entire body.

A knife the size of a semi could be said to do this also.

[KristovK]

Okay, how far can a martial artist redirect a baseball travelling at 100 mph in the opposite direction? Is it less than 500 feet?

Crushing a sternum into a heart is not that great a feat. I'm still not sure why you think a punch produces as much power as a sledgehammer or a baseball bat.

I don't recall every trying to redirect a baseball with my hands during my training, but I would suspect it wouldn't be a very effective method of trying to redirect a baseball. I don't recall every having a fist thrown at me at 100mph, since 7 m/s(speed of a standard board breaking strike) doesn't come close to 100mph(7 m/s is around 15mph). Now, I'll be the first to admit that the striking speed CAN be increased, believe 15 m/s is the limit though, and that's only 30mph.

And if you think breaking a sternum with your bare hand is that simple, you've never been in a fight with another human being in reality. Or traded heart punches with your buddies in high school. Takes a LOT of force to break the sternum, more than most people can attain without specialized training. I can do it, but I've got 3 black belts and have been taught how to, I've broken boards, bricks, and concrete blocks. And I've also been very careful when engaging in hand to hand combat so that I did NOT actually break anyone's bones, which is the other side of martial arts training, control.

And I've gone hand to sword more than once doing SCA combats when I was, for whatever reason, without a weapon in hand. And I never once failed to take my opponent down, armored or not, shield or not. Actually enjoyed doing that, as it takes a lot more skill to take out an armed opponent when you aren't armed. Avoiding getting hit, getting around their defenses(shield/armor), and then getting that weapon out of their hands or disabling the arm with the weapon, and then getting a kill blow without using a weapon on an armored opponent...THAT is fun.

[Tallyn]

Okay, how far can a martial artist redirect a baseball travelling at 100 mph in the opposite direction? Is it less than 500 feet?

Crushing a sternum into a heart is not that great a feat. I'm still not sure why you think a punch produces as much power as a sledgehammer or a baseball bat.

I think you are using faulty arguments here. In 99.9% of cases, no a punch will not produce as much power as a sledgehammer. However, this also depends on who is using the sledgehammer (to a degree) and who is throwing the punch (makes a big difference). If you're asking if a strong martial artist can generate as much force as a strong person (who knows how to use a sledge) using a sledge hammer on a stationary target, then I would say no.

In addition, your reference to a baseball bat does not work. The wood of bat produces some bounce to it. I don't think there is any part of the body that will produce that kind of reaction. The body would probably absorb too much of the energy.

[TheGreatEye]

Ok, um ..

50,000: Because they were bored
25,000: Because their friends are playing something else
5,000: Because of 1 too many nerfs
5,000: Because of real life commitments
1: Because they added a new class

LMAO!!

[Nevthial]

I like your killing a bull story. Here's mine: My grandfather once killed one of his bulls by striking it with a sledgehammer. He was 5'1" tall, and weighed about 140 pounds (my grandpa, not the bull). He raised cows, but started that later in his life. He didn't intend to kill it. That was his method of moving the bull where he wanted to. My father always moved them by pulling them by thier noserings since he was much stronger than his father, and he grew up on the family farm. And when it was time to kill the bulls (necessary in a dairy operation), he would use a pistol. Why didn't he just punch them to death? lol.

I've killed a bull with a dry rotted stick. They have a soft spot on their heads.