Request: Flurry of Blows

[EinarMal]

However, in game, there are still a significant amount of quests with a "low" (tho compared to PnP any mob total in this game is huge) mob total, splitting targets, etc., which in many cases would make it much more random than 5% both up or down. As I said, I'm not against vorpals or trying to minimize them, just saying imx they seem overrated.

They definitely can be frustrating, as you can go many swings without one going off and then hit 5 in a row. I've had good luck on quests like Madstone with them on my Tempest Rogue. Of course with sneak attacks you can still also do some decent DPS with them as well when you are not landing any 20's.

Madstone is a good one because as you say you get plenty of swings so you will average out pretty close to 5% of your swings on that quest.

[honkuimushi]

I further hope they allow daggers as FoB weapons since they have not implemented the Sai. Thus, Monk will be able to flurry with Pierce weaps as well.

Actually, sai are bludgeoning weapons. Singham are piercing.

[KristovK]

Given that it will most likely be too difficult to implement new animations to support 2WF with FoB, I would like to request the following implementation.

1) Flurry of Blows = 15% increase to attack speed, classified as sacred for appropriate stacking purposes. Implement FoB as a toggle and maintain the -2 attack bonus for using it.
2) At level 5, improve the toggle (call it something like Improved Flurry) and reduce the attack penalty to -1.
3) At level 9, improve the toggle such that the attack penalty is reduced to 0.
4) Greater Flurry = 30% increase to attack speed, classified as sacred.

Not sure about the actual percents as I don't have a tested attacks per minute for Kamas. I don't see how they will be able to implement unarmed strike as 2WF, so don't see that as an issue. This in turn will force the monk to make a choice: 1) the most possible attacks at lower base damage with Kama(s) or 2) additional, but less than maximum, attacks with higher base damage unarmed strikes.

Eh...FoB doesn't increase your attack speed, it simply gives an extra attack per round..or per sequence in DDO terms. Comes with a price at lower levels, -2 AB for all attacks until 5th at which point it becomes -1 and at 9th it ceases to exist. At 11th level, they get an extra attack per sequence with FoB, giving them 2 extra per sequence, which gives a Monk the most attacks per sequence of any class, hitting 5 per sequence at 15th level, compared to Fighter types who max at 4 per sequence at 16th level. Naturally, those are off from the DDO system, where we have 5 per sequence for Fighter types at 16th, so a Monk should have 6 per sequence at 15th with FoB active. The Connect 08 videos showed the alpha version Monk(1 Ranger/15 Monk) making 5 attacks per sequence at the least(5 distinct animations visible) using unarmed combat, so it's not clear yet exactly how this will work, but that IS more attacks per sequence than a 1 Ranger/15 BAB3/4 build would make in DDO currently(tops at 4 per sequence with 1 Ranger/15 Cleric-Rogue-Bard builds), although it does appear to be less then the 6 it should be per sequence(again, hard to tell exactly, 5 distinct animations in the combat sequence, could be that some are doing double hits similiar to how TWF animations work).

FoB is a bit more than it appears..it's an extra attack going unarmed(up to 2 at 11th) AND it allows FREE TWF with specific Monk weapons(already listed by previous posters) at a MUCH lower cost then the TWF feats(1 feat gives it, negs start at what you see with Imp TWF, and go to 0, which saves you a list of feats).

[Taerdra]

In real-time MMO there is little difference between increasing the attack speed by speeding up a particular animation sequence or adding an extra attack into a new animation. Net result = more attacks. Just two different ways of implementing -- my suggestion entails less programming which is a realistic limitation on resources in the development of this game.

I'm all for new animations, but I frankly am more interested in the real application of FoB into the game and matching that up with PnP as best we can.

FoB is fantastic as I've said already and roughly equivalent to TWF by itself. FoB + TWF is heavenly (excuse pun).

I'll take a look at the video again.

[dengar]

Just wanted to let you all know, in PnP FoB is not two handed fighting. This is an extra attack with your main hand when wielding a weapon ( makes it nice for monk to carry the torch!). You can still choose to dual wield different Kama's or other weapons and take all the penalties for doing so.


Only the unarmed attacks can be changed from fist to knee in the same round for added color and variety, this is due to them being a natural weapon and the monks training.

[Taerdra]

Just wanted to let you all know, in PnP FoB is not two handed fighting. This is an extra attack with your main hand when wielding a weapon ( makes it nice for monk to carry the torch!). You can still choose to dual wield different Kama's or other weapons and take all the penalties for doing so.


Only the unarmed attacks can be changed from fist to knee in the same round for added color and variety, this is due to them being a natural weapon and the monks training.

Not sure what you're trying to say exactly, but it's been proven time and again that 3.5/PnP does allow FoB to stack with TWF for even more attacks. It's just a question to me of whether/how they can implement that in DDO. Otherwise, unless they use variant rules (which I've seen some stuff saying they would), monks will have difficulty competing in the DDO melee/DPS environment imho.

[EinarMal]

Not sure what you're trying to say exactly, but it's been proven time and again that 3.5/PnP does allow FoB to stack with TWF for even more attacks. It's just a question to me of whether/how they can implement that in DDO. Otherwise, unless they use variant rules (which I've seen some stuff saying they would), monks will have difficulty competing in the DDO melee/DPS environment imho.

The absolute easiest way to do it would be to just add extra attacks to the standard monk animations, just like TWF. So, if you have flurry of blows active your first swing gets two main weapon rolls (and eventually your second) at the correct penalty is applied to all your attacks. This would also stack with TWF extra "rolls" when using TWF with the feats as would the extra penalty stack.

That would be awesome, and you would get a lot or rolls in the animation that way. It seems like maybe it is not going to work like that though.

This way you don't really have to change the animation at all, just what is going on behind the scenes where you are getting credit for flurry and TWF by getting the correct extra rolls and penalties.

Essentially that is how TWF works, the animation plays out and behind the scenes the correct number of attacks are given, beyond the number of actual swings in the animation. I don't see why they couldn't add a few more rolls to this as part of flurry of blows.

[dengar]

I was not discussing the ability to stack TWF with FoB, I was responding to people saying you get free TWF with FoB which in my experience and discussions within our PnP group is not the case. One thing about PnP is that it is open to a lot of interpretation also and I try to keep that in mind. What we do in this case is this:

If a 3rd level monk uses FoB they are -2 on each attack, if that same monk uses FoB and adds in an offhand attack he is then at -4 on all attacks if he has TWF (-2 due to FoB and another -2 due to TWF with light weapon in offhand) Now if a level 11 monk did this same thing they would only be -2 on all attacks as there is no penalty for the FoB any longer.

I interpreted a lot of the previous posts saying that the penalty for FoB and TWF would not stack and therefore the monk would only be -2 to hit if they where doing both and that during a FoB the monk received TWF for free which is not the case from everything I have read regarding monks.


btw my main in the PnP group currently running is a 15 monk 2 wiz ( **** our caster leaving the group)

[Taerdra]

The absolute easiest way to do it would be to just add extra attacks to the standard monk animations, just like TWF. So, if you have flurry of blows active your first swing gets two main weapon rolls (and eventually your second) at the correct penalty is applied to all your attacks. This would also stack with TWF extra "rolls" when using TWF with the feats as would the extra penalty stack.

That would be awesome, and you would get a lot or rolls in the animation that way. It seems like maybe it is not going to work like that though.

This way you don't really have to change the animation at all, just what is going on behind the scenes where you are getting credit for flurry and TWF by getting the correct extra rolls and penalties.

Essentially that is how TWF works, the animation plays out and behind the scenes the correct number of attacks are given, beyond the number of actual swings in the animation. I don't see why they couldn't add a few more rolls to this as part of flurry of blows.

Agreed. I probably didn't say it right, but easiest way to treat this is similar to Tempest. That's what I'm trying to advocate.

[Taerdra]

I was not discussing the ability to stack TWF with FoB, I was responding to people saying you get free TWF with FoB which in my experience and discussions within our PnP group is not the case. One thing about PnP is that it is open to a lot of interpretation also and I try to keep that in mind. What we do in this case is this:

If a 3rd level monk uses FoB they are -2 on each attack, if that same monk uses FoB and adds in an offhand attack he is then at -4 on all attacks if he has TWF (-2 due to FoB and another -2 due to TWF with light weapon in offhand) Now if a level 11 monk did this same thing they would only be -2 on all attacks as there is no penalty for the FoB any longer.

I interpreted a lot of the previous posts saying that the penalty for FoB and TWF would not stack and therefore the monk would only be -2 to hit if they where doing both and that during a FoB the monk received TWF for free which is not the case from everything I have read regarding monks.


btw my main in the PnP group currently running is a 15 monk 2 wiz ( **** our caster leaving the group)

Now I get it. Sorry just wasn't really following you at first. I think what Kritov was trying to say is FoB gives extra attacks just like TWF. There are penalties to your point, but it doesn't cost feats. Like you, I'm more interested in being able to stack them as I really want my Monk to be DPS. Selfish I know...

Gratz on hitting 17? The only time I've ever had characters get that high in PnP was when we started at 16 lol.

[EinarMal]

Now I get it. Sorry just wasn't really following you at first. I think what Kritov was trying to say is FoB gives extra attacks just like TWF. There are penalties to your point, but it doesn't cost feats. Like you, I'm more interested in being able to stack them as I really want my Monk to be DPS. Selfish I know...

Gratz on hitting 17? The only time I've ever had characters get that high in PnP was when we started at 16 lol.

Yeah if flurry doesn't stack with TWF, those stances and power bar thingy better be pretty powerful or monks are going to be weak in my opinion. I think in a high magic setting (and DDO is about as high as it gets hehe) that unarmed combat becomes pretty tough to pull off.

Maybe you can buy some +5 brass knuckles of disruption or something

[Invalid_86]

Not sure what you're trying to say exactly, but it's been proven time and again that 3.5/PnP does allow FoB to stack with TWF for even more attacks. It's just a question to me of whether/how they can implement that in DDO. Otherwise, unless they use variant rules (which I've seen some stuff saying they would), monks will have difficulty competing in the DDO melee/DPS environment imho.

A big BUT here. TWF does not apply to unarmed attacks as there is no such thing as an off hand unarmed attack. So you cannot flurry and use TWF with unarmed attacks- but you could theoretically do it with a staff if staffs every get put into the game correctly. The downside, of course, is a higher level monk would probably do more damage unarmed than they would with the staff, and they would have the penalties to hit due to dual wielding.

[EinarMal]

A big BUT here. TWF does not apply to unarmed attacks as there is no such thing as an off hand unarmed attack. So you cannot flurry and use TWF with unarmed attacks- but you could theoretically do it with a staff if staffs every get put into the game correctly. The downside, of course, is a higher level monk would probably do more damage unarmed than they would with the staff, and they would have the penalties to hit due to dual wielding.

How would an unarmed attack do more damage than a greater bane kama or staff (if you could use both ends)?

[KristovK]

I was not discussing the ability to stack TWF with FoB, I was responding to people saying you get free TWF with FoB which in my experience and discussions within our PnP group is not the case. One thing about PnP is that it is open to a lot of interpretation also and I try to keep that in mind. What we do in this case is this:

If a 3rd level monk uses FoB they are -2 on each attack, if that same monk uses FoB and adds in an offhand attack he is then at -4 on all attacks if he has TWF (-2 due to FoB and another -2 due to TWF with light weapon in offhand) Now if a level 11 monk did this same thing they would only be -2 on all attacks as there is no penalty for the FoB any longer.

I interpreted a lot of the previous posts saying that the penalty for FoB and TWF would not stack and therefore the monk would only be -2 to hit if they where doing both and that during a FoB the monk received TWF for free which is not the case from everything I have read regarding monks.


btw my main in the PnP group currently running is a 15 monk 2 wiz ( **** our caster leaving the group)

That's mixing TWF with FoB, which does add the composite penalties and is a different subject. FoB gives you, essentially, free TWF with Monk specific weapons only, actually better then TWF as you get lesser penalties that vanish as you level along with 2 extra attacks instead of just 1, without expending a single feat since it's a class given freebie feat at level 1.

FoB - 1 extra attack from level 1 to level 10, 2 extra attacks 11+. -2 AB on every attack from 1-4, -1 AB on every attack from 5-8, no AB penalty on attacks 9+. Only works with unarmed strikes or the specific monks weapons - kama, quarterstaff, sai, singhaim, nunchuka. Can freely exchange unarmed strikes with weapon strikes while using FoB - ie - strike with kama, kama, unarmed(hand/body part) as you see fit, within the number of attacks you are allowed per sequence. Monks can equip 2 of their specific weapons and use FoB, or use a quarterstaff as a double ended weapon using FoB, and still interspace their attacks with unarmed strikes, again provided they don't exceed their number of attacks per sequence. Oh..and Monks apply their full Str bonus to FoB strikes either unarmed or using weapons, main or offhand.

TWF - 1 extra attack using the offhand weapon, -2 AB in main hand, -4 offhand while using light weapon in offhand, -4/both if using non-light weapon in offhand. That's it, nothing else, works with any weapons and simply adds a single extra attack to your sequence.

[Invalid_86]

How would an unarmed attack do more damage than a greater bane kama or staff (if you could use both ends)?

Base damage on a staff or kama is only a D6, and by the time a Monk is 4th level they are already doing D8's for damage, all the way up to 2D8 base damage at our current level cap of 16.

Granted a greater bane weapon would do more damage against one creature type- which is why high level monks might still bother carrying a weapon or two- but for the majority of fights unarmed will still do more damage.

[Taerdra]

A big BUT here. TWF does not apply to unarmed attacks as there is no such thing as an off hand unarmed attack. So you cannot flurry and use TWF with unarmed attacks- but you could theoretically do it with a staff if staffs every get put into the game correctly. The downside, of course, is a higher level monk would probably do more damage unarmed than they would with the staff, and they would have the penalties to hit due to dual wielding.

Yes, you could not stack TWF and FoB with unarmed attacks which is in concert with NwN/NwN2 type of implementation. I already agreed to that in the OP as I wrote it out. This allows a very high attack speed which is then offset by a relatively shabby weapon in the Kama.

If a level 20 Monk can have a base damage of 2d10 unarmed and there are elemental/Greater Bane gloves, etc., available, clearly unarmed + FoB + 2WF would be broken. However, unarmed working with FoB with that type of base damage imo would be alright. It really comes down to what kind of items, bonus damage, etc., monks will have in the game. If everything is available -- to Einer's point, DDO is extremely high magic -- then I think unarmed + FOB and Kama + TWF + FOB would both be reasonable ways to build a DPS monk.

[EinarMal]

A big BUT here. TWF does not apply to unarmed attacks as there is no such thing as an off hand unarmed attack. So you cannot flurry and use TWF with unarmed attacks

This is actually incorrect according to the official 3.5 FAQ which states you can use flurry and TWF with unarmed attacks.

To add an off-hand attack to a flurry of blows, stack
whatever two-weapon penalty the monk has with the penalty (if
any) from the flurry. Attacks from the flurry have the monk’s
full damage bonus from Strength, but the off-hand attack gains
only half Strength bonus to damage. If the off-hand attack is a
weapon, that weapon isn’t available for use in the flurry (if it
can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question). For
example, a 4th-level monk with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat
and a Strength score of 14 decides to use a flurry of blows and
decides to throw in an off-hand attack as well. The monk has a
base attack bonus of +3 and a +2 Strength bonus. With a flurry,
the character can make two attacks, each at +3 (base +3, –2
flurry, +2 Strength). An unarmed strike is a light weapon, so
the monk suffers an additional –2 penalty for both the flurry
and the off-hand attack, and the monk makes three attacks,
each at an attack bonus of +1. The two attacks from the flurry
are primary attacks and add the monk’s full Strength bonus to
damage of +2. The single off-hand attack adds half the monk’s
Strength bonus to damage (+1).
If the monk in our example has two sais to use with the
flurry, plus the off-hand attack, she can use both in the flurry
(in which case she must make the off-hand attack with an
unarmed strike) or one sai for the off-hand attack and one with
the flurry. The sai used in the off-hand attack is not available
for the flurry and vice versa.

[Invalid_86]

This is actually incorrect according to the official 3.5 FAQ which states you can use flurry and TWF with unarmed attacks.

To add an off-hand attack to a flurry of blows, stack
whatever two-weapon penalty the monk has with the penalty (if
any) from the flurry. Attacks from the flurry have the monk’s
full damage bonus from Strength, but the off-hand attack gains
only half Strength bonus to damage. If the off-hand attack is a
weapon, that weapon isn’t available for use in the flurry (if it
can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question). For
example, a 4th-level monk with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat
and a Strength score of 14 decides to use a flurry of blows and
decides to throw in an off-hand attack as well. The monk has a
base attack bonus of +3 and a +2 Strength bonus. With a flurry,
the character can make two attacks, each at +3 (base +3, –2
flurry, +2 Strength). An unarmed strike is a light weapon, so
the monk suffers an additional –2 penalty for both the flurry
and the off-hand attack, and the monk makes three attacks,
each at an attack bonus of +1. The two attacks from the flurry
are primary attacks and add the monk’s full Strength bonus to
damage of +2. The single off-hand attack adds half the monk’s
Strength bonus to damage (+1).
If the monk in our example has two sais to use with the
flurry, plus the off-hand attack, she can use both in the flurry
(in which case she must make the off-hand attack with an
unarmed strike) or one sai for the off-hand attack and one with
the flurry. The sai used in the off-hand attack is not available
for the flurry and vice versa.

You have a reference for that? As page 41 of the PHB clearly states that there is no such thing as an off hand attack while striking unarmed, meaning TWF never applies.

Or you can reference it here:

Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes

Source: http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/ClassesI.rtf

No ability to make off hand attacks = no ability to use TWF.

[KristovK]

As EinarMal points out, TWF does work with Unarmed Strike and it works with FoB with Unarmed Strike..or mixed with a weapon in either hand. TWF however adds greater penalties to the AB then FoB does and costs the Str damage bonus that FoB allows.

And by the PnP rules, you can enchant anything with anything, you just have to be willing to pay the cost, so handwraps/gloves/bracers that increase AB, increase damage, add elemental damages, alignment damages, and so on could be created and used..if you are willing to pay the costs. Someone posted in another thread that WoTC said that's not true anymore, but I've been unable to confirm that...which means nothing as finding something the Sage said is oftentimes harder then getting the forum posters here to agree on something I have however spent hours going through the Sage Advice and Ask Wizard sections as well as the WoTC forums and been unable to find anything on this.

[EinarMal]

You have a reference for that? As page 41 of the PHB clearly states that there is no such thing as an off hand attack while striking unarmed, meaning TWF never applies.

Or you can reference it here:

Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes

Source: http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/ClassesI.rtf

No ability to make off hand attacks = no ability to use TWF.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221

It has a whole section on TWF and flurry and states that they do indeed stack and work with unarmed attacks.

For example you could use a first (or any monk weapon in your "main" hand) and a rapier in your off hand (assume you have GTWF and OTWF). You would make all your normal attacks +2 (Flurry main hand fist attacks) +all your normal TWF off hand attacks, all of those would be made at the stacking penalty of flurry and TWF.

If they do it by normal 3.5 rules you should be able to stack a monk weapon (main) + any 1 handed off hand weapon and get full flury and TWF abilities at the appropriate stacking penalty.

That is why I suggest they just roll the extra flurry attacks during the combat animation tied to swings (like they do with TWF currently) on top of any TWF "hooks" that you get from those feats as long as you have the proper weapon in the main hand.