A proposed change to barb crit rage

[Cowdenicus]

Do you have a pali?

Yes I do, his name is Husbin Pharteen on Ghallanda. He is not a pure Pally, I did splash one fighter level into him so far, thinking of splashing a second one also for the +1 to str and the free feat.

[Edit] He is Warforged

[juniorpfactors]

Do you have a pali?

ya I do .... I have 1 of every useful class........ meaning I have NO wiz and No rogue

jrp

[krud]

Yes, it will increase their dps...but will it be enough for it to match the special effect weapons.

As of right now in game, special effect weapons > DPS. I'm not sure how much dps would have to be added to make them equal.

The only other thought I had in regards to not being enough dps is that the x2 modifier would apply on any roll of a 20 (and 19?) even if a crit is not confirmed. This would be a mini-crit in those cases were you don't confirm. It may be too much dps (really depends on how often you confirm crits). That's somethiong you all can decide, I tend to think the dps is ok as is.

[Impaqt]

he probably meant shroud.

In the Shroud Banishers are useless on any difficulty cause we're essentially on their plane (Or at least between planes) and theres nothing to Smite that I recall off hand.

[Vhlad]

ya I do .... I have 1 of every useful class........ meaning I have NO wiz and No rogue

jrp

You should retire that fighter and replace it with a barb or ranger!
:P

hmmm. let's see.
After giving movement while reloading to everyone, and the following bug that prevented repeaters from reloading/firing properly, AND the fixing of the ability to hotswap repeaters on your shortcut bar for continuous firing, I rerolled my human shot on the run rogue and made a human fighter.

After introduction of 32 point and the enhancement overhaul (human versatility nerf, boost to dwarves), I rerolled my human fighter as a dwarf tactical fighter (improved trip, stunning blow), with 2 levels of rogue.

After nerf to tactical feats via blanket boss and red named immunities, AND the nerf/fix to evasion in mithral full plate, I rerolled my dwarf fighter to a human fighter with 2 rogue and 2 pally.

Then barbs get critical rage and rangers get rams might and tempest (which are both detractions from pnp, and something one could absolutely not plan for). So I have vhlader, a pure ranger str/con based, dwarf, in the making, nearly enough XP for level 9, but I'm just waiting now to see if fighters get ANY love.

Cause really, I'm quite tired of rerolling and replacing tonnes of raid loot. This game is quite aggravating for a powergaming min-maxer, compared to normal pnp, where everything is laid out and you can plan the optimal build for a given edition without things turning upsidedown midway.

Heck if we could respec or transfer bound raid loot or de-level a character, I'd be fine with whatever Turbine threw at me. But 4 retired alts that were at one point optimal and decked out with raid loot/tomes, but became sub 100% because the game changed (i.e. not because I made a mistake in the build), and subsequent nerfs to the raid loot mechanic (used to solo/duo/trio raids, for a much greater amount of bound loot) has got me to the point where I'm *almost* ready to play something else and stop wasting time bouncing around. I can't play a character and be fully happy about it if I do not see it as the absolute best build available. It's like, the little devil on my left shoulder says: "vhlad, you can make XXXX instead of YYYY and be 2% better!" And then the other devil on my right shoulder goes all stab stabby until I reroll. **** you Turbine! If you change and rebalance the game you should allow respecs, like other MMOs!

[Gunga]

Yes I do, his name is Husbin Pharteen on Ghallanda. He is not a pure Pally, I did splash one fighter level into him so far, thinking of splashing a second one also for the +1 to str and the free feat.

[Edit] He is Warforged

What level?

[Invalid_86]

Or you could just get rid of it completely.

Like it or not it had been mentioned before that this was being looked at. Don't be too surprised when/if a fix comes along.

[Gunga]

Or you could just get rid of it completely.

Like it or not it had been mentioned before that this was being looked at. Don't be too surprised when/if a fix comes along.

Surprised? Did you read the OP Title?

[Invalid_86]

Surprised? Did you read the OP Title?

Surprised as in "where did it go?"

[TommyBoy]

did you not read the OP? It is x2 damage. 2 x 3 = 6.

This does not favor any one weapon dps over another, compared to the current situation, except in the case where you only hit on a roll of 19 or 20. In that case this actually helps the lower crit range weapons more than the others.

either my solution or illuminati's approach will both achieve the same thing. I'm not gonna stand only for my position if another equally effective solution comes along. I'll take either one atm.

sorry was under the inpression that you were adding a 2 to the damage multipliers. But you are still missing the point on the percentage going down which Illuminati seem to have gotten. the issue isnt in barb crit its in the lack of other classes and to scream nerf...er fix is wrong because there is nothing unbalanced by it. what needs to be adjusted is the other melee classes which is what the devs seem to be doing with rangers a patch or two ago and pallies this patch.

[juniorpfactors]

You should retire that fighter and replace it with a barb or ranger!
:P

hmmm. let's see.
After giving movement while reloading to everyone, and the following bug that prevented repeaters from reloading/firing properly, AND the fixing of the ability to hotswap repeaters on your shortcut bar for continuous firing, I rerolled my human shot on the run rogue and made a human fighter.

After introduction of 32 point and the enhancement overhaul (human versatility nerf, boost to dwarves), I rerolled my human fighter as a dwarf tactical fighter (improved trip, stunning blow), with 2 levels of rogue.

After nerf to tactical feats via blanket boss and red named immunities, AND the nerf/fix to evasion in mithral full plate, I rerolled my dwarf fighter to a human fighter with 2 rogue and 2 pally.

Then barbs get critical rage and rangers get rams might and tempest (which are both detractions from pnp, and something one could absolutely not plan for). So I have vhlader, a pure ranger str/con based, dwarf, in the making, nearly enough XP for level 9, but I'm just waiting now to see if fighters get ANY love.

Cause really, I'm quite tired of rerolling and replacing tonnes of raid loot. This game is quite aggravating for a powergaming min-maxer, compared to normal pnp, where everything is laid out and you can plan the optimal build for a given edition without things turning upsidedown midway.

Heck if we could respec or transfer bound raid loot or de-level a character, I'd be fine with whatever Turbine threw at me. But 4 retired alts that were at one point optimal and decked out with raid loot/tomes, but became sub 100% because the game changed (i.e. not because I made a mistake in the build), and subsequent nerfs to the raid loot mechanic (used to solo/duo/trio raids, for a much greater amount of bound loot) has got me to the point where I'm *almost* ready to play something else and stop wasting time bouncing around. I can't play a character and be fully happy about it if I do not see it as the absolute best build available. It's like, the little devil on my left shoulder says: "vhlad, you can make XXXX instead of YYYY and be 2% better!" And then the other devil on my right shoulder goes all stab stabby until I reroll. **** you Turbine! If you change and rebalance the game you should allow respecs, like other MMOs!

lol...o ya i deleted the fighter a month ago.....my barb is 14....lol you would have run the shroud with him 2 nights ago if your leader would have accepted me when I tried to join...LOL ... he said I dont know how to follow directions.... the lfm was 15-16 only LOL so he immediately rejected me....some people will never learn. Ya I have a ranger,Bard, 2clerics, 2socs, paly, Barb and another paly mule

jrp

[Gunga]

sorry was under the inpression that you were adding a 2 to the damage multipliers. But you are still missing the point on the percentage going down which Illuminati seem to have gotten. the issue isnt in barb crit its in the lack of other classes and to scream nerf...er fix is wrong because there is nothing unbalanced by it. what needs to be adjusted is the other melee classes which is what the devs seem to be doing with rangers a patch or two ago and pallies this patch.

Nah. I don't think that is the issue. I think the issue is the overpowered enhancement line Improved Crit Rage. The range should not be expanded, but multiplied. The reasons are listed in the thread.

[TommyBoy]

As has been started many, many times in other threads, the ability for an enraged, frenzied barbarian to maintain the accuracy to crit more often is completely ludicrous. A barbarian can accurately find the weaknesses in an enemies defenses and thereby score more critical hits???

Why does a crittical hit have to be a weakness in an enemies defense. In my head if my barb was to say slam his great ax into your chest with such force that buried it nearly to the handle that would critticly damage you. Though I guess having an 8 to 10 inch gash about 7 or 8 inches deep probably would conistute a weakness in your deffense.

[Gunga]

Why does a crittical hit have to be a weakness in an enemies defense. In my head if my barb was to say slam his great ax into your chest with such force that buried it nearly to the handle that would critticly damage you. Though I guess having an 8 to 10 inch gash about 7 or 8 inches deep probably would conistute a weakness in your deffense.

The correct answer is: (above).

[Invalid_86]

Why does a crittical hit have to be a weakness in an enemies defense. In my head if my barb was to say slam his great ax into your chest with such force that buried it nearly to the handle that would critticly damage you. Though I guess having an 8 to 10 inch gash about 7 or 8 inches deep probably would conistute a weakness in your deffense.

Remember that not all hits in DnD are "hits", which explains why we can take repeated direct hits from axes without dying.

Also anything that a barbarian can do with rage a fighter should be able to duplicate with skill when it comes to criticals. Barbarians shouldn't get a bonus on criticals to begin with.

Although it is a moot point- what you described is a killing blow, crit or not.

[TommyBoy]

Nah. I don't think that is the issue. I think the issue is the overpowered enhancement line Improved Crit Rage. The range should not be expanded, but multiplied. The reasons are listed in the thread.

As you see it and there have been plenty of reasons not to change it. I personnally don't find the crit range being the issue except on a few weapons/ builds that have become popullar over few weeks. Still the majority of barbs tend to use the THf and the crit range deosn't drasticly effect that. Truth of the matter is the people that are complaining are the same that would complain about any class thats better then them and in a month they will be complaining about the next thing that makes there character not seem right. Example all the fighters two weeks ago complaining that they didnt get Tempest.

Barbs give up a lot to get near perma rage and to get the best twf or thf. If you build in a direction slightly different then you wont get either. (ie mutli classing more then one or two lvls, toughness line, resistance line, ect The problem lines in the weeknesses of other classes and the players themselves.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

In the Shroud Banishers are useless on any difficulty cause we're essentially on their plane (Or at least between planes) and theres nothing to Smite that I recall off hand.

This is why I dont think we need to nerf Brbs. Just give us new adventures that are adjusted for player tactics.

Let them have their flavor of the Mod for awhile....then give us new monsters and areas that make those banishers useless.

[TommyBoy]

Remember that not all hits in DnD are "hits", which explains why we can take repeated direct hits from axes without dying.

Also anything that a barbarian can do with rage a fighter should be able to duplicate with skill when it comes to criticals. Barbarians shouldn't get a bonus on criticals to begin with.

Although it is a moot point- what you described is a killing blow, crit or not.

I understand that as I have argued the percentage point vrs kruds extra multiplier under that logic. The skill function is why fighters get an aproved attack feat line to represent there skill in not missing much and crit accrurcy enhancement line to represent there ability make a devasting attack work. Same logic of not every hit lands apllies to crits too. not ever crit confirms. My point is a critical is supposed to be a highly damaging blow not necarilly an accurate one.

if you play the percentages fighters are actually able to hit crits more often. They are able to take a +2 to attack feat, +3 attack enhancement line, and a +8 crit accuracy enhancement line means they would actually hit more often and thier crits would hit more often. Barbs just have a high percentage of rolling a crit not sticking it. So to me it seems very balanced.

[krud]

Why does a crittical hit have to be a weakness in an enemies defense. In my head if my barb was to say slam his great ax into your chest with such force that buried it nearly to the handle that would critticly damage you. Though I guess having an 8 to 10 inch gash about 7 or 8 inches deep probably would conistute a weakness in your deffense.

In general, there is nothing wrong with your logic (except where pointy, poking weapons are concerned), that's why critical hits do more damage. It is the non-dps affects that have nothing to do with applying a greater force that are being adressed here. No one wants to nerf barbarian dps, only the other non-dps related affects. Either hit hard more often (illuminati's approch) or hit even harder less often (my approach), both will work, as long as the non-dps related affects are not increased as a result.

[Vhlad]

lol...o ya i deleted the fighter a month ago.....my barb is 14....lol you would have run the shroud with him 2 nights ago if your leader would have accepted me when I tried to join...LOL ... he said I dont know how to follow directions.... the lfm was 15-16 only LOL so he immediately rejected me....some people will never learn. Ya I have a ranger,Bard, 2clerics, 2socs, paly, Barb and another paly mule

jrp

I wasn't there. If I was I would have told him to invite ya, since you have jrp in all your alts so it's pretty hard to not know who you are. A lot of the Indago's don't pug much though so I can't blame the lack of recognition. But at least you got a reply, which seems to be better than most other groups where you click join and sit there for 5 minutes until you read 'declined because group is full'. :P