Cleric who can melee

[samho]

Yeah, but with a 28 point build there is no way I could get my Con up to 14 on build, without, at least, completely gimping my wisdom. Also by mid-game and end-game, I was under the impression I'd end up really having to focus on healing alot more as things got tougher. Maybe with some luck, I can get some gear and tomes to help increase my Con to a better level.

--Me

You don't need too much INT and CHA unless you have some specific requirement in mind.

14 STR
08 DEX
14 CON
08 INT
18 WIS
08 CHA

Then you got something pretty close to the so called "stealth cleric"

However, you can still experiment your build and see how it works.

[EDIT]
OH and, 2 less wisdom wasn't going to *gimp* your wisdom, it's just -1 DC and 26 sp at level 16 (if you go CLE16), so you can use them to build a more well-round character

[Zenako]

Yeah, but with a 28 point build there is no way I could get my Con up to 14 on build, without, at least, completely gimping my wisdom. Also by mid-game and end-game, I was under the impression I'd end up really having to focus on healing alot more as things got tougher. Maybe with some luck, I can get some gear and tomes to help increase my Con to a better level.

--Me

Ah, but you see, except for a few more spell points the extra WIS will not help your healing ability at all since there is no resistence to overcome. Going for maxmium wisdom is the way to go for someone building a character/cleric that intends to focus on the spell casting side of things (My 9th level cleric looks a lot like the one you have, but with more CHA and less INT and STR). She was intent on being a very good clerical caster, with melee being an afterthought. My capped cleric started with some of the same ideas you have expressed and did not go for max WIS. I think she is sitting at 30 now with +2 tome and +6 Item and perhaps a few (2 or 3) points of WIS from Enhancements and at level ups (4,8,12 and 16). She started with a 15 or 16 WIS and something like 14 or 15 STR and a 12 CON IIRC. She sits at 23 STR IIRC all the time. (Still carries a Rage Ring to hit 25 if I need to for a Rune...man does that irk the fighters...).

Now you also need to consider the term gimped... If you are the type of player who focuses on having optimized characters, that will not be happy with one that succeeds at something 75% of the time instead of 80% of the time if you had maxed out something, then that is a seperate issue. The difference in spell success when casting at mobs in their chance to save (between starting with 16 or an 18) is 5%. If they would save on a 12 with the 16 WIS, they need a 13 to save with the 18 WIS casting the spell. Those build points can give you a lot more overall bang for the buck at start if spread around judiciously.

[Cowdenicus]

You don't need too much INT and CHA unless you have some specific requirement in mind.

14 STR
08 DEX
14 CON
08 INT
18 WIS
08 CHA

Then you got something pretty close to the so called "stealth cleric"

However, you can still experiment your build and see how it works.

[EDIT]
OH and, 2 less wisdom wasn't going to *gimp* your wisdom, it's just -1 DC and 26 sp at level 16 (if you go CLE16), so you can use them to build a more well-round character

This is all very true.

For any cleric I would advise a minimum 16 wisdom 14 str and 14 con period.

[kravi]

Ah, but you see, except for a few more spell points the extra WIS will not help your healing ability at all since there is no resistence to overcome. Going for maxmium wisdom is the way to go for someone building a character/cleric that intends to focus on the spell casting side of things (My 9th level cleric looks a lot like the one you have, but with more CHA and less INT and STR). She was intent on being a very good clerical caster, with melee being an afterthought. My capped cleric started with some of the same ideas you have expressed and did not go for max WIS. I think she is sitting at 30 now with +2 tome and +6 Item and perhaps a few (2 or 3) points of WIS from Enhancements and at level ups (4,8,12 and 16). She started with a 15 or 16 WIS and something like 14 or 15 STR and a 12 CON IIRC. She sits at 23 STR IIRC all the time. (Still carries a Rage Ring to hit 25 if I need to for a Rune...man does that irk the fighters...).

Now you also need to consider the term gimped... If you are the type of player who focuses on having optimized characters, that will not be happy with one that succeeds at something 75% of the time instead of 80% of the time if you had maxed out something, then that is a seperate issue. The difference in spell success when casting at mobs in their chance to save (between starting with 16 or an 18) is 5%. If they would save on a 12 with the 16 WIS, they need a 13 to save with the 18 WIS casting the spell. Those build points can give you a lot more overall bang for the buck at start if spread around judiciously.

I'm not a power gamer, but I do like being good "enough" to get the job done. The feal of my cleric (since I refuse to reroll, again, because then I'll never get a character anywhere) is changing. I'm hoping the Str12 and Con10 will be enough that I'm not completely useless in combat (though I never intended to actually do real dps in melee combat), and the high Wis is making me think I'll be more of a casting cleric than I originally thought. I'm now thinking this cleric will kinda end up being a jack of all trades healer. Good healing, good casting, and "meh" melee. Hopefully with some tomes and future attribute points I can eventually up the strength and constitution a bit, and focus on upping the wisdom less (now that it's already high). Can this build be a viable healer at high levels? What do I need to do to make sure I'm a viable healer? And obviously I'm going to have to use a bit more offensive spells than I originally thought as well.

--Me

[Zenako]

I'm not a power gamer, but I do like being good "enough" to get the job done. The feal of my cleric (since I refuse to reroll, again, because then I'll never get a character anywhere) is changing. I'm hoping the Str12 and Con10 will be enough that I'm not completely useless in combat (though I never intended to actually do real dps in melee combat), and the high Wis is making me think I'll be more of a casting cleric than I originally thought. I'm now thinking this cleric will kinda end up being a jack of all trades healer. Good healing, good casting, and "meh" melee. Hopefully with some tomes and future attribute points I can eventually up the strength and constitution a bit, and focus on upping the wisdom less (now that it's already high). Can this build be a viable healer at high levels? What do I need to do to make sure I'm a viable healer? And obviously I'm going to have to use a bit more offensive spells than I originally thought as well.

--Me

As a healer, you should be golden for stats. Same thing for being a casting cleric. High WIS is THE stat of importance, controls both the DC on the spells and how many Spell points you get.

As far as combat goes, if you are wearing good armor, and tote along a shield your AC will be ok for quite a while. Personally I try to get some good Adamantine Armor on my Clerics especially those without any dex bonus to speak of. Adamantine Full Plate will substract 3 points from every melee hit against you. Not much in the end game when whacks are doign 40-60 points a pop, but quite useful when the kobolds are hitting for d8's. D8's -3 = not much damage. Even if you are not hitting well, just being in the combat can help your allies hit better (and harder if they are rogues) by giving them flanking bonuses. You can also focus on "special" weapons instead of DPS stuff. Weapons like Cursespewing, and Destruction (-4 to targets AC after you hit them with it), and later on things like Paralyzation and Disruption. All those work on contact, and do not need criticals to come into play. Plenty of ways to be part of combat and contribute.

[kravi]

Hmmm. So as I approach level three, I need to know what feat to select. I was thinking Quicken or "Empower Healing", but with extend spell things are already pricey. I also thought about "toughness" or discipline/combat casting. Any thoughts?

--Me

[sirgog]

I'm not a power gamer, but I do like being good "enough" to get the job done. The feal of my cleric (since I refuse to reroll, again, because then I'll never get a character anywhere) is changing. I'm hoping the Str12 and Con10 will be enough that I'm not completely useless in combat (though I never intended to actually do real dps in melee combat), and the high Wis is making me think I'll be more of a casting cleric than I originally thought. I'm now thinking this cleric will kinda end up being a jack of all trades healer. Good healing, good casting, and "meh" melee. Hopefully with some tomes and future attribute points I can eventually up the strength and constitution a bit, and focus on upping the wisdom less (now that it's already high). Can this build be a viable healer at high levels? What do I need to do to make sure I'm a viable healer? And obviously I'm going to have to use a bit more offensive spells than I originally thought as well.

--Me

Based on these stats, I'd consider yourself a healing and offensive casting cleric. This doesn't mean you can't melee, but you won't be able to stand up to endgame elite mobs, or endgame normal rednameds.

You might regret the 10 Constitution, however. I always recommend a 12 or higher for all races.

[Zenako]

Hmmm. So as I approach level three, I need to know what feat to select. I was thinking Quicken or "Empower Healing", but with extend spell things are already pricey. I also thought about "toughness" or discipline/combat casting. Any thoughts?

--Me

Well keep in mind that Feats can be swapped out later so nothing you choose now is forever.

Also Meta magics only boost the cost of spells they effect. So when casting healing spells there is no cost for Extend, since there is nothing to extend. Quicken is nice, BUT, often not needed until higher levels. Often taken at the 9th or 12th level feat timeframe, about the time you are getting powerful killing spells and the HEAL spell. Personally at those levels, either Empower Healing or Empower (if you see yourself casting a lot of Searing Lights and spells like that). Most lower level cleric spells do small amounts of damage PLUS an Effect like stunning. Empower will only boost the Damage and is not worth it for things like Soundburst. Without being a Dwarf or Fighter, the toughness Feat is poor return on Feat Investment generally.

Be sure to keep your healing Enhancements boosted, to try and obtain the best Devotion boost item (helps with healing spells) or Potency (helps with ALL spells) you can use. Those are boosts to the power of the spells that do not cost any more spell points to use. A Greater Devotion 3 scepter for example will increase the effectiveness of any 1st thru 3rd level healing spell by 40% for no extra spell point cost. The goal is to get maximum bang for your buck from every spell you cast. If you can boost that CMW spell to the point where you are doing 30 points of healing with it, that is a lot lot better than just a more normal 15 for example. Lots of threads on the various synergies for spell casting.

[kravi]

So no advice on what feats to take? (Don't get me wrong, the advice on what feats not to take is very helpful, including things to take later). But I'd like, at least, to strengthen my build as much as possible, and level 3 is nigh? And I'm not sure how useful discipline or combat casting is right now (though I'm sure it will be more useful later).

--Me

EDIT: Thought about Spell Penetration as a feat also, could be useful even for a lower level caster/healer...?

[Angelus_dead]

So no advice on what feats to take? (Don't get me wrong, the advice on what feats not to take is very helpful, including things to take later). But I'd like, at least, to strengthen my build as much as possible, and level 3 is nigh? And I'm not sure how useful discipline or combat casting is right now (though I'm sure it will be more useful later).

Forget Discipline or Combat Casting (and SF Concentrate too). Your plain ranks in Concentration should be all you need, occasionally supplemented with Quicken at high level.

A melee cleric gets Extend as his first feat, then for your second feat make sure you can operate a good weapon. If you're elf/drow then you know rapiers naturally. If you took a fighter/paladin level then that handled it. If you get the Sovereign Host faith enhancement that'll let you use a Longsword. Otherwise you should probably spend a feat on learning a weapon, either a Khopesh or Greataxe depending on if you'd like to use a shield. The next feat you'll probably want is Power Attack (save it for past level 5).

EDIT: Thought about Spell Penetration as a feat also, could be useful even for a lower level caster/healer...?

Spell Penetration is completely useless for low-level characters.

[Impaqt]

Forget Discipline or Combat Casting (and SF Concentrate too). Your plain ranks in Concentration should be all you need, occasionally supplemented with Quicken at high level.

A melee cleric gets Extend as his first feat, then for your second feat make sure you can operate a good weapon. If you're elf/drow then you know rapiers naturally. If you took a fighter/paladin level then that handled it. If you get the Sovereign Host faith enhancement that'll let you use a Longsword. Otherwise you should probably spend a feat on learning a weapon, either a Khopesh or Greataxe depending on if you'd like to use a shield. The next feat you'll probably want is Power Attack (save it for past level 5).


Spell Penetration is completely useless for low-level characters.

Power Attack with a Base 12 Str?

thats funny.........

My Feat recomendations are in the Build.

[kravi]

Power Attack with a Base 12 Str?

thats funny.........

My Feat recomendations are in the Build.

Yeah, but your feat recommendation for lvl 3 is Khopesh, and I'm going to stick with a longsword, I think (especially seeing as I'll be less melee than I originally intended).

I'm very obviously deviating from your build, and I think going towards more of a caster build. It might not have been deliberate, but I can live with it.

--Me

[Impaqt]

Yeah, but your feat recommendation for lvl 3 is Khopesh, and I'm going to stick with a longsword, I think (especially seeing as I'll be less melee than I originally intended).

I'm very obviously deviating from your build, and I think going towards more of a caster build. It might not have been deliberate, but I can live with it.

--Me

Well, THe build also recomends to Replace Kopesh with Maximize at level 11.... No reason to not just pick Maximize up at level 3 (Or shift around the Mental Toughnesses).

Mental Toughness
Improved Mental toughness
Extend
Empower
Maximize
Quicken

More Healer Focus? Swap Empower Spell with Empower Healing.

More Ofensive Caster, Stick with Empower Spell.

Then ya got 1 more.. SPell Penn is my Pref with od 6/7 mobs.... But there are other viableoptions as well.

[kravi]

Well, THe build also recomends to Replace Kopesh with Maximize at level 11.... No reason to not just pick Maximize up at level 3 (Or shift around the Mental Toughnesses).

Mental Toughness
Improved Mental toughness
Extend
Empower
Maximize
Quicken

More Healer Focus? Swap Empower Spell with Empower Healing.

More Ofensive Caster, Stick with Empower Spell.

Then ya got 1 more.. SPell Penn is my Pref with od 6/7 mobs.... But there are other viableoptions as well.

I've got mental toughness already, don't see "improved mental toughness" as an option.
I have Extend already as well (as per your advice).
I'm worried about Maximize because I don't have enough spell points for it to be cost effective yet (and don't do enough damage for x2 damage to really be worthwhile yet).
I may take Empower healing, because my cure light wounds don't seem to do a lot, but +10 spell points for 50% increase may be a losing proposition.
Trying to stick with a healer build, though I'd also like to have some decent offensive weapons to use.

--Me

[Angelus_dead]

Power Attack with a Base 12 Str?
thats funny.........

It's only funny if you're ignorant of the ease with which a +1 strength tome can be acquired.

[Impaqt]

It's only funny if you're ignorant of the ease with which a +1 strength tome can be acquired.

So a+1 STR TOme can make up for -5 To hit for +5 Damage on a Non DPS Build?

Please Explain.

Eat a +5 Tome.... DOnt matter to the build.. THe DPS wil never make Power attack worth it.

[Zuldar]

If you don't mind being more melee and less cleric, you could try 10cleric/4ranger/2fighter.

You could easily achieve a str in the upper 30's, and in the 40's with a pair of madstone boots. That combined with a max divine favor and ram's might would be some good damage.

The downside is you won't get heal or 30 point resists till the next cap increase.

[Arianrhod]

Yeah, but with a 28 point build there is no way I could get my Con up to 14 on build, without, at least, completely gimping my wisdom. Also by mid-game and end-game, I was under the impression I'd end up really having to focus on healing alot more as things got tougher. Maybe with some luck, I can get some gear and tomes to help increase my Con to a better level.

--Me

Actually, that last point of wisdom cost you 3 build points, which could have bought you 3 more con. Stat points cost more at creation once you go above 14. (15 & 16 cost 2 points each, 17 & 18 cost 3 each). Also, if you felt underwhelming at 1st level, part of that might be the 0 base attack bonus - you get to swing twice as fast as soon as you hit 2nd level, and until you get there, it feels like you're swinging through jello