Cleric who can melee

[kravi]

Okay, so I've gone through myriad searches, and poked around a bit. I'm rather new at DDO (and I haven't played D&D PnP since 1994 [or so] - 2nd edition). So I need some help.

I'm new to the game, though not to MMOs in general. I am looking to create a Cleric build, human, with 28 Att points (obviously, right? ). Cleric needs to be a good healer in groups, and I'd like to be decent in melee too (obviously not barbarian level). So I'm looking for an awkward ballance between primary healer and someone who can hold his own in melee.

Can someone help me out here? I'm not even sure where I should put my limited attribute points.

--Me

[Impaqt]

THread Right below this.. (Well, Probobly 2 down now that I bumped this)
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=142945

[kravi]

ooops. I saw "stealth battle-cleric" and thought Rogue + Battle - Cleric So I didn't even look

--Me

[sirgog]

I want to STRONGLY encourage you to choose Dwarf over Human, due to the massive increase in hitpoints you will have at endgame. At endgame, you will NEED those extra HP to be able to stand toe-to-toe with raid bosses like Arrietrikos and the Black Abbot (whenever that raid gets made playable).


If you want to be effective in the role of primary healer, you will absolutely, positively, require 11 or more Cleric levels in your build (the Heal spell, cast from SP not scrolls, is just that good, as is Mass Cure Moderate Wounds). Most players choose to take 14 or 15 cleric levels in these types of builds. Here's a couple of possible level splits, and the reasons for and against.

These are the common, popular builds.

Clr16: The 'stealth' battlecleric, as linked to above.

Clr15/Ftr1: You gain 1 feat and martial weapon proficiency. You'll be about as good as a primary healer as a Clr14 (you won't have the same Wisdom a Clr15 specced for healing would have, and hence will have less SP), and you'll have access to every spell in the game including the excellent Mass Death Ward.

Clr15/Pal1: As above, but you lose the feat to instead pick up extra SP. The loss of the feat and the 1st level Fighter enhancements will hurt a little, but the SP is a solid gain.

Clr14/Ftr2: You lose level 8 spells (and will not get Mass Heal until level 19 - this is a BIG loss when the cap goes to 18). You gain one more feat over Clr15/Ftr1, which likely means you can take Improved Crit: Piercing in addition to IC: Slashing - this will help you get full use out of some of the best weapons in the game such as Rapiers with on-crit procs like the devastating Puncturing, Banishing and Smiting.

Clr14/Pal2: As Clr15/Pal1, but if you have the build points to get a high Charisma, you will have stellar saves. Worth considering if you have both 32-point builds and access to top-end gear such as +2 tomes, +6 stat boosters - probably not suited to a newer player to DDO.

Clr13/Pal2/Ftr1: Very similar to Clr14/Pal2 but one more combat feat and less SP. No Mass Heal till level 20.

Clr12/Ftr2/Pal2: More feats, no access EVER to Mass Heal or True Resurrection, think carefully before sacrificing those spells!

And now some of the more unusual builds, incorporating Rogue levels:

Clr13/Rog2/Ftr1: Basic Evasion battlecleric - mediocre heals, modest ability to disarm traps as a backup trapmonkey, very gear intensive.

Clr11/Rog3/Pal2: Something I'm considering building. Dependant upon gear and 32-point builds so unsuitable for you, this would be a Dex-based finesse fighter, with evasion, stellar saves, modest sneak attack damage and some capacity to heal.

Anyway, have a think about these and decide which way you want to go,, then I can help with more info.

[samho]

Clr15/Ftr1: You gain 1 feat and martial weapon proficiency. You'll be about as good as a primary healer as a Clr14 (you won't have the same Wisdom a Clr15 specced for healing would have, and hence will have less SP), and you'll have access to every spell in the game including the excellent Mass Death Ward.

Some correction about CLE15/Any_Class_1:

Actually your healing power is as good as any *pure* CLE15, slightly less than CLE16 -- which only happen when casting mass cure spell (and has minimize difference, do you really worry about your MCMW / MCLW heal 1-2 point less? ); class splash make no different here about your sp / wisdom and healing ability ( which I mean CLE15/FTR1 vs CLE15, actually CLE15/FTR1 can have more sp than CLE15; however, it's no doubt that CLE16 could have more sp than CLE15/Non_Ranger_Paladin_Sorcerer_Bard_1 ). So long as you can access Cleric Life Magic IV (which require 10 level cleric) and Heal (which require 11 level cleric, but I would say has 12+ would be better, 15 is more than enough since Heal cap at level 15), you are golden; anything else is a plus but not absolutely necessary.

[sirgog]

Some correction about CLE15/Any_Class_1:

Actually your healing power is as good as any *pure* CLE15, slightly less than CLE16 -- which only happen when casting mass cure spell (and has minimize difference, do you really worry about your MCMW / MCLW heal 1-2 point less? ); class splash make no different here about your sp / wisdom and healing ability ( which I mean CLE15/FTR1 vs CLE15, actually CLE15/FTR1 can have more sp than CLE15; however, it's no doubt that CLE16 could have more sp than CLE15/Non_Ranger_Paladin_Sorcerer_Bard_1 ). So long as you can access Cleric Life Magic IV (which require 10 level cleric) and Heal (which require 11 level cleric, but I would say has 12+ would be better, 15 is more than enough since Heal cap at level 15), you are golden; anything else is a plus but not absolutely necessary.

Disagree.

The OP wanted to be able to melee properly. This means sacrificing some Wisdom (and probably Charisma) to boost Strength to an acceptable level. It also means spending AP on melee abilities (such as Dwarf Axe Attack), which means probably no critical chance/critical multiplier upgrades on cure spells.

Numot heals about as well as a Clr14 for these reasons - less SP than a Clr15, no crits, and better Heals (due to 150 base not 140).

[samho]

Disagree.

The OP wanted to be able to melee properly. This means sacrificing some Wisdom (and probably Charisma) to boost Strength to an acceptable level. It also means spending AP on melee abilities (such as Dwarf Axe Attack), which means probably no critical chance/critical multiplier upgrades on cure spells.

Numot heals about as well as a Clr14 for these reasons - less SP than a Clr15, no crits, and better Heals (due to 150 base not 140).

While my last comment was just generally speaking, I would love to point it out (base on my various cleric experience):



You can melee at Strength 22.

Why Str 22 ? yes Str 22 means you have -4 to-hit/damage roll compare with Strength 30 Battle cleric (and keep this in mind, maybe so called battle cleric only have 28 or 26 (even 24) strength), it's not end all -- since Op doesn't want a "barbarian level" melee ability, so he doesn't need to have Power Attack with his Strength 22 cleric -- what he need is pick up the right weapon to against the right enemy. (Just a side note, my STR 22 casting focus cleric usually can take 2nd/3rd/4th kill count at shroud part 1 -- and of course it's not because I spam Destruction or Slay Living on my victim )

Strength 22 require base 14, 6 Str Item, 1 Human Ability, 1 tome, and I don't think start with Strength 14 is anything sacrifice your healing ability (and I don't consider DV/Turn is anything to do healing ability, it's for support but not for healing); which leave you enough point to start with wisdom 18, take cleric wisdom 3, human Wisdom I, +2 tome and +6 item to make you a wisdom 34 cleric (and again, Wisdom 34 cleric heal as good as Wisdom 17 cleric, just the wisdom 17 cleric has much smaller sp pool).




So my point is, class splash like CLE15/FTR1 doesn't suddenly decide how good you can heal with or how many sp you must have. It's what kind of role you want to fit in and how you put your state point at. If you want melee like a second tank or even main tank, then of course you will not have enough point to max up everything (STR/CON/WIS/DEX), SO DOES CLE16 -- you can still have your cleric 16 to behave like a second tank and NOT have maximize spell point. Like I point out in another thread, the real different of CLE 15/FTR 1 and CLE16 is 80sp + (1 sp * YOUR_WISDOM_MOD ); anything else is how you craft your character.

[Arianrhod]

I'd go with the "stealth battlecleric" concept. Any pure cleric can melee so-called "trash mobs" adequately; it just takes decent equipment (stuff you can buy from the auction house - not talking raid gear) and reasonable stat allocation (you're not likely to go with 8 strength & con anyway, so that's pretty easy to manage). For the really tough fights, you'll probably be wanting to use spells anyway (healing, damage, or both), so lack of top-of-the-line melee ability won't hurt you there.

[sirgog]

I'd go with the "stealth battlecleric" concept. Any pure cleric can melee so-called "trash mobs" adequately; it just takes decent equipment (stuff you can buy from the auction house - not talking raid gear) and reasonable stat allocation (you're not likely to go with 8 strength & con anyway, so that's pretty easy to manage). For the really tough fights, you'll probably be wanting to use spells anyway (healing, damage, or both), so lack of top-of-the-line melee ability won't hurt you there.

This is a viable option, but I prefer Numot's strategy of maxxed Str so that I can melee the Pit Fiend on hard no problems (given a Tier 1 weapon, I could probably hack him on elite, yet to try).

If you go with 22-24 strength, you will be able to melee endgame mobs effectively if and only if you have two or more of 1) Greater Heroism 2) Bard songs and 3) good +accuracy weapons for them - either +5 *** of righteousness or +2 or better greater bane. Otherwise, you'll miss most mobs on an 11.

With the high Str build, you sacrifice some casting potential to gain the ability to melee mobs effectively with only one of those 3 conditions met. And when you ahve all 3, you are a powerhouse.

Anyway OP, it's your call. If you like my suggestions, let me know and I'll elaborate on them - if you prefer the Clr16 builds, go with the one posted above.

[Impaqt]

What exactly does Greater Heroism Give you that a L14+ bard song that makes it better to melee the Pit Fiend on hard or Elite if you have "Both"?

Come on folks..... We're talking to someone new to the game rolling his first 28 pt Cleric and your giving him advice on how to mele the Pit fiend on hard or elite?????????????

[sirgog]

What exactly does Greater Heroism Give you that a L14+ bard song that makes it better to melee the Pit Fiend on hard or Elite if you have "Both"?

Come on folks..... We're talking to someone new to the game rolling his first 28 pt Cleric and your giving him advice on how to mele the Pit fiend on hard or elite?????????????

I give the advice because I made my first toon with none, got them up to the then level-cap (14), then realised I'd made a toon that wasn't suited to endgame play at all. Haven't the heart to delete Charwyn, but never play her either.

The main problem with Charwyn is that her attacks cannot land without significant buffs. Hitting Mod 5 rednameds (say Kai-Teng Faluza - edit - just used the name to illustrate the first one i could think of) on elite requires either good buffs, or rolls of 15+. And that happened mainly because I didn't max out Strength. Charwyn would have the same problems on the new stuff on hard or the Shroud on normal.

I make the recommendations because we all get attached to our first characters, and I don't want the OP making irreversable decisions that they might regret later. (Note I say might - if the OP is happy with meleeing trash mobs, using offensive spells on bosses and healing, then I would go with the 22-24 endgame Str route).

[Impaqt]

I give the advice because I made my first toon with none, got them up to the then level-cap (14), then realised I'd made a toon that wasn't suited to endgame play at all. Haven't the heart to delete Charwyn, but never play her either.

The main problem with Charwyn is that her attacks cannot land without significant buffs. Hitting Mod 5 rednameds (say Kai-Teng Faluza) on elite requires either good buffs, or rolls of 15+. And that happened mainly because I didn't max out Strength. Charwyn would have the same problems on the new stuff on hard or the Shroud on normal.

I make the recommendations because we all get attached to our first characters, and I don't want the OP making irreversable decisions that they might regret later. (Note I say might - if the OP is happy with meleeing trash mobs, using offensive spells on bosses and healing, then I would go with the 22-24 endgame Str route).

Why would you want to Melee Kai-Tang when you can throw a HEAL or Blade barrier at him that hits for more than any melee could ever hope to hit him for?

As for the GH question.. the only thing GH Gives ya when ya got a high level bard around is +4 Saves... I dont see how +4 Saves can mean the difference between meleeing the pitfied on elite or not.(For a cleric)

[Zenako]

Clerics can do it almost all, but they cannot EXCEL at everything at once.

So figure out what you are wanting to do the best, and then what you can do less well.

Stats for a well rounded cleric, who can fight ok, cast ok, etc. Decent STR and CON are good. Unless you are going for real high AC build (which is hard for a cleric to reach due to lack of higher order enhancements etc) 10 dex is probably more than enough. Want Good, but probably not maxed WIS. Can put INT stat in the dumper, since you will NOT be a skill based character, and leave it at something like an 8. CHA affects your number of Turn attempts, and how well they work and while nice, are not critical to a cleric with martial tendancies, HOWEVER, you can for a few AP take some enhancements to get good use of those turns for extra healing or spell points for the party. Turns are based on active CHA so spells and items that boost CHA will increase your CHA for that purpose.

Keep in mind that FEATS and Enhancements can be changed in the game so nothing about those is forever locked in. Many players end up swapping feats later on as they move from one part of the game to another. For example my cleric swapped out a semi useless feat at end game for her to take a Spell Penetration Feat while also redoing some enhancments. Going from getting past SR on some end game devils 20% of the time to 40%+ of the time is a big thing. Or hitting others 95% instead of 75% helps a lot too. Starting Stats are "forever" as are skill point allocations.

[kravi]

Wow, a whole lot of responses, all of them good

Okay, so I rolled up the basics based on the stealth battle cleric. Caveat here: while I'd like a very effective build based on the criteria above, for fluff reasons I went with a human, even if it disadvantages me somewhat. Also leveled up to 2 last night.


Akivah Level 2 Cleric
Attributes (28 point build, and I'm guessing because I'm at the office and can't see my toon):
Str: 12
Dex: 10
Con: 10 (I wanted 12, but didn't have the points)
Int: 10 (needed those extra skill points)
Wis: 18 (that is why I am so short)
Cha: 10 (didn't want a penalty).

I dumped skill points into (at level 2):
Concentration: 5
Diplomacy: 5
Ballance: 2.5

Feats are:
Extend Spell
Mental Toughness

Enhancements:
Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Cleric Life Magic I
Cleric Concentration I
Follower of the Sovereign Host (for longsword love)

This is my build so far. Is it salvageable? I seem to kinda suck with melee, but alot of that is because we were running hard/elite quests last night, and I've never done hard/elite (always solod on solo/normal).

I have no tomes, nor will I get any in the near future, I think. I was given (I didn't ask, or solicit, or try to mooch) a random set of FPM +2 which I wear. Also have heavy iron shield and a longsword/heavy iron mace.

--Me

[Impaqt]

No reason for the 10 Dex or 18 Wisdom on a 28pt Character.. I would of went 8 and 17 and put the extra points into CON.

AS for melee, Bless and Divine Favor should be on your hotbar for sure. that exra +2 to Hit is Important if youw ant to melee.

[kravi]

No reason for the 10 Dex or 18 Wisdom on a 28pt Character.. I would of went 8 and 17 and put the extra points into CON.

AS for melee, Bless and Divine Favor should be on your hotbar for sure. that exra +2 to Hit is Important if youw ant to melee.

Yeah, I saw the notes at the bottom of the "stealth cleric" thread regarding 28 point builds, but only after I rolled up my toon As I am quite fond of him, I'm going to have to struggle, I think, to make him viable. He did seem a bit squishy before the +2 FPM, and I'm sure he'll be squishy again soon.

Even with these attributes, can he be viable?

--Me

[Zenako]

Wow, a whole lot of responses, all of them good

Okay, so I rolled up the basics based on the stealth battle cleric. Caveat here: while I'd like a very effective build based on the criteria above, for fluff reasons I went with a human, even if it disadvantages me somewhat. Also leveled up to 2 last night.


Akivah Level 2 Cleric
Attributes (28 point build, and I'm guessing because I'm at the office and can't see my toon):
Str: 12
Dex: 10
Con: 10 (I wanted 12, but didn't have the points)
Int: 10 (needed those extra skill points)
Wis: 18 (that is why I am so short)
Cha: 10 (didn't want a penalty).

I dumped skill points into (at level 2):
Concentration: 5
Diplomacy: 5
Ballance: 2.5

Feats are:
Extend Spell
Mental Toughness

Enhancements:
Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Cleric Life Magic I
Cleric Concentration I
Follower of the Sovereign Host (for longsword love)

This is my build so far. Is it salvageable? I seem to kinda suck with melee, but alot of that is because we were running hard/elite quests last night, and I've never done hard/elite (always solod on solo/normal).

I have no tomes, nor will I get any in the near future, I think. I was given (I didn't ask, or solicit, or try to mooch) a random set of FPM +2 which I wear. Also have heavy iron shield and a longsword/heavy iron mace.

--Me

Salvageable - sure. However by pushing your WIS to max you have, as you have seen, been unable to boost some of your other stats as much. Unless you are planning on doing a lot of offensive spell casting, the extra WIS (for higher Save DC's) will not be exceedingly useful. Had you spread the build points for 17 and 18 WIS to other stats, (3 points each IIRC for a total of 6) you could have bumped up your STR and CON a bit. Skills are ok. Concentration is almost a must with any build.

I would argue that Extend Spell might be overkill at 1st level since you spend double the points for double the duration of most spells. Extend is a useful Meta feat at mid levels and again diminishes in value at end game. However, it is still useful and will be more so as you quickly level up. (I usually wait until 3 or 6th level for Extend on a caster).

As a cleric, do not forget that what makes you different than a Fighter is spells. USE Them for more than healing. Summon Monster 1 is a great 1st level spell. The Dogs are tough compared to low level mobs, will give you +2 flanking bonus to hit if you attack the same target and are totally expendable. IF the kobolds end up doing 60 points of damage to kill your Celestial Dog, that is 60 points of healing you did not need to do for someone in your party. Bless helps everyone at those levels. Since you do have high WIS, that means the chances for enemies to resist your spells is lower. Once you get second level spells, things like Hold Person, and Soundburst can make a world of difference in a quest. While a target is held, all attacks critical the target!!! Quickly a dead target.

Human is a fine choice (and much nicer to look at over the long haul). You get the extra feat and an extra Skill point every level, plus the flexibility of adding to any stat with enhancements.

[Impaqt]

I find a 10 Con to be extremely dificult to maintain any form of melee presense in mid to late game. GOing up to a 14 or 15 con is 32-48 Hit points end game.... WHich may not seem like a ton.. but its 15-20% Boost on this build.

Can it work? Sure.... But you wont be meleeing much past level 7 or so.

[kravi]

I find a 10 Con to be extremely dificult to maintain any form of melee presense in mid to late game. GOing up to a 14 or 15 con is 32-48 Hit points end game.... WHich may not seem like a ton.. but its 15-20% Boost on this build.

Can it work? Sure.... But you wont be meleeing much past level 7 or so.

Yeah, but with a 28 point build there is no way I could get my Con up to 14 on build, without, at least, completely gimping my wisdom. Also by mid-game and end-game, I was under the impression I'd end up really having to focus on healing alot more as things got tougher. Maybe with some luck, I can get some gear and tomes to help increase my Con to a better level.

--Me

[Cowdenicus]

or y ou could do what I did and start a 11 cleric 9 monk.

Great saves, Improved Evasion, ability to cast heal, Full BAB for combat, divine favor, solid flurry of blows potential, great AC, and the ability to heal anything that might happen to yourself.

You cannot beat it in my opinion from a theoretical standpoint.