Devs: Shroud is biased against Casters

[Talon_Moonshadow]

My sorc never has trouble getting into shroud groups. Often they already have a caster so they took LF caster down but why I send a tell they let me in. Could be my caster has a good reputation for making its self useful or that they know I carry reconstuct and heal scrolls. Or the issue could be your casters reputation in the shroud. just guesses here.

This something i do with any class. I look closely at what they already have, and if they are not just waiting for a cleric, or in other quest's cases something they obiously need, I send a join request anyway. Works about half the time. Most people just want to get started.

Of course you could always do the unthinkable and put up your own LFM.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

One of the very few times I have gotten angry in this game was when someone actually yelled at me because although I was in the doorway so that no mobs could get by, I started swinging my weapon. I dont mind different playstyles though I think some of them are asinine, but do NOT yell at me. Of course....in the online enviroment, people feel empowered due to the fact that others who may take offense are not in the room with them to set them straight.

It's a common belief that if you are not blocking, they will get by you. (many people also think you need a shield to do this)

I'm not sure if this is true or not. it does seem that actively blocking is more effective at preventing them from getting by you, but at the same time, I've blocked a door while I was incapped numerous times.....so I'd say definately not necessary.

But if the caster does not have agro and doing enough damage to keep it....well, then it can get ugly.

Also, it is my belief that the caster needs to be far behind the blockers (people should yell at them for that IMO). Far enough so giant creatures and Guardians do not think they cn reach out and touch them.

The STK guardian knocks people back cause he thinks the caster is in his range. The WW Ogres kill door blockers cause he's swinging at the caster.

IMO this is way more important then whether or not the Ftr is swnging his wep or not.

[Kerrn_Siff]

I always pack at least one spare caster in my shroud raids Redundancy is key.

[redoubt]

Is it the developers intentions to make a raid that only requires one caster in it for the raid to be optimal? How would tanks feel if the developers made a raid where you only needed one tank? In the end game the only thing to do is to get your raids in but if you can't get your shroud runs in as a caster because every raid only wants one it severely detracts the enjoyment of the game.

Ever been in the reaver raid? Only one tank required.

It cycles... don't take it so hard. (Oh, and I usually see 2 or 3 in each group.)

[Elsbet]

Average-to-good players on Khyber don't go anywhere near three-caster PUG shroud groups. So you end up with inferrior players that either wipe or cheat.

I'd say this sounds like a Khyber issue and not a Shroud issue based on your and others' comments. I've seen successful Shroud runs with a variety of group configurations. I've been in runs with anywhere from one to four casters, but normally at least two. I've been in runs where most of the casters were replaced with bards. I've run it with anywhere from two to five clerics. I've been in runs with no traditional melee classes and a boatload of rangers. I've seen rogue-only runs and saw that a cleric only run is forming up on Thelanis.

I don't think I've heard of any classes that have any real difficulty getting into the Shroud on Argo. If groups don't want rogues, the rogues go by themselves.

If groups on Khyber can't run Shroud with more than one caster and overloading with melee, then perhaps they need to experiment with different tactics.

[samagee]

Well the next mod apparently has 2 raids.

I've heard the first one will only require 1 Ranger, the rest will be Monks.

The second one can't be completed without at least 8 Halfing Barbarian Throwers.

Cool, I love telekinsising halflings around at enemys.

[Hambo]

Well the next mod apparently has 2 raids.

I've heard the first one will only require 1 Ranger, the rest will be Monks.

The second one can't be completed without at least 8 Halfing Barbarian Throwers.

Halflings throwing Barbarians? I LIKE this idea!

[Thrudh]

Average-to-good players on Khyber don't go anywhere near three-caster PUG shroud groups.

You can't be considered "good" if you can only complete a quest or a raid with an optimal party...

Good players enjoy a challenge...

Let me rephrase that... Good players can HANDLE a challenge...

[Angelus_dead]

You can't be considered "good" if you can only complete a quest or a raid with an optimal party...
Good players enjoy a challenge...
Let me rephrase that... Good players can HANDLE a challenge...

That is quite true. Good players can in fact easily manage The Shroud with an excessive number of wizards and sorcerers, and they frequently do so for reasons of generosity.

But it's also true that good players ENJOY contributing to the success of a quest. And if you're playing the 2nd or 3rd wiz/sorc, then you're not really contributing. You're slowing down part 1 because you can't hurt portals much, and you make parts 4 and 5 slower and possibly more expensive because you contribute neither DPS nor healing. On rare occasions, a mage can heal individual Warforged, but only if the party composition is right, and there's no such thing as Mass Repair Moderate anyhow.

When you're doing Reaver's Fate and 5-9 melee fighters are standing there doing nothing but waiting to loot, at least they're not taking up a slot that could've been used to make the raid more successful. Once you get 3-4 good characters in a Reaver raid, success is assured and other players helping would add only a miniscule improvement (if any). But The Shroud is not the kind of quest where 75% of the team can sit back and do nothing. It goes better the more players are helping- and mages are less able to help than other classes.

[CSFurious]

it could be argued that a "good" player knows what works, has a limited amount of time in which to complete the quest, & just wants to get it done as efficiently as possible

some "good" players do not want a challenge, i.e., they are running the shroud for the 30th time for a few last ingredients & they only have 2 hours to play because their wife is coming home, the kids need to be picked up, there is an exam to study for, etc.

i play on Khyber & sometimes we just want the loot as fast as possible

this subject like the rest of the world is grey, not black or white

to the OP: you do not need more than 2 casters in a shroud group (does not include bards); if you gave me a choice between taking 3 sorcerors into the shroud or 1 wizard & 2 bards, i am taking the latter

You can't be considered "good" if you can only complete a quest or a raid with an optimal party...

Good players enjoy a challenge...

Let me rephrase that... Good players can HANDLE a challenge...

[Elsbet]

to the OP: you do not need more than 2 casters in a shroud group (does not include bards); if you gave me a choice between taking 3 sorcerors into the shroud or 1 wizard & 2 bards, i am taking the latter

You don't need multiples of any class or even any class in particular. You want one wizard and two bards. It's a matter of preference and what makes a quest easier for you. Again, if a group of all rogues or all clerics can run the Shroud, then a lot of classes aren't truly necessary.

[CSFurious]

just because 12 clerics or 12 rogues can adventure in the shroud does not mean that it is either efficient or a good idea

i do not think that you can reasonably debate that an all-rogue shroud run is less efficient than the typical shroud group (i will not define it, it just does not consist of 12 rogues)

anyway, i will keep getting my loot as quickly & efficiently as possible which means limiting the number of casters & rogues in the group

i am actually pretty liberal because i play a rogue, & therefore understand rogue discrimination, i would let 2 rogues come along if they were well-played

i want 1 wizard & 2 bards instead of 3 sorcerors because it is the smarter decision & actually for an experienced player, a no-brainer

You don't need multiples of any class or even any class in particular. You want one wizard and two bards. It's a matter of preference and what makes a quest easier for you. Again, if a group of all rogues or all clerics can run the Shroud, then a lot of classes aren't truly necessary.

[Angelus_dead]

You don't need multiples of any class or even any class in particular. You want one wizard and two bards. It's a matter of preference and what makes a quest easier for you. Again, if a group of all rogues or all clerics can run the Shroud, then a lot of classes aren't truly necessary.

It's not a question of classes, it's a question of what roles are necessary.

To do Shroud well, you need multiple characters in the damage role and multiple in the healer role, but only one in the mage role to CC devils, disintegrate crystals, and maybe debuff the Pit Fiend. One good mage is perfectly capable of handling all your mage needs, and additional mages don't help.

You also need one character in the "songs plz" role, which can only be a single class. But adding extra bards at least gets you someone who can also hit the boss with weapons, or who is assured to have the UMD to help heal (which a sorcerer might or might not have)

[Angelus_dead]

i do not think that you can reasonably debate that an all-rogue shroud run is less efficient than the typical shroud group (i will not define it, it just does not consist of 12 rogues)

anyway, i will keep getting my loot as quickly & efficiently as possible which means limiting the number of casters & rogues in the group

Since when does limiting rogues help at all? A rogue is more helpful that a fighter! They do more DPS and take less damage.

[moorewr]

You know, this is used all the time, and it ahem, *uses* an aspect of the AI that prevents proper pathing. In its essentials it's not that different from the (not be named or described here) business with the Pit Fiend that got us our last server hot fix.

This is not to say shield blocking in a door is an exploit. Clearly it is not. Just as clearly the AI could be better about pathing, much better.

I make a distinction though, for people who scream at other players for wanting to fight in the doorway. Those folks are focused on the weakness in the AI, and not on the valid tactic of a good defensive position.

Anyway, screaming at folks about a game ain't ever cool.

It's a common belief that if you are not blocking, they will get by you. (many people also think you need a shield to do this)

I'm not sure if this is true or not. it does seem that actively blocking is more effective at preventing them from getting by you, but at the same time, I've blocked a door while I was incapped numerous times.....so I'd say definately not necessary.

But if the caster does not have agro and doing enough damage to keep it....well, then it can get ugly.

Also, it is my belief that the caster needs to be far behind the blockers (people should yell at them for that IMO). Far enough so giant creatures and Guardians do not think they cn reach out and touch them.

The STK guardian knocks people back cause he thinks the caster is in his range. The WW Ogres kill door blockers cause he's swinging at the caster.

IMO this is way more important then whether or not the Ftr is swnging his wep or not.

[CSFurious]

unless they are dwarves or multi-class rogues, i do not think that you want more than 2 because in part 4, i think most clerics are going to want to heal melees with at least 300 hitpoints & that is sort of low (i am not talking to super-rogues who with 200 hitpoints melee the pit-fiend; they apparently exist, but will probably not be in your typical pug)

pug rogues are a motley crew IMO & i assume nothing until i see them in action

i agree though that fighters are currently pretty gimp & that i would take rogues, rangers & barbarians instead

Since when does limiting rogues help at all? A rogue is more helpful that a fighter! They do more DPS and take less damage.

[Eudimio]

You can't be considered "good" if you can only complete a quest or a raid with an optimal party...

Good players enjoy a challenge...

Let me rephrase that... Good players can HANDLE a challenge...

Actually, your first sentence fragment is my definition of a good/average player.

Your second sentence fragment is silly. There are many good players that don't enjoy a challenge and instead like the efficiency of a well-led raid.

Your last sentence fragment is moot. A single good player with a bunch of poor players will likely fail raids.

My original point was that Shroud PUG LFMs that start off with three casters out of four positions are going to get a disproportionate amount of poor players.

Happy Hunting.

[Boldrin]

Hate to say it, but even with it's quirks it's by far the most enjoyable raid in the game. Guess it serves casters right for soloing everything.

[RyanWade]

You mean a raid like the Reaver?

Thank You!
That's excatlly what I thought as soon as I read the 1st post.
Prior to the loot table change to promote elite runs, I would never have more than 1 Tank in the Reaver. It would typically be 1 or 2 casters, 1 cleric, and 1 tank.

[Uska]

I'd say this sounds like a Khyber issue and not a Shroud issue based on your and others' comments. I've seen successful Shroud runs with a variety of group configurations. I've been in runs with anywhere from one to four casters, but normally at least two. I've been in runs where most of the casters were replaced with bards. I've run it with anywhere from two to five clerics. I've been in runs with no traditional melee classes and a boatload of rangers. I've seen rogue-only runs and saw that a cleric only run is forming up on Thelanis.

I don't think I've heard of any classes that have any real difficulty getting into the Shroud on Argo. If groups don't want rogues, the rogues go by themselves.

If groups on Khyber can't run Shroud with more than one caster and overloading with melee, then perhaps they need to experiment with different tactics.

Its not a Khyber issue been in the shroud with at least 3 casters(might have been more) and was very successful I think we only had one guy end up in the penalty box and that was because of a minor lag spike that got him killed before the clerics could heal him