Devs: Shroud is biased against Casters

[Elsbet]

It's not a question of classes, it's a question of what roles are necessary.

To do Shroud well, I want multiple characters in the damage role and multiple in the healer role, but only one in the mage role to CC devils, disintegrate crystals, and maybe debuff the Pit Fiend. In my opinion, one good mage is perfectly capable of handling all your mage needs, and additional mages don't help.

I also want one character in the "songs plz" role, which can only be a single class. But adding extra bards at least gets you someone who can also hit the boss with weapons, or who is assured to have the UMD to help heal (which a sorcerer might or might not have)

Fixed it for you.

Again, this is not a need. It is a want. If the raid can be run without a class, then that class isn't necessary.

I've been in groups like you want with the "optimal" mix of classes and frankly, they fail more often than they succeed because they lack versatility. The options to handle something unforseen are far fewer. Last night, mobs were spawning from the portals on normal faster than I've sen them spawn on elite. Without multiple casters, it would have been much harder to handle than it was.

Multiple casters makes part 2 much easier depending on what you draw for mobs. I believe at least two is far closer to optimal. Multiple mages in part one means that one can roam and one can stay with the portal group, ensuring that your insta-kill ability is not spread too thin, though this can be done by clerics since there is little healing to be done in part 1. In part 2, their crowd control and damage spells are very helpful.

As much as I love my bard, she's not necessary to run shroud. It's nice if the casters can save mana by not having to cast dance balls, but not required. If it gets to the point where we're depending on her for healing, we're hosed. All she carries is the cure serious spell and some wands/scrolls to self-heal between fights. If all she's wanted for is songs, I'll pass on the group. That's boring.

My cleric does as much damage to the pit fiend with one cheap, unempowered searing light as any melee with a transmuting weapon. I find that one-two traditional melees is sufficient in a party stocked with decent rangers.

With decent players, no class is "necessary." UMD rogues heal just fine. I'll take Brenna, Rameses and Kiranselie (all rogues) over tanks any day and twice on Sundays. There are people who run casters and rangers in the same category. I'd rather have those players on whatever toon they want to play because they are good than I would anyone else in a specific class.

I was told repeatedly before I entered the Shroud the first time that the "optimal" group was four clerics, four evasion melees, two rangers and two casters. I think I've seen that work twice. A successful raid in the shroud or anywhere else depends on the players, not the classes.

[drachine]

oh please. you want discrimination? try playin a rogue and getting more then one, IF ANY, into a Shroud run.

give me a break.

[Angelus_dead]

Fixed it for you.

No, it's not just my opinion. Within the qualifier of "If you want to do well in the Shroud", those roles are needed. If you don't have people inflicting damage with weapons, you are going to take more time, risk, and expense than otherwise. Likewise if you do not have a bard to buff their weapon damage, you are going to do worse than you could.

It's "not needed" only in the sense that you don't need to do well.

I've been in groups like you want with the "optimal" mix of classes and frankly, they fail more often than they succeed because they lack versatility. The options to handle something unforseen are far fewer. Last night, mobs were spawning from the portals on normal faster than I've sen them spawn on elite. Without multiple casters, it would have been much harder to handle than it was.

Lol. Probably they were spawning because you had the multiple casters, and someone was "handling" them with a Suggestion spell.

My cleric does as much damage to the pit fiend with one cheap, unempowered searing light as any melee with a transmuting weapon.

That's just hilariously wrong. Searing Light isn't "cheap", and it doesn't do close to useful damage on Arraetrikos. Without metamagic it does 45 damage, which is less than a buffed fighter does with one swing (of a small weapon). Then while Searing Light is on the 3 second cooldown the fighter is swinging again, and again, and again...

If a cleric wants to blow spellpoints on directly-damaging Arraetrikos, at least use something more economical like Holy Smite, which gets 3 hp/sp instead of the 2.2 hp/sp from Searing Light. Or cast Harm for 4 hp/sp.

I find that one-two traditional melees is sufficient in a party stocked with decent rangers.

Rangers fill the role of "inflict damage with weapons".

With decent players, no class is "necessary." UMD rogues heal just fine. I'll take Brenna, Rameses and Kiranselie (all rogues) over tanks any day and twice on Sundays.

If they're build and equipped right, rogues ARE tanks. And they absolutely have the ability to do weapon damage.

[Ikuryo]

I'm not entirely sure why rogues are not really wanted in the shroud. For part 4 they just need a ranged weapon, stand close enough to get sneak attack dmg but not be hit by him and fill him full of arrows or bolts. With evasion and improved evasion they can mostly ignore his meteor swarm and delayed fireballs so they don't need much in the way of healing. The blades would be the only thing I would watch out for and they can be seen and avoided. Its true that they don't have many hps but that just means they can be doing ranged dmg with the rangers.

It will be interesting after mod7 to see how they do in there. With the right enhancements they are going to get some nice bonus dmg on the portals.

Oh and the fastest group I've seen blow through the Shroud was an 11 ranger 1 bard group. The portal popped almost instantly and nothing in part 2 or 4 survived long.

[Gunga]

Is it the developers intentions to make a raid that only requires one caster in it for the raid to be optimal? How would tanks feel if the developers made a raid where you only needed one tank? In the end game the only thing to do is to get your raids in but if you can't get your shroud runs in as a caster because every raid only wants one it severely detracts the enjoyment of the game.

Eyeroll.

[Mindspat]

Is it the developers intentions to make a raid that only requires one caster in it for the raid to be optimal? How would tanks feel if the developers made a raid where you only needed one tank? In the end game the only thing to do is to get your raids in but if you can't get your shroud runs in as a caster because every raid only wants one it severely detracts the enjoyment of the game.

Sarcasm?

[Zartuul]

Don't know what servers you are on, on Khyber I almost always see group leaders pull Sorc and Wis off the LFM list after getting one (maybe 2 sometimes).

You have to get in fast, or start your own groups, or no Shroud for you.

Yes, I am on Khyber. That is exactly what I see. One caster maybe 2 then no more for shroud runs.

[Zartuul]

oh please. you want discrimination? try playin a rogue and getting more then one, IF ANY, into a Shroud run.

give me a break.

I've got an amazing idea. How about starting a thread about Rogue issues with raid groups and staying out of this one? Just because Rogues have the same issue and not wanting more then one if any at all does not make other classes issues mute.

[Tyrande]

Yes, I am on Khyber. That is exactly what I see. One caster maybe 2 then no more for shroud runs.

Perhaps this is more of an issue on Khyber.

I think a few arcane casters on Khyber may be perceived as not specialized in spell penetration and the leaders
in powers that might be viewed that as a weakness. Also, if the shroud runs were done higher than normal difficulty,
low spell penetration might be a problem. The developers have also increase the SR on monsters in the shroud for elite to an
astounding level.

I have updated them on the Bug Hunting Lodge forums.

Also, I do not believe you can craft spell penetration green steel items. If this were implemented, this might be less of an issue.
Recent nerfs to the arcane casters, I guess They include but not limited to the following:

1) Monster AI update for path-ing and aggression to arcane casters.
2) Temple of the Vol shadows "immune" to fire.
3) Increased SR on elite difficulty for monsters with spell resistance.

[Rameses]

When forming a shroud run I'll reserve a spot for 3 clerics and 3 DPS; after that I'll take the first five to apply to the party. As I am filling a Rogues/Healer role.

I am, Rameses!