Suggestion for Overbloated AH Prices

[Pyromaniac]

Bran's opinions about the AH are about as valid as my opinions on PVP. Can we please have game sweeping changes to a feature that i don't use?

QFT - Rumor has it that plat farmers are making their plat betting on the outcome of PVP contests....lets take PVP out of the game!

[GlassCannon]

I want a high % fee of the Minimum Bid(Preferably 20%), lowered by a Buyout slightly(by 2%), to be imposed on ALL posts to the Auction House, and the selling gouge to be lowered(To balance the equation a bit).


We need to spend more posting than we do currently, and take home more when we actually sell it.

[Hafeal]

Wrong-o. Turbine's official position is that plat buying hurts the economy, and the AH bolsters plat buying and therefore plat selling. H

Turbine's official statement is that selling anything from in-game for RL cash is wrong. The reason is that you are infringing on their intellectual property. It certainly is slick and smart marketing to claim they are the shining knights of protecting the "in-game" economy. It is a nice by-product but not a main issue.

That is not fully correct ... Prices rise to artificially high levels when ingame currency loses value being cheaply available for real cash.

The way you escape is to not use the AH at all. The vast majority of quests in this game can be be completed with average builds with average items. I have seen it done time and time again. If you choose to use the AH, you will be exposed to players who play and "earn" much more than you and are willing to pay more for items. As others have pointed out, however, most items on the AH have really dropped since I started. Your latest and greatest are always going to cost you more.

[HumanJHawkins]

I want a high % fee of the Minimum Bid(Preferably 20%), lowered by a Buyout slightly(by 2%), to be imposed on ALL posts to the Auction House, and the selling gouge to be lowered(To balance the equation a bit).

I'm not sure if your suggestion will do it or not, but I am in favor of any changes that accomplish the following:

• Encourage more people to put a buyout price on their auctions.
• Improve the ability for bidding wars to happen... Such as adding proxy bidding, etc.

The thing is, at least half of the people going to the auction house are not the least bit interested in anything that they have to wait at all for... For example, they want that one missing ingredient before hopping into a Shroud run that is happening right now. Or they want an Adamantine weapon for their lowbie before joining an STK run. Having a buyout price (even a high one) is very helpful to these people.

And, the other half are hoping for a good sale price or a good bargain. Good for both sides here, as that is exactly what auctions are for. However, what is hurting both sides about the current AH, is the difficulty in bidding. Problems:

1. The auction lasts for days, so no one can be available at any given moment when they might get outbid.
2. Some people have to work, cook dinner, etc. So they will be unavailable to bid on items sometimes even during the important last hour before an auction closes.
3. Some quests take a while and can't afford to have people jumping out to go bid on something. So even people in the game are not always able to bid.

Because of these things, the current AH does not favor actual auctions (as opposed to buyout selling). In a healthy auction system, you can start a desirable item at $1 with no minimum sale price and it will often go for more than retail. But as it stands, the DDO auction house will create a very happy buyer and a very sad seller every time this is attempted.

It's not that there aren't buyers willing to pay more. It is just that there is no mechanism for the buyers to compete from within quests, or while they are cooking dinner for their kids, etc.

People who do very little selling, and who don't have to cook dinner for their kids, and who therefore are currently making out like bandits as buyers on the AH will always come here and fight any solution to this. But it is pretty clear that the vast majority of sellers and buyers would benefit from the addition of some sort of proxy bidding system. Or, alternately a web portal where people could get notified by real (out of game) e-mail, and then log into some web site and make a bid.

[branmakmuffin]

Turbine's official statement is that selling anything from in-game for RL cash is wrong. The reason is that you are infringing on their intellectual property.

I'm not an IP lawyer, but I'd like to hear that reasoning.

Concentrating plat in the hands of too few (as plat selling/buying does) hurts the economy.

[Vardak]

I'm not an IP lawyer, but I'd like to hear that reasoning.

Concentrating plat in the hands of too few (as plat selling/buying does) hurts the economy.

The reasoning is simple. Turbine owns the rights to any profits derived from this game. If you make a profit from the game Turbine DOES NOT grant you license to play it.

I firmly believe that those that work to gain concentrated wealth deserve every copper piece. Those that spend RL money for virtual wealth are fools. Finally I believe that those that complain about either are the tired, lazy, or poor.

[branmakmuffin]

The reasoning is simple. Turbine owns the rights to any profits derived from this game. If you make a profit from the game Turbine DOES NOT grant you license to play it.

That sounds more like a licensing argument, not a copyright argument. Licensing is a matter of contract. Copyright is not.

I firmly believe that those that work to gain concentrated wealth deserve every copper piece. Those that spend RL money for virtual wealth are fools. Finally I believe that those that complain about either are the tired, lazy, or poor.

So complaining about fools means one is lazy, tired or poor?

[Pyromaniac]

I firmly believe that those that work to gain concentrated wealth deserve every copper piece. Those that spend RL money for virtual wealth are fools. Finally I believe that those that complain about either are the tired, lazy, or poor.

QFT, Of the three options at the end I'm guessing on #2

[Angelus_dead]

Turbine's official statement is that selling anything from in-game for RL cash is wrong. The reason is that you are infringing on their intellectual property.

No. That is not the reason, because they'd never use such a stupid reason.

[Turial]

Turbine's official statement is that selling anything from in-game for RL cash is wrong. The reason is that you are infringing on their intellectual property.

This may not be Turbines official stance but it can and has been a legal stance for some companies in the past.

Remember we are not the owners of anything we find in the game. They are all legally the property of Turbine and to sell those items for personal profit is somewhat similar to selling a friends house and not telling him about it (in that you didnt own the item you sold).

Turbines offical stance is likely in the TOS and says (in plain words) something like: we dont give you permission to sell items in the game for real money, doing so is a violation of the TOS and can result in your account being closed.

[Aspenor]

This may not be Turbines official stance but it can and has been a legal stance for some companies in the past.

Remember we are not the owners of anything we find in the game. They are all legally the property of Turbine and to sell those items for personal profit is somewhat similar to selling a friends house and not telling him about it (in that you didnt own the item you sold).

Turbines offical stance is likely in the TOS and says (in plain words) something like: we dont give you permission to sell items in the game for real money, doing so is a violation of the TOS and can result in your account being closed.

This is about right. Turbine doesn't need any better reason than "they are our servers, this is our game, these are our rules."

[branmakmuffin]

Turbines offical stance is likely in the TOS and says (in plain words) something like: we dont give you permission to sell items in the game for real money, doing so is a violation of the TOS and can result in your account being closed.

And one of the reasons they give is that it harms the in-game economy. I happen to believe it does. Others seem to think that's just a crass, disingenuous smoke-screen for the real reason. IP infringement may have something to do with it. However, if I were to buy in-game items for money, I would not be making any money off of Turbine's IP. The seller is, but the buyer isn't, yet that's just as much against the TOS as being the seller is.

[Hafeal]

No. That is not the reason, because they'd never use such a stupid reason.

LOL.

This may not be Turbines official stance but it can and has been a legal stance for some companies in the past.

Remember we are not the owners of anything we find in the game. They are all legally the property of Turbine and to sell those items for personal profit is somewhat similar to selling a friends house and not telling him about it (in that you didnt own the item you sold).

Turbines offical stance is likely in the TOS and says (in plain words) something like: we dont give you permission to sell items in the game for real money, doing so is a violation of the TOS and can result in your account being closed.

Well, I would take the position that the IP is more important to Turbine because it is specifically referred to and quoted in the TOS whereas the "in-game economy" is not mentioned (TOS). Here is some language from the TOS:

You acknowledge and agree that all Content, including, without limitation, all characters created and virtual items, acquired and developed as a result of game play, are the sole and exclusive property of Turbine and may be used by Turbine (and/or its affiliates, publishing partners, distributors, licensors and licensees) for any purpose. You acknowledge that: (i) such Software and related Services permit access to Content that is protected by copyrights, trademarks, and other proprietary rights owned by Turbine or third-party licensors (collectively, "Rights"), and/or (ii) these Rights are valid and protected in all media existing now or later developed, and (iii) except as is explicitly provided otherwise, your use of Content shall be governed by the copyright laws of the United States and other applicable laws. You agree that you may upload or otherwise transmit on or through the Service only Content that is not subject to any third-party Rights, or Content in which any holder of Rights has given express authorization for distribution on the Service. If and to the extent you are deemed to have retained, under applicable law, any right, title or interest in or to any portion of the Content, you hereby transfer, grant, convey, assign and relinquish solely and exclusively to Turbine all of your right, title and interest in and to the Content, without reservation and without additional consideration, under applicable patent, copyright, trade secret, trademark and other similar laws or rights, in perpetuity, and in the alternative to the extent such assignment is ineffective under applicable law, you hereby grant to Turbine the sole and exclusive, irrevocable, sublicensable, transferable, worldwide, paid-up license to reproduce, fix, adapt, modify, translate, reformat, create derivative works from, manufacture, introduce into circulation, publish, distribute, sell, license, sublicense, transfer, rent, lease, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, provide access to electronically, broadcast, communicate to the public by telecommunication, display, enter into computer memory, and use and practice the Content all modified and derivative works thereof, all portions and copies thereof in any form, all inventions, designs, and marks embodied therein, and all patent, copyright, trade secret, trademark and other intellectual property rights thereto, and/or to incorporate the same in other works in any form, media, or technology now known or later developed. To the extent permitted by applicable laws, you hereby waive any moral rights or rights of publicity or privacy you may have in the Content.

[branmakmuffin]

You acknowledge and agree that all Content, including, without limitation, all characters created and virtual items, acquired and developed as a result of game play, are the sole and exclusive property of Turbine and may be used by Turbine (and/or its affiliates, publishing partners, distributors, licensors and licensees) for any purpose.

And this has nothing to do with the buyers of equipment for real money. It's sorta kinda (just sorta kinda) like when those "illegal" EQ servers which cropped up. Sony's licensing agreement said it was forbidden to play on unauthorized third party servers. But the agreement didn't cover the running of unauthorized third-party servers (I have no idea now how that all played out).

If someone buys in-games items for real money, he is not violating the provision that all virtual items are Turbine's property. The seller might be.

I abide by the TOS not because of some higher moral guidance (as some seem to me to imply they do) but because I believe Turbine when they say it harms the in-game economy, and because it is their game and I am willing to play by their rules (like I am with any DM whose game I choose to play in).

Gaming DDO is not high on my list of things to do to get my jollies.

[Turial]

...

If someone buys in-games items for real money, he is not violating the provision that all virtual items are Turbine's property. The seller might be.

I abide by the TOS not because of some higher moral guidance (as some seem to me to imply they do) but because I believe Turbine when they say it harms the in-game economy, and because it is their game and I am willing to play by their rules (like I am with any DM whose game I choose to play in).

Gaming DDO is not high on my list of things to do to get my jollies.

You are correct TOS agreements typically dont focus on the purchasing of virtual items just the sale of them.

But you would have to find me a quote where turbine says "it harms the in-game economy", not that I dont believe they mean that but more because I haven't ever seen a statement that strong concerning that activity.

[branmakmuffin]

But you would have to find me a quote where turbine says "it harms the in-game economy", not that I dont believe they mean that but more because I haven't ever seen a statement that strong concerning that activity.

If you haven't seen it, you haven't been playing the game.

All that glitters is NOT gold!
Feb 05, 2008 16:02 EST Especially in-game currency or items bought for real money! This is a friendly reminder to our players that buying currency or items for real money is not only against the EULA, but can put your account at risk for hacking or banning. Buying currency or items causes game imbalance, damages the economy, and heavily contributes to the amount of spam in chat, tells, and mail. In extreme cases it's even been known to cause hair loss, global warming, and the extinction of at least 2 species of insects every day. Don't buy currency or items for real money!! (emphasis added)

[MissErres]

Just to refresh our memories as to what this thread is all about....

One way you could completely get rid of gold sellers and keep prices resonable would be to put some sort of cap on the prices of items being sold. Now for most MMO's this suggestion wouldn't work as items in most MMO's don't really have a listed market price. But for this game it would be very easy to implement. Just set cap of 2x the actual market price of the item. Gold would no longer need to be bought from gold sellers as prices would finally be reasonable and you would no longer see insane high prices on weapons that are effectively +3 or higher. There's really no reason anyone should have to pay 100k on a freaking +1 Holy Keen Adamantine weapon when it's market value is only around 9k.

The only people who would really complain about such a bold move would be the Gold Seller's as no one would need them anymore. Give gold back it's value and stop the recession.

The auction house is not to blame for plat farmers and is not even the topic of this discussion. Ya wanna know what's to blame for plat farmers??? THE PEOPLE WHO BUY THE PLAT!!! If they didn't have customers, they wouldn't be in business.

Now, a simple solution to the AH problem is better search criteria. Then you could weed out those ridiculously over-bloated prices and not even have to look at them. Just because something is posted for some outrageous amount doesn't mean it is going to sell.

[branmakmuffin]

The auction house is not to blame for plat farmers and is not even the topic of this discussion. Ya wanna know what's to blame for plat farmers??? THE PEOPLE WHO BUY THE PLAT!!! If they didn't have customers, they wouldn't be in business.

The AH makes it all worse. The AH fuels money spending, which fuels players' desire for plat which fuels the market for sold plat, which puts more plat in the hands of too few players, which allows them to spend like drunken sailors on the AH, etc., etc., etc.

Now, a simple solution to the AH problem is better search criteria.

There's no doubt that would help. Eliminating the AH altogether would also do a lot to eliminate over-bloated AH prices.

[MissErres]

There's no doubt that would help. Eliminating the AH altogether would also do a lot to eliminate over-bloated AH prices.

Eliminating the AH would not eliminate Auctions. The would still happen here in the forums, in the trade chat, in private tells and in the LFM's. And if you don't like the over-bloated prices, don't pay them. Simple as that.

[Tanka]

The AH makes it all worse. The AH fuels money spending, which fuels players' desire for plat which fuels the market for sold plat, which puts more plat in the hands of too few players, which allows them to spend like drunken sailors on the AH, etc., etc., etc.

You really don't get it, do you?

The AH didn't suddenly make people plat-hungry. The game did, and the market did.

Before the AH, people auctioned things on the forums.

Removing the AH moves all the auctions to the forums again. It's counterintuitive and lazy to not have an AH.