I guess thats it for paladin "love" then.

[Mhykke]

Get 10 paladins together in The Shroud all porked up with auras, have them move as a group, and see how much healing you need.

Or see how fast you fail in part 1 from all the portal keepers spawning!


*edit
Ninja'd. My powers are getting stronger.

[GlassCannon]

Really, what's stupid about not being happy about being behind every class in melee DPS except Wiz/Sorc?

Oh, that's right Paladins are defensive focused? If you have access to several Raid loot items, several tomes and the perfect build, then your AC will matter.

Oh, my bad, we're supposed to be healers? Except Clerics, Bards, and even Rogues heal better than Paladins.

But we give a "huge" bonus to group AC and Saves? Unless you were scraping the top end of possible AC, the bonus to AC doesn't even matter, so the reason to bring a Paladin is for the bonus to Saves?

WOOOHOOO, I'm UBER!!!!

Get 10 paladins together in The Shroud all porked up with auras, have them move as a group, and see how much healing you need.

You might just do Elite out of boredom.


Oh wait, you forgot that Auras stack...

Also, in Dungeons and Dragons, you do not have to be anywhere near uber to contribute to a party's success.

That's what you do in DDO. You contribute to the party's success.

[Twerpp]

Auras stack? That I did not know...

[gpk]

Get 10 paladins together in The Shroud all porked up with auras, have them move as a group, and see how much healing you need.

You might just do Elite out of boredom.


Oh wait, you forgot that Auras stack...

Also, in Dungeons and Dragons, you do not have to be anywhere near uber to contribute to a party's success.

That's what you do in DDO. You contribute to the party's success.

I just had to quote this (edit: before it gets edited)...

[Mhykke]

Auras stack? That I did not know...

Yes. And by yes, I mean, no. Auras don't stack.

[Twerpp]

I just had to quote this...

Guess we can start adding multiple auras to our "highest possible AC calculation" threads lol. So whats is that now, 105 AC, 135 if you are in a raid with 11 other Pallys? Wow we should all just roll Paladins!

[Serpent]

Oh wait, you forgot that Auras stack...

I just wanted to quote this for it's specialness.

[Geonis]

Get 10 paladins together in The Shroud all porked up with auras, have them move as a group, and see how much healing you need.

You might just do Elite out of boredom.


Oh wait, you forgot that Auras stack...

Also, in Dungeons and Dragons, you do not have to be anywhere near uber to contribute to a party's success.

That's what you do in DDO. You contribute to the party's success.

Whether you have 178 Paladins or 1, the result is still the same, a maximum of +5 AC and saves.

[Anastasios]

Not really sure why the op is complaining, maybe you should just wait until the changes have been made and see, as there are many benefits to the changes they are making. And if you think your Pally is gimp, well then you either made him gimp or just are gimp, I for one have no issue with bringing the 28pt out and still having a good time, even after all the nerfs, it's nice to know that positive changes are at least being made.

[Hvymetal]

Really, what's stupid about not being happy about being behind every class in melee DPS except Wiz/Sorc?

Oh, that's right Paladins are defensive focused? If you have access to several Raid loot items, several tomes and the perfect build, then your AC will matter.

Oh, my bad, we're supposed to be healers? Except Clerics, Bards, and even Rogues heal better than Paladins.

But we give a "huge" bonus to group AC and Saves? Unless you were scraping the top end of possible AC, the bonus to AC doesn't even matter, so the reason to bring a Paladin is for the bonus to Saves?

WOOOHOOO, I'm UBER!!!!

Doesn't it feel nice being a short range group resistance buff?

[Geonis]

My biggest beef with the wait and see crowd, is that if we wait and see, then what they are proposing is what we get.

They will not be changing it later.

The new "love" is mathematically either a reduction in DPS due to stopping to activate, or an insignificant increase, or abilities noone has asked for and the majority don't need..

I have been waiting for over a year to be caught up with the crowd, only to get illusionary "love"?

[Hvymetal]

My biggest beef with the wait and see crowd, is that if we wait and see, then what they are proposing is what we get.

They will not be changing it later.

The new "love" is mathematically either a reduction in DPS due to stopping to activate, or an insignificant increase, or abilities noone has asked for and the majority don't need..

I have been waiting for over a year to be caught up with the crowd, only to get illusionary "love"?

And then of course any complaints about Paladins will be redirected back to this "love" we got with this upcoming mod, I for one better be seeing a few better looking enhancements/spells or I won;t be touching another pure class Paladin, mine will remain a mule.

[Geonis]

And then of course any complaints about Paladins will be redirected back to this "love" we got with this upcoming mod, I for one better be seeing a few better looking enhancements/spells or I won;t be touching another pure class Paladin, mine will remain a mule.

I don't understand why Turbine didn't make 3 PRCs for the Paladins like they have with Rogues, Bards, and Rangers.

They could easily have made one geared towards Evil Outsiders, one geared towards Undead, and one geared towards Defence.

Instead we get "enhancements" to alter the most over-rated ability in the game.




Example of something Turbine could have adapted for the Pally.



A knight of the chalice is a member of an elite knightly organization devoted to fighting demons and other evil outsiders. Motivated by a pious hatred of these creatures that embody the principles of evil and routinely invade the Material Plane. Knights of the chalice learn tactics and gain special abilities that help them in their crusade.
A character who qualifies for entrance into the Order of the Chalice is typically a paladin/ranger or a cleric/ranger. Characters with minimal levels as a ranger/cleric or paladin/ranger can qualify even if they have more levels in other classes -- rogue, fighter, and even wizard or sorcerer. Wizards and sorcerers are rarely drawn to the order's crusade, and cannot qualify as knights until reaching high levels. Few monks or bards have enough dedication to exterminate demons to take up this class.
Knights of the Chalice are often lone crusaders , maintaining only loose connects to their order. NPC knights sometimes gather adventuring bands around themselves for combat support. A knight of the Chalice could become a temporary ally of a group of adventurers while the party is engaged in a campaign against a demon.


Special Abilities
Fiendslaying +1/+1d6
Censure Demons, Courage of Heaven (fear)
Fiendslaying +2/+2d6
Consecrated casting
Courage of Heaven (enchantment)
Fiendslaying +3/+3d6
--
Courage of Heaven (radius)
Fiendslaying +4/+4d6
Holy aura 1/day

Hit Die: d10

Requirements:


Alignment: Lawful Good
Base Attack: +8
Skills: Knowledge (the planes) (+5), Knowledge (religion) (+10)
Spells: Able to cast divine spells, including Protection from Evil
Class Skills: Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (the planes), Knowledge (religion), Profession, and Sense Motive
Skill Points/Level: 2 + INT Modifier

Class Features


Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Knights of the Chalice gain no profiency with any weapon or armor.

Spells:
Beginning at 1st level a knight of the Chalice gains the ability to cast a number of divine spells. To cast a spell, a knight of the Chalice must have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell's level, so a knight with a Wisdom of 10 or lower cannot cast these spells. Knight of the Chalice bonus spells are based on Wisdom, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + the spell's level + the knight's wisdom modifier. When the knight gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level (for instance, 1st level spells for a 1st level knight), she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Wisdom score for that spell level. The knight of the Chalice's spell list appears below; she has access to any spell on the list and can freely choose which to prepare. A knight of the Chalice prepares and casts spells just as a cleric does (though a knight cannot loose a spell to cast a cure spell in its place).

Knight of the Chalice Spell List

Level 1


Bless Water
Bless Weapon
Detect Chaos
Detect Evil
Divine Favor
Doom
Endure Elements
Magic Weapon
Protection from Evil
Remove Fear
Summon Monster I



Level 2


Aid
Align Weapon
Bull's Strength
Consecrate
Endurance
Resist Elements
Sound Burst
Spiritual Weapon
Summon Monster II
Undetectable Alignment



Level 3


Detect Magic
Invisibilty Purge
Magic Circle Against Evil
Magic Vestment
Prayer
Protection from Elements
Searing Light
Shout
Summon Monster III



Level 4


Dimensional Anchor
Discern Lies
Dismissal
Dispel Evil
Greater Magic Weapon
Holy Smite
Lesser Aspect of the Deity,
Lesser Planar Ally

Fiendslaying: [Ex]
A knight of the Chalice gain a number of special benefits in combat with evil outsiders. A 1st level knight of the Chalice gains a +1 competence bonus on attack rolls against evil outsiders. On a successful attack, she deals an extra 1d6 points of damage due to her expertise in combating these creatures. These bonuses increase as the knight advances in level as shown in the table above.
A 1st level knight of the Chalice's +1 compentance bonus she applies to Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot checks when she uses these skills against evil outsiders.
These bonuses all stack with the knight's favored enemy bonus (if any).

Censure Demons: [Su]
A knight of the Chalice can censure demons, much as clerics turn undead. Rather than channeling positive energy, a knight of the Chalice channels energy from the the celestial planes of lawful good.
When a knight of the Chalice uses this ability, any demon within 30 feet must make a Will save (DC 10 + the knight of the chalice's class level + the knight's Cha modifier) or be censured.
A censured demon whose Hit Dice are equal to are greater than twice the knight's class level is stunned by the knight's holy power for 1 round.
If a censured demon has fewer Hit Dice than twice the knight's class level, it is stunned and must succeed on a second Will save (same DC) or be sent back to its home plane as if it had been subject to a Dismissal spell. Only one demon may be dismissed by any single censure demon attempt; if more than one demon is required to make the second will save, check for the demon with the lowest HD first.
A knight may attempt to censure demons once per day for every two class levels she possess.

Courage of Heaven: [Su]
A knight of the Chalice of 2nd level or higher is immune to fear effects cast or created by evil outsiders. At 5th level and higher, a knight of the Chalice is immune to enchantment spells and effects cast or created by evil outsiders, including charms and suggestions. At 8th level and highe, these immunities extend to all allies within 20 feet of the Knight of the Chalice.

Conscreted Casting: [Ex]
When a knight of the Chalice reaches 4th level, spells cast by the character on an evil outsider becomes more difficult to resist. When a knight casts a spell that targets an evil outsider, add +2 to the knight's caster level check to overcome the target's spell resistance and +2 to the DC of any saving throw the spell allows.

Holy Aura: [Su]
A 10th level knight of the Chalice has the ability to create a holy aura once per day that affects herself only. The aura's effect is as the spell cast by a 10th level cleric, but it wards the knight against the attacks, spells, and mental influence of evil outsiders only, and only evil outsiders can be blinded if they strike the knight.
Multiclass Note: A paladin who becomes a knight of the Chalice may continue advancing as a paladin.

[Anastasios]

I guess I'm missing out on something, maybe you guys are blind to it, or maybe I am-a lot of these new features have been implemented because the majority of the community have cried their eyes out saying that their pally's are gimp because of DPS. I'm a little confused as to how else they could have possibly satiated all these complaints, most all of those new features are to appease the whiners. Fact remains that Pally's are the hardest class to roll in this game, I'm just not too sure what everyone was expecting when they made their Pally's.

Common sense here, I'm sure they will implement specialty enhancements eventually, but the whiners wanted otherwise, and I think what they are implementing is almost too overpowering imo, but hey, I'm not complaining, I already see the benefits to the system-do you?

[Mhykke]

I guess I'm missing out on something, maybe you guys are blind to it, or maybe I am-a lot of these new features have been implemented because the majority of the community have cried their eyes out saying that their pally's are gimp because of DPS. I'm a little confused as to how else they could have possibly satiated all these complaints, most all of those new features are to appease the whiners. Fact remains that Pally's are the hardest class to roll in this game, I'm just not too sure what everyone was expecting when they made their Pally's.

Common sense here, I'm sure they will implement specialty enhancements eventually, but the whiners wanted otherwise, and I think what they are implementing is almost too overpowering imo, but hey, I'm not complaining, I already see the benefits to the system-do you?

Walk us through it. Explain how a handful (considering we're going to be getting 8 smites that regen, and only about a quarter of those are crits) of big crits per rest is a meaningful change.

[llevenbaxx]

I guess I'm missing out on something, maybe you guys are blind to it, or maybe I am-a lot of these new features have been implemented because the majority of the community have cried their eyes out saying that their pally's are gimp because of DPS. I'm a little confused as to how else they could have possibly satiated all these complaints, most all of those new features are to appease the whiners. Fact remains that Pally's are the hardest class to roll in this game, I'm just not too sure what everyone was expecting when they made their Pally's.

Common sense here, I'm sure they will implement specialty enhancements eventually, but the whiners wanted otherwise, and I think what they are implementing is almost too overpowering imo, but hey, I'm not complaining, I already see the benefits to the system-do you?

I cant possibly see how you think that any damage boost based on the smite mechanic is anything other than a toy to shut the whiney kid up. Its a nice toy Ill admit but thats about it. With the decrease on the refresh timer I suppose I could be wrong, I really dont think the investment to result will be there though. Will try them none the less, hopfully Im wrong.

I made my pally to be combat heavy, splashed some fighter and am just waiting for those prestiege classes(thought they would for sure end up in the "love" mod). PrCs is what the class needs, a sustainable "O" boost even if its just against a few specific evil enemies. Turbine made a game that highly favors offense over defense, ALL classes should reflect this(or at least have options for it), most of the others already do...

We just need that one concrete spell or feat imo to make the other add-on/middle of the road benefits(shown thus far) seem like cool options instead of gimped choices...if that makes any sense...

[Yshkabibble]

Really, what's stupid about not being happy about being behind every class in melee DPS except Wiz/Sorc?

Oh, that's right Paladins are defensive focused? If you have access to several Raid loot items, several tomes and the perfect build, then your AC will matter.

Oh, my bad, we're supposed to be healers? Except Clerics, Bards, and even Rogues heal better than Paladins.

But we give a "huge" bonus to group AC and Saves? Unless you were scraping the top end of possible AC, the bonus to AC doesn't even matter, so the reason to bring a Paladin is for the bonus to Saves?

WOOOHOOO, I'm UBER!!!!

See my quote on ignorance above. If I were putting together any group with 3 melees I would choose 1 of those to be a paladin. The biggest problem is that a lot of people want to see their names on the top of the kill counts and some classes just don't do this. Paladins certainly need a bosst but to be honest they should never lead the kill counts. When that happens next months posts will be "Why should I play anything other than a Paladin?" Should Paladins have as much DPS as fighters? If yes, why play a fighter?

[Whulffer]

Here my two cents, for those short of temper or weak of heart, stop right now, thank you very much truth about your moma is she's got the human..


Alright, looks like i've done a fair share to discredit this post. "On lancer!". My pally smites (8 or 9 smites atm) for 290+ points of damage with a second tier upgraded green steel kopesh. I have more smites then i know what to do with, stunning blow your face off with my 36 str and you dont know where to look. Yeh, thats right, i get 30 str, + 4 Lord of Blades transform +2 rage pot, +4 if the toon had mastone... Thats right, the big 40. Wheres your fighter now?

Dont forget my divine favor gives me a +3 to my to-hit and base damage number.. since devine favor or w.e stacks with bardsong or gh, lets just say for arguments sake thats what your getting in a pug group, then i just bought myself 4 fighter feats at least with 1 spell (that being focuses & specializations.. for dps). Cancle fighter feats, now you tell me how the fighter isnt gimp. I know he doesnt have any smite, and i'll be doing that to your pit fiend with a high 20 reflex, +400 hp and firestorm greeves. .. Not bad really.

Lets also add my bladesworn xform grants me +4 to my damage rolls and a bunch of other goodies. That ads to the base number remember.


Now, That was dps with my 1 hander, which could easily be a sos or 3rd tier greeny. I think your run of the mill carbon copy fighter will be hard pressed to out dps the fully buffed dps pally.. even with a bard.. most especially. Now lets move on, i have all my saves in the high 20's low 30's, then gh, i have a bunch of cool spells, my own resists, no items need I carry.

I have a barbarian as well, with King (sos) he consistantly crits above 200 points of damage, around every second or third swing on average. Sometimes he'll hit with a bard 200 points of damage on the pit fiend, with the sos, thats including his dr. But I do have a trannsy of evil outsider. My point is I think i've experienced very high end dps.

My opinion is that it is not the pally which is dps gimp, but perhaps the fighter and the pally and perhaps all flap behind the barb. IMO the fighter needs more love. Like hearing it or not.

[Anastasios]

Walk us through it. Explain how a handful (considering we're going to be getting 8 smites that regen, and only about a quarter of those are crits) of big crits per rest is a meaningful change.

Coz it is not a nerf, any pally since day one would accept these changes as they better the class rather than make em worse which is all a Pally has seen. Noone is telling you to play your pally, obviously you have some issues if you Mule him. Your problem not mine, I accept these changes as a step in the right direction as they are benefitting my Pally. As for the only advantages you state, there are others in there are beneficial also, smites aren't the only benefit in these enhancements.

As for the specializtions, there are other classes without them at this time, so I'm not gong to fret on that, when they announce them, then there should be discussion on those.

Seriously, look at Whulffer's post, there is someone who is happy with his Pally, you can always reroll if you aren't satisfied with your build, or just go play your barb if you want to be a hitter, or you can adapt and accept your versatility as a Pally and do many things along with hitting. I just don't see all the fuss is all.

[Mhykke]

Coz it is not a nerf, any pally since day one would accept these changes as they better the class rather than make em worse which is all a Pally has seen. Noone is telling you to play your pally, obviously you have some issues if you Mule him. Your problem not mine, I accept these changes as a step in the right direction as they are benefitting my Pally. As for the only advantages you state, there are others in there are beneficial also, smites aren't the only benefit in these enhancements.

As for the specializtions, there are other classes without them at this time, so I'm not gong to fret on that, when they announce them, then there should be discussion on those.

Seriously, look at Whulffer's post, there is someone who is happy with his Pally, you can always reroll if you aren't satisfied with your build, or just go play your barb if you want to be a hitter, or you can adapt and accept your versatility as a Pally and do many things along with hitting. I just don't see all the fuss is all.

So the answer is you don't have an answer. I'm sorry, that's what it sounds like. Just b/c we're getting anything, and not getting nerfed again, doesn't mean we should be happy with it. If the devs said "paladins will get 1 point extra of damage dealt per rest", that would technically be adding to paladins, but it wouldn't be much.