Last Update Altered how Invis Works

[Nevthial]

I blinded a rhasha (spelling?) in the value using my cleric, just running around doing some charmed slayer runs................ force missles, acid arrows, fireballs where all on target. My cleric has and uses inviso pots but didnt in the encounter with the rhak...... its possible he heard me and actually very likely but by definition of the mm spell dont you have to see your target.


minor gripe i suppose.

Arrghh ! I guess it's still Charm for the win.....

[VonBek]

if ghoste told me I was doing it all wrong, Id stop and listen to what he had to say.

Exactly.

Thanks, Ghoste.

[DagazUlf]

In regards to posters that are not familiar with what you are talking about, I recommend doing a search for all posts by such users. When it can fully be seen that some forum residents do nothing but offer antagonism over-and-over across endless threads for months on end - it makes it easier to disregard such negative comments as purely meaningless - and enjoy the free bump

The ubiquitous QFT.

[Ghoste]

I am going to attempt to explain some of this more clearly.

How it worked pre-patch:
-Run into a room, be observed by single or group of monsters.
-cast invisibility. Enter sneak mode.
-Move away from location where you cast invis and began sneaking.
-Monsters will run to that location and begin swinging at the air, moving a little bit in a random direction, swing again, etc.
-Cast summon monster, quickly cat invis and sneak again.
-Monsters would run to the place you briefly became visible, and resume the search pattern described above.
-If summoned pet damaged any, they would shift agro, kill it, then resume searching for you.

-If you either bump into a monster while sneaking, or was observed, became invis, but ran away without sneaking, monsters would keep moving in your general direction, but often stop far short of your actual location to swing at thin air before following you again. Often they will move even more slowly because they will walk towards you sideways or even backwards. It is quite possible to continuously move away from them in sneak mode without ever getting hit (except with archers or spellcasters) because of how frequently they stop to swing at nothing.

How it works post-patch:
-Run into a room,be observed by single or group of monsters.
-Cast invisibility. Enter sneak mode.
-Move away from location where you cast invis and began sneaking.
-Monsters no longer follow the search pattern behavior explained above in red, but go into the broken following pattern described in blue.
-Cast summon monster. Quickly cast invis and enter sneak mode.
-Monsters immediately switch agro to summoned pet (provided you have not damaged them).
-They kill the pet, then go back to where they were when you first entered the room.
-They do not in any way attempt to search for you.

Another clarification: 2 different types of agro.

Direct agro: The type of agro most players are familiar with. Monsters will run right at you. If you move, they respond in real time and correct the direction they are moving to keep running directly at you.

Indirect agro: Pre-patch and post patch, this is the type of agro you get as soon as you cast invis. Provided you had high enough stealth skills, this was the FIRST STEP in losing agro. It was not the complete process to losing agro.

If you seriously that invisibility was never meant by the devs to help lose agro, or shift monsters from direct to indirect agro, then please feel free to click on the little red triangle under my name and report me for discussing an exploit. This is something I have openly discussed on these forums many times. If it were an exploit, and not a legitimate intended tactic, you could easily go through my posting history and find enough material to get me permanently banned from these forums.

Some more info about invisibility from PnP

Although invisibility provides total concealment, sighted opponents
may still make Spot checks to notice the location of an invisible
character. An invisible character gains a +20 bonus on Hide
checks if moving, or a +40 bonus on Hide checks when not moving
(even though opponents can’t see you, they might be able to figure
out where you are from other visual clues).

Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not
line of sight (for instance, if he is in total darkness or invisible, or if
you’re blinded), he is considered to have total concealment from
you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment,
though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A
successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total
concealment has a 50% miss chance

Invisibility
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2, Trickery 2
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or touch
Target: You or a creature or object weighing
no more than 100 lb./level
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) or
Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) or Yes
(harmless, object)
The creature or object touched becomes
invisible, vanishing from sight, even from
darkvision. If the recipient is a creature
carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast
the spell on someone else, neither you nor
your allies can see the subject, unless you
can normally see invisible things or you
employ magic to do so.
Items dropped or put down by an invisible
creature become visible; items
picked up disappear if tucked into the
clothing or pouches worn by the creature.
Light, however, never becomes invisible,
although a source of light can become so
(thus, the effect is that of a light with no
visible source). Any part of an item that the
subject carries but that extends more than
10 feet from it becomes visible, such as a
trailing rope.
Of course, the subject is not magically
silenced, and certain other conditions can
render the recipient detectable (such as
stepping in a puddle). The spell ends if the
subject attacks any creature. For purposes
of this spell, an attack includes any spell
targeting a foe or whose area or effect
includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe
depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.)
Actions directed at unattended
objects do not break the spell. Causing
harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an
invisible being can open doors, talk, eat,
climb stairs, summon monsters and have
them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope
bridge while enemies are on the bridge,
remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to
release attack dogs, and so forth. If the
subject attacks directly, however, it immediately
becomes visible along with all
its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically
affect allies but not foes are not attacks for
this purpose, even when they include foes
in their area.

[Ghoste]

Ghoste, have you tested to see what happens if a creature is blinded and then you go invisible & hide? Can they still target with spells? I'm not home yet , or I would test it out.

Because I'm so interested in all the minor details of this (especially now with the change), I will go test that.

I know that blindness used to be ridiculously crippling to casters. They'd cast spells far less and generally behave in a very confused manner.

[Ghoste]

Ghoste, is it possible that the mobs are not seeing but rather hearing you? My guess is that they aren't detecting you through a Spot check, but rather a Listen check.

As another player has already mentioned, I have done exhaustive testing, and documented much of it in videos, to disprove that possibility.

[CrimsonEagle]

Actions directed at unattended
objects do not break the spell. Causing
harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an
invisible being can open doors, talk, eat,
climb stairs, summon monsters and have
them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope
bridge while enemies are on the bridge,
remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to
release attack dogs, and so forth. If the
subject attacks directly, however, it immediately
becomes visible along with all
its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically
affect allies but not foes are not attacks for
this purpose, even when they include foes
in their area.

ORLY?

I still dont know if I'm reading you right....but it appears that your job has become easier to lose aggro.

[Ghoste]

Turbine has already stated that they have intentionally changed some of the things that previously didn't break invis. They felt the spell needed a little more balance for the AI's limited ability to cope with it.

[Ghoste]

Ok, I've tested blindness. It works mostly the same as invis with two differences:
1. Blind monsters have no visual arc. You can walk right into them while sneaking and they wont know you're there.
2. After the summoned pet trick, they still attack the pet, but agro on you after it dies.

[Nevthial]

Ok, I've tested blindness. It works mostly the same as invis with two differences:
1. Blind monsters have no visual arc. You can walk right into them while sneaking and they wont know you're there.
2. After the summoned pet trick, they still attack the pet, but agro on you after it dies.

Nice.. Thanks Ghoste, for the testing. As always, you ARE The Shadow Mage !

I know I'm not the only one who has benefited from your Stealth Schooling.

[Hvymetal]

Hmmm, so now it is even easier to break the mob AI with invis+summoned? Or am I interpreting this wrong?

On a side note, I do really wish that if your hide was suffiicient and you broke LOS before you sneak you would shed aggro, this just annoys me to no end taht my Rogue has to carry a stack of invis scrolls if I want to loose aggro while sneaking.

[Ghoste]

Hmmm, so now it is even easier to break the mob AI with invis+summoned? Or am I interpreting this wrong?

On a side note, I do really wish that if your hide was suffiicient and you broke LOS before you sneak you would shed aggro, this just annoys me to no end taht my Rogue has to carry a stack of invis scrolls if I want to loose aggro while sneaking.

No, there's no bugginess to them. If you get rid of your invis they'll behave exactly as if it were the first time they saw you. This is not related at all to the exploit, the results of which are demonstrated in that DDO Bugginess vid.

And regarding your second point, I do believe that's how it works in PnP...

Yes. From the Player's Handbook, here is some more information about hiding:

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can
run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and
then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use the Bluff skill to help you
hide. A successful Bluff check gives you the momentary diversion
you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.
This usage does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Turbine decided to eliminate the need for cover or concealment as listed in this next quote, although in PnP invis counts as total concealment.

You need cover or concealment (see pages 150–152) in order to
attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but
not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check,
since nothing can see you anyway.

Here's a really intersting one for rangers:

Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from
your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide
again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal
yourself after the shot.

And another regarding rangers. When in any sort of natural terrain, at 13th level they don't need concealment to hide, and at lvl 17 can do so even when being directly observed.

A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Hide check in any sort of natural
terrain, even if it doesn’t grant cover or concealment. A 17thlevel
ranger can do this even while being observed (see page 48).

[oronisi]

Previous to last update, if you needed to lose agro on a stealth character, you could cast invis/use and invis pot/clicky and begin sneaking. Monsters would run to the place where you began sneaking and swing their weapons at the air, moving around in a small search pattern centered on the area where you began sneaking.

Now, they are able to follow you. Granted they follow in a broken pattern, stopping frequently to swing at places you used to be, it's in fact possible to avoid getting hit if you keep moving even if you're going really slowly.

Invisibility is supposed to consider you "always hiding" in the words of Eladrin on these very forums.
-against melees, it kind of works like that now.
-against ranged attacks and spellcasters, it no longer works that way as of last update. It is now just the arcane version of camouflage.

I know Turbine probably doesn't give a rat's ass because people who use invis frequently are a minority. But for those who do use it, beware the changes.

Now you are in the boat with the rest of the stealthers! Maybe now we can get a fix to stealth.

[Angelus_dead]

Why would he? That'd be plain silly. Even from a pure rogue!

You're saying that a pure rogue shouldn't be able to hide without also being magically invisible? That's silly.

[BlueLightBandit]

You're saying that a pure rogue shouldn't be able to hide without also being magically invisible? That's silly.

No, he's saying that with potions available en mass (and a class with UMD as a class skill for wands) that it would be silly to NOT make yourself magically invisible AS WELL AS using the complimentary rogue skills.

[Hvymetal]

No, he's saying that with potions available en mass (and a class with UMD as a class skill for wands) that it would be silly to NOT make yourself magically invisible AS WELL AS using the complimentary rogue skills.

Agreed, however it is kinda lame that we have to resort to that

[QuantumFX]

Unless you have the feat hide in plain sight, or invis, you cannpt hide while being observed.

Check out the Creating a Diversion to Hide portion of the bluff skill.

On Topic: The AI should be smarter to emulate the ability to hide if they've lost Line of Sight. Having to suck down invisibility pots is just lame.

[Ghoste]

Check out the Creating a Diversion to Hide portion of the bluff skill.

On Topic: The AI should be smarter to emulate the ability to hide if they've lost Line of Sight. Having to suck down invisibility pots is just lame.

Yup, listed that one a bit later in the thread.

[GeneralDiomedes]

You could lose aggro before merely by running away fast enough. Often, it happened randomly if you simply didn't register a hit on something for more than about 10 seconds if you were a moderate distance away. Invisibility or hiding was not required.

My guess is they just made monsters less prone to losing aggro when they fixed (or attempted to fix) the pet bug.

[baddax]

Well from what i see it is not Sneak or Invisibility that is broken, it is the game mechanic called agro! IRL if someone comes in my house smacks me upside the head and runs away i pesonally dont care if he is invis or hiding or whatever im gonna find the SOB! also i think there should be a reasonable assumption that if the monsters cannot see or hear you that they cannot follow you (which doesnt shed agro). ie. rogue runs away and sneak around 2 an interesection, Mob doesnt know if he went right or left. So i think that the mobs intelligence and senses should come into play. is their a trail of blood? visible signs of passage? Noise? is he smelly barbarian? etc etc. also from my memory rangers had a tracking skill which would seem to be useful. ie rogue runs away from mob and hides mob uses d100 + track skill to try and locate intruder. then after ax amount of time 1-5 min then mob goes back to original locations.