Two kinds of people........

[Cyr]

I agree with OP. I am asking for buffs all the time. There is no reason to be asking for them in shroud, people know the quest, they know what is needed in there to make it go smooth;y. They should know that an 11 minute clickie (pretty much the most duration your going to get out of a non stoneskin clickie) will just not do it...not in part 1, not in part 4, not in part 5. The point of buffs in the shroud is pretty simple...you can recharge your mana before jumping forward, so no reason not to buff. In regular quests maybe a little less. In reaver no excuse not to buff. Zero reason whatsoever, the charge is childs play to get and you can jump out for mana.

I am seeing not just a decline in buffage out there but a real and serious decline in quality of arcane play. No CC comes up all the time, no wands for extra damage in part five (clearly since why would the arcanes want to use any plat , and the wizards who do not stock the debuffs for part five. It is the barbarian mentality of kill count with people thinking that arcanes are only nukers...if played that way they are hardly worth having in your party especially in raids or elite content.

[FluffyCalico]

no wands for extra damage in part five .

HAHA have you done part 5? Because with a statement like that I doubt it.

Try damaging big red with wands LMAO He will resist everytime and then his DR kicks in unless you are a gimp wand spec sorc. Not to mention 1/4 the DPS of spells. You can actually do more damage standing the the pool and casting at him (untell they are gone) but the best use of your spell points there is renewing buffs and debuffs. A caster DPSing in part 5 is just making it harder on the party and the clerics. DPSing the boss in 5 is the least effective way to use your spell points there.

[BigNastyMP]

Cyr has done part 5. Part 5 wand DPS comes from (among others) force missle wands: no resist, no DR, no save. Casters can contribute by blasting Harry and then refreshing their mana in part 5. I guess some people have the attitude that using mana for DPS is laughable /shrug. I laugh at people who still use wood and steel for their DPS.

As for buffs, ask me for what you need and I will cast it on you.

CC was fun back in the day and it still has its part in the game. But why mass hold when you can cone of cold? Why hypnotize when you can firewall?

I get this feeling I play a very different game than other people do.

[Dexxaan]

I get this feeling I play a very different game than other people do.

/agreed

/salute (long time since we´ve tried pounding the Abbot!)

[Lebrac]

Cyr has done part 5. Part 5 wand DPS comes from (among others) force missle wands: no resist, no DR, no save. Casters can contribute by blasting Harry and then refreshing their mana in part 5. I guess some people have the attitude that using mana for DPS is laughable /shrug. I laugh at people who still use wood and steel for their DPS.

As for buffs, ask me for what you need and I will cast it on you.

CC was fun back in the day and it still has its part in the game. But why mass hold when you can cone of cold? Why hypnotize when you can firewall?

I get this feeling I play a very different game than other people do.

Matson brings up HUGE points... Why are cleric's/tanks the only ppl "required" to spend money on themselfs? yes casters can do alot for themselfs but as soon as "some" of them run out of mana they are worthless and basicaly a drain because they do not do the little things like use Force missle wand in part 5 and 6 of the shroud or use Protection wands on the fighters while they fight when they are out of mana. there is still things taht can be done that help the party out. and FWI WEB is the new(and old) disco ball....

ONe other thing matty... U have always played a VERY different game then most casters... considering u have more 2H weapons then most barbarians on the server

[Halpo]

I am sorry on most of my toons I have all the resists and most of the immunites. I am level 16 after all. what else am I going to do with the junk. So when I am on a toon who needs something I ask for it. WOW what a concept I ask for what I need because I know what my character is wearing. How can you expect a caster to know what you are wearing. I'll tell you how... You can't. Heck why should the caster waste mana on buffs you already have from your equipment. Wow lets all do what we do in real life and expect to be coddled like a baby. Yes Coddling ah I miss those days as I live in the real world and ask for what I need to do my job and do not expect someone else to do it. Just my random thoughts on this all.

[soupertc]

Buffs are nice.....buffets are even better when your hungry.

[samagee]

Short answer: I want to have fun too. Not buff you and watch you have fun.

Long answer: Most players do not need all those buffs. And since everyone does every quest on elite, and five lvls below the quest lvl, my casters and especially clerics are out of mana about half way to the next shrine, if we are lucky.

I have probably the best CC specced Sorceror in the game. I can neuter almost every baddie in most quests....but only if I have SP. Without SP, that toon is useless. My Wiz is a different build, and can do light tanking without SP, and I do buff her up so good that she will stay buffed usually till the next shrine, and even if she is out of mana, she can still contribute in a small way, and is usually unharmed most of the time. So in her case, I can still have fun. Also a cleric without SP is sometimes more fun to play cause they can still fight a little too. But just like my Sorc, they are lots of builds out there that are useless without SP, and it's no fun sitting back and watching everyone else have fun after your SP is gone.

I am a firm believer in buffing before a serious fight. Bringing out A game to tackle the end boss. But even then, I have run out of SP so often during a boss fight, and then watched the party start dropping, one by one, as soon as I run out of mana.

Especially true of my CC sorc.....when my SP is gone, people start dying.

Would be nice to group with you and compare cc techniques.

[samagee]

Khanari of Argo. Only recently lvl 14, so not really running with the Uber crowd. "You charmed the named Orthan?!"

But since there are no other CC specced Sorcs in the game, it might not be as big a boast as it seems.

I've been spam casting CC spells with that toon from lvl 1 and kept her Cha maxed and all her feats to support DC and spell penetration.

Granted there might be people with higher stats and better items......but from what I have seen the rest of the word thinks CC is casting disco ball in a door.

Now....I only recently got high enough with her to get that great ball, and I admit it does seem to change things a lot. I'm still trying to decide if it makes all my other CC spells obsolete or not.

But since everyone only respects Nukers and kill counts, I suppose none of it matters.

We really need to meet. Your world is rather small it seems.

Just from experience I will tell you that disco ball does not make the others obsolete. You will want mind fog down as well when you get to the higher content areas, as well as symbol of stunning. I say this because when they save against the disco madness, you want them stopped with the symbol of stunning. Couple those with heightened cloudkills and other things like maximized acid rain and such. You have a nicely controlled battle field.

[debo]

People run out of mana in part 5? Am I the only one with 700+ Major pots?

[mudfud]

People run out of mana in part 5? Am I the only one with 700+ Major pots?

Not me. Last count I had 1200...I took advantage of the AH craze when 100 majors were only 200k..
I knew Turbine would fix that problem with duping.

[debo]

Not me. Last count I had 1200...I took advantage of the AH craze when 100 majors were only 200k..
I knew Turbine would fix that problem with duping.

MUD! Where you been? If you don't play no more how bout you send those majors over to me... these pugs are draining my supply lol.

[mudfud]

MUD! Where you been? If you don't play no more how bout you send those majors over to me... these pugs are draining my supply lol.

I do play silly wabbit! You just never on when I am...work you know...I am not a trust fund kiddie like you and can sit around all day playing ddo anymore.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

We really need to meet. Your world is rather small it seems.

Just from experience I will tell you that disco ball does not make the others obsolete. You will want mind fog down as well when you get to the higher content areas, as well as symbol of stunning. I say this because when they save against the disco madness, you want them stopped with the symbol of stunning. Couple those with heightened cloudkills and other things like maximized acid rain and such. You have a nicely controlled battle field.

Assuming you are on Sarlona, unfortunately the only caster I have there is a very low lvl brd.

Like you mentioned before, CC is a whole discussion in itself.

The original point I was trying to make here is how many other things I have to spend SP on instead of buffs.

My Concept for my Sor was to max out spell DC and cast spells as quick as possible to stop as many baddies as I could.
it has worked very well.....but uses SP very fast.

Khanari is an Elf, but I've started a similar Sor as a Drow. Should be even better.

at low lvls I would cast Hypno, Web, Scare over and over again until every monster had stopped fighting. Now I find I do more Hold Monsters and Flesh to Stone's than anything else.....but I cast them a lot!

I really use SP very fast in every fight. But every fight is down-right easy because of it.
I've never seen another caster use CC this way. But it's something best done as a Sor because of the faster casting and shorter cooldown times.

But in dedicating feats and ability score points for this, I feel I am useless without SP.
So I really have an aversion to casting a lot of buffs on others. They won't need tham anyway, because nothing will be hurting them. (usually)

Good nukers get good results too though. I've been amazed at how powerful even a lowbie nuker build can be.
I'm sure they would rather use their SP for attacks than buffing others as well.

if everything is dead or disabled, no one needs buffs.

[BigNastyMP]

Mud & Luka, I hate you both

I admit, I have an addiction to the pots. At first it was just the cure serious wound potions that had me hooked. Moon told me carry a couple stacks of 100. I could never keep that many, I just kept drinking them. Even when I'm at full health I just like their taste too much.
Then I tried the major mana pots, aka Matson candy. My goodness! If you think it tingles and provides a good rush when a cleric DVs you, wait until you quaff some Matson candy, that is quite the high. I am willing to sell my soul, mind and/or body for mana pots if y'all know anyone interested.
Special thanks to Angel and Broodlin for feeding my addiction.

[Necro_Jill]

I am just a lowly plebe and my input is probably not wanted nor appreciated, but I just wanted to say that when I'm on my caster I throw (at least what I conisder) a standard buff set, resists, blur. I don't usually throw GH unless it is asked for. I do this because I know alot of ppl with a gird, and I don't mind hittin ppl with it if they ask. Or any other buff that they would like. I don't really care for nuking (although I'm fairly proficient at it) I find it more fun to lock down the mobs and let the tanks have their way with them, also it saves me mana to re-up spells later. I kinda see my role as a caster as a slaver of the tanks, I can command them by holding mobs, they run to see their crit numbers. I possess their buffs, and can stop a whole party with two simple words..."Haste here." It's a mutual benefit towards teamplay. I do understand why some don't like to buff or prefer nuking, it's just a game and everyone does what is fun to them.

And I agree, for a change, with supertc... buffets are awesome.


edit: Also, I spend alot in groups. I umd heal scrolls with a 90% chance and keep a stock of wands, to make up for low sp in stock

[soupertc]

[QUOTE=Necro Jill;1690748]
And I agree, for a change, with supertc... buffets are awesome.


**** skippy man.....real **** skippy.

[Solmage]

I am sorry on most of my toons I have all the resists and most of the immunites. I am level 16 after all. what else am I going to do with the junk. So when I am on a toon who needs something I ask for it. WOW what a concept I ask for what I need because I know what my character is wearing. How can you expect a caster to know what you are wearing. I'll tell you how... You can't. Heck why should the caster waste mana on buffs you already have from your equipment. Wow lets all do what we do in real life and expect to be coddled like a baby. Yes Coddling ah I miss those days as I live in the real world and ask for what I need to do my job and do not expect someone else to do it. Just my random thoughts on this all.

/signed.

On my melee I don't need true seeing, greater heroism, any resists, nor any protections. Anything on top of that I'd gladly take but it's a waste of your mana to give me any of those.

[Cyr]

Thanks for the backup Matson didn't check this corner of the forums in a few days. Clearly some people have NOT run the shroud nearly enough times WITHOUT bugging if they do not understand how force missile wands work. hehe, will be laughing for days about that dr comment

[Tahlyn]

i'm noticing this trend not just in the reaver raid, but throughout questing. buffing has become some sort of evil request. like if you ask for buffs you are not a good enough player because obviously you aren't self-sufficient.

Edit: and it seems like i am a copy... of Original... hmmm

A group is a team right? I want the team to win and live through it. When I play a buffing role there are only two reason's why someone would have to ask for a buff,

1) The group is zerging so much I can't make use of mass buffs without casting over and over, (just to catch everyone)
2) Someone else in the group is casting the same or better buffs.

Lot's of complaints in the forums that all add up to people not being team players.. too much self centered going on.