Two kinds of people........

[Laggin]

those who do, and those who choose to stand around and wait for someone else to do it.

Now I'm the first to admit my WF Barb will stand around and not do a **** thing in the reaver. Its because society tells me I'm to hard to heal. Now I know everyones cleric heals WF's, till its brass tax time. WF's know what I'm talking about. Now if they need me I'll be in the front row. Like I always say, "I promise they will only hit me 50% of the time with displacement."

It just lately it seems noone buffs, unless you twist peoples arms. Have to ask for Disco balls, displacement, haste, spells to debuff the giant.

Basically what I'm askin' is, "when did that quest become 3 people do all the work and everyone else just stand around?"

[Lithic]

Basically what I'm askin' is, "when did that quest become 3 people do all the work and everyone else just stand around?"

About 12mins after they made raid loot a % chance drop for everyone in the group. Before that, it was 2-3-4manned and everyone did something.

[Dexxaan]

Great Question Laggin, and definitely the BEST answer I´ve seen to a thread in a long time.


I remember the good ol days when 2-4 Tops would reaver and get your loot and then log your next character and rinse and repeat as many as 5 times......... Now u have to almost beg to get a full party so that there´s a slim chance to get something to drop, and also pray they don´t do much at all unless DBall-s Heals and the Tank....most Reaver Wipes are caused by too many helpers getting owned thinking they´re uber and causing Clerics to get reative in juggling who do I heal and where are they....Opps Anti-Grav and Cleric-Khebabbed in 2 seconds..... Things like that.

[Original]

I have noticed it with my cleric... lack of disco balls. We may not wipe, but I hate getting tossed around trying to heal and not see even one disco ball up. Also the nice buffs like tumble to name one, I have to ask for... before it was a given.

[Caelan]

i'm noticing this trend not just in the reaver raid, but throughout questing. buffing has become some sort of evil request. like if you ask for buffs you are not a good enough player because obviously you aren't self-sufficient.

i understand to a certain extent the desire to save mana, but proper buffing will save mana for the entire party. why be so stingy? so you can cast one or two more uber-insta-kill spells and look oh-so-super-cool?

and for those clerics with dv's, i've noticed some of you watch who is doing the buffing and give the mana back but others don't. you just watch to see who is out first. often the guy who didn't bother to buff his party members also didn't care about managing his sp and ends up getting rewarded with those dvs. unfair, especially to my bard who has way fewer sp to start with and spends a good amount on keeping people super-buffed.

oh... and the next time a bard gives you grtr hero, blur, freedom of movement, 4 different buffing songs, etc, share the love and don't make her use a wand for those energy resists!

Edit: and it seems like i am a copy... of Original... hmmm

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

Being a firm believer in buffing, I also find myself wondering in some instances why there are those who are anti-buff. Sometimes I think it's just because they are lazy and in too big of a hurry. But I am the laziest person alive and I buff upfront so the whole quest goes smoother, cause I'm lazy. I want an easy go of it in quests and buffage helps me do that. So it can't just be that... So what is it then, I wonder?

Every character I have that can buff, does buff. My main being a Bard, I learned early on the value of buffage and I apply that to all my characters. For those of my characters that don't buff, I de-buff: curse-spewing air ellies, destruction on nasty baddies, etc.. I always feel the need to contribute to party success is some way, shape or form. So what makes me different?

I think about it alot when I am on my Rogue especially. It is then that I really get to see the lack of buffs, on my Bards, if someone doesn't hit me with something, I can usually get it myself, so no biggie. But on my rogue is when I really have time to consider the "buffage" issue. How many times have I sat at the entrance to the Shroud during buff time, the Wizard handing out a TON of buffs and yet there are 3 clerics there and nobody has True Seeing? Is it because they want to preserve mana? Are they just too lazy to run back out to get the mana back? Is it less of a pain to hit people inside when they need it on a displaced portal? I'm sorry, doing it upfront is just the easiest way to go. It just is. Yet that one buff is something you ALWAYS here people saying inside, "Portal displaced, True Seeing please." So then, in the middle of everything, three clerics start handing out True Seeing to everyone and probably double casting to get it on peeps, wasting mana, etc.. Just do it at the beginning and forget about it I say. So why don't they? What is the real reason for the anti-buff part of the population?

Well, I think it really comes down to two types of people: team players and non-team players (or shall I say, selfish peeps). The selfish types want all the rewards with as little work as possible on their part, gives the appearance of being lazy but that's not really the driver, it's just selfish behaviour is all. It mimics real life, there are always going to be those who see that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and those who think that theory is bunk.

True story, in the Shroud on my Tempest Ranger. Got lots of nice buffs, 3 clerics with full mana and the Wizard says, "Is there anything I missed?" I typed, "Could I get a True Seeing?". Wizard says, "Don't have it memmed, the Clerics will have to hit you with it." One of the Clerics then types, "I only buff people who say please." (Or some a**hole comment to that effect). See, now that ticked me off because I am a buffer. In fact I have Neutralize Poison and Protection from Energy memmed on my Ranger so I can give them out to people who need them. I had just finished putting Neut Poison on those few who I knew couldn't cast it themselves, just in case. So I typed, "OK, no problem. Doesn't matter to me if the portals take longer to drop, lol." And I see another Cleric give me True Seeing. Then later in the quest I hear, "Can someone hand out True Seeing to the fighter types please? We need those portals to drop as fast as possible!" Well, d'uh...

Anyway, it's something that is always going to be there, human nature just isn't going to change. It's nice to understand why though. These are just my thoughts on the matter. I could be wrong! Maybe these folks actually have legitimate reasons for not buffing? To each their own...

[fiftyone]

You Want Buffs without having to Ask?

Group with Banira el Reshid!

Greater Heroism
Stoneskin
Jump (best spell in the game!)
Protection from Energy
Resist Energy
Haste

And Displacement

My stoneskin ingredient stack ran out last week.

/cry

that was an expensive reup

(Banira also comes with disco ball, wall of fire, cloudkill, solid fog, grease, summon monster I, numerous damaging AoE spells, scorching ray, phantasmal killer, finger of death, magic missile and flying darts/knives/gnomes/falchions - Batteries not included - void where prohibited)

[Olithian]

When I play my cleric, it's just second nature to throw out mass buffs but I have gotten out of habit to give True Seeing, etc. Mostly this was due to many folks saying either they don't want it or have a clicky for it. But by all means if you want/need it ask for it. I have no problem handing it out .

[Solmage]

Being a firm believer in buffing, I also find myself wondering in some instances why there are those who are anti-buff. Sometimes I think it's just because they are lazy and in too big of a hurry. But I am the laziest person alive and I buff upfront so the whole quest goes smoother, cause I'm lazy. I want an easy go of it in quests and buffage helps me do that. So it can't just be that... So what is it then, I wonder?

I don't speak for the shroud, because on actually hard quests I simply bite the bullet and buff everyone, but perhaps I can shed some light as to why *I* buff less than I once did, for good or ill.

- I'm in the middle of buffing and some tank just takes off and zergs ahead. This is SPECIALLY true on my wizard who takes more than twice the time to buff than my sorcerer (he also has more buffs, like tumble for reaver or true seeing..)

- A lot of good players CAN buff themselves (not claiming those who can't aren't good tho!), but many do greater heroism and stuff on themselves out of habit, have perma blur on, etc. Eventually when grouping with people you don't know, it's easier if someone simply asks for what they can't do themselves, as it saves me mana, which brings us to:

- Mana. On my sorc, I don't care as much, but on my wizard, **** do I care. Ever !*#^ mana potion is now about 10k plat. I refuse to pay 10 to 20k plat every time to run a given quest. The tanks that will fight the creatures just outside the crowd control, the ones that rush after me when I say 'I'm going to pull some more creatures back into the (extended & heightened btw) dancing ball' and then stand there and fight them instead of dragging them back to said ball, forcing me to waste mana on a delayed blast fireball or cone of cold to force them to get into the CC, I toss a hypnotism on 4 devils and 4 tanks go each aggro one, at the same time, etc, I could list a page worth of it but it would be little more than whining.

The short version: I buff less because tanks waste my mana, so I have to save it.

- The ineffective teammates. Either those that have no dps (or misc. killing power - vorpals, w/p, whatever) or no defense at all requiring me to cc EVERY single little mob, instead of just the larger groups. Also, explain to me why on running with devils, who of course everyone wanted to run on elite and I insisted we try it on hard at most instead, my wizard who is doing ALL the CC is also having to do 40% of the killing on hard, with a sorcerer in the group and 3 tanks. 2 potions went. Sigh.

In the end, with people I know and trust, or whom I have a reason to believe they will not waste my mana, I will gladly buff. But team play does not start and end with the caster buffing, you know.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Short answer: I want to have fun too. Not buff you and watch you have fun.

Long answer: Most players do not need all those buffs. And since everyone does every quest on elite, and five lvls below the quest lvl, my casters and especially clerics are out of mana about half way to the next shrine, if we are lucky.

I have probably the best CC specced Sorceror in the game. I can neuter almost every baddie in most quests....but only if I have SP. Without SP, that toon is useless. My Wiz is a different build, and can do light tanking without SP, and I do buff her up so good that she will stay buffed usually till the next shrine, and even if she is out of mana, she can still contribute in a small way, and is usually unharmed most of the time. So in her case, I can still have fun. Also a cleric without SP is sometimes more fun to play cause they can still fight a little too. But just like my Sorc, they are lots of builds out there that are useless without SP, and it's no fun sitting back and watching everyone else have fun after your SP is gone.

I am a firm believer in buffing before a serious fight. Bringing out A game to tackle the end boss. But even then, I have run out of SP so often during a boss fight, and then watched the party start dropping, one by one, as soon as I run out of mana.

Especially true of my CC sorc.....when my SP is gone, people start dying.

[Dexxaan]

I have probably the best CC specced Sorceror in the game. That´s quite the statement, although I cannot consider myself an Aerenal-Sarlona Server Judge of CC Sorcs......I can say you have not made a mark worth noting.....maybe I´ve not grouped with you? Nor any in my guild have made comments about your prowess. But to probably be the best in THE GAME? WOW, I´m humbled.

I am a firm believer in buffing before a serious fight. Bringing out A game to tackle the end boss. But even then, I have run out of SP so often during a boss fight, and then watched the party start dropping, one by one, as soon as I run out of mana. If party members are dropping as soon as you are out of mana then I wanna know who these Prom-Queens are that rely on you for a needed haste, don´t have an emergeny Gird and start going down without you...let´s not even start talking about saves and Armor Class....

Especially true of my CC sorc.....when my SP is gone, people start dying.

I recommend you do what another Sorcerer did a long time ago and when you run Velah....snatch the Sword of Shadows...that way you an tense-Up and Solo the rest of the quest and leave the Prom-Queens Stones´ lying on the floor.

[Penthur]

I have probably the best CC specced Sorceror in the game.

... oh ****... I guess there is no point going on...

*ends subscription*

ummm... wait a sec... Who?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I recommend you do what another Sorcerer did a long time ago and when you run Velah....snatch the Sword of Shadows...that way you an tense-Up and Solo the rest of the quest and leave the Prom-Queens Stones lying on the floor.

Khanari of Argo. Only recently lvl 14, so not really running with the Uber crowd. "You charmed the named Orthan?!"

But since there are no other CC specced Sorcs in the game, it might not be as big a boast as it seems.

I've been spam casting CC spells with that toon from lvl 1 and kept her Cha maxed and all her feats to support DC and spell penetration.

Granted there might be people with higher stats and better items......but from what I have seen the rest of the word thinks CC is casting disco ball in a door.

Now....I only recently got high enough with her to get that great ball, and I admit it does seem to change things a lot. I'm still trying to decide if it makes all my other CC spells obsolete or not.

But since everyone only respects Nukers and kill counts, I suppose none of it matters.

[unionyes]

I used to buff everyone all the time, until people told me that they didn't need them and they had clickies or items.

Then I asked people if they needed buffs, and gave them accordingly, until I ran into a few people who would then ask for fire/acid/cold/electric/sonic/bulls/bears/fear/etc in Tanglefoot.

Now I usually wait until after the first battle and hit people with what I haven't seen them self buff for, or what they seem to be taking tons of damage from. If someone, unprompted, asks for a specific buff or two I am happy to hit them with it, and will at that time ask if anyone else needs fire or whatever the buff is.

Specific quests I just will say things like 'We need fire and acid in here, does anyone need?'

Group buffs will be thrown out at the a start of the quest, after shrining, and after a couple of deaths if they happen at the same time.

My sorcerer doesn't have a lot of buffs, but can throw out Jump, GH, Stoneskin (you get the level 16 version, I use the Seal Of Earth for myself), Blur, and Resist Energy as needed. Yeah I have lots of manna, but not that many buffs. That sorcerer that you remember buffing you so well that one time was probably a wizard

My cleric, naturally, has a lot of buffs, but would prefer to give them out as needed since I will basically be standing there trying to keep people alive. Yes buffs help, but unnecessary buffs are just a waste of manna, and when that runs out I am using wands and scrolls.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

... oh ****... I guess there is no point going on...

*ends subscription*

ummm... wait a sec... Who?

I suppose winning a race that no one else competes in, might put a damper on my fame.

[Dexxaan]

Assuming no one else competes with you in this game or RL for that matter, is a mistake you´ll pay for dearly.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Assuming no one else competes with you in this game or RL for that matter, is a mistake you´ll pay for dearly.

I'm trying to take all of this in fun, but there's no reson for you to mention RL in this.

As far as the game goes, it is my opinion that no one even uses CC.....ever. Nor does anyone respect it.

This post is about people buffing or not.

for the most part there are two kinds of players. Those who want to be buffed up to kill things fast, and those who refuse to cast buffs, so they have more SP to kill things fast with.

Both just want a high kill count.

The toon I mentioned is similar to the nuker mindset....where I want my SP so I can cast spells constantly and have fun too.
Not buff everyone else so I can sit around and watch them have fun.
My build has left me feeling all-powerful when I have SP and useless without.

I PUG. All the Uber elite complain about PUGs. Lots of people complain on these forums about people trying quests to hard for them....etc.

great use of CC makes any quest easy......super easy....until I run out of SP.

Sorry if my boasting offended anyone. Maybe I'm not the best CC specced Sorc out there. But the one who is better is equally unknown and unrespected. (note: FOD is not CC!)

When you have hot keys ready for CC spells and cast them extremely fast, and get 98% of monsters to fail their saves the first time, I would say that is very good.

And in my experiance, no one else does it.

But we are starting to really digress from this thread, and I'm trying really hard not to take any of these comments as a personal attack.

If you have a good CC specced char, then are playing styles would probably compliment each other well. But playing nice with others is even more important.

[Solmage]

But since there are no other CC specced Sorcs in the game, it might not be as big a boast as it seems.

An amusing, yet incorrect assumption.

Granted there might be people with higher stats and better items......but from what I have seen the rest of the word thinks CC is casting disco ball in a door.

You make a lot of assumptions.

I suspect you have an actual, possibly interesting point to make that is being lost in these, and if so perhaps you should start a thread about it.

[genericearthling]

I have noticed it with my cleric... lack of disco balls. We may not wipe, but I hate getting tossed around trying to heal and not see even one disco ball up. Also the nice buffs like tumble to name one, I have to ask for... before it was a given.

hobnail boots

[Emag]

I think it may because a lot of buffing type classes expect tanks to have many self buffs, such as girds, prot pots, resist cloaks, dw clickies and other things like that.