Constructive Critique of Shroud and other levels.

[ccheath776]

Kristov -
Your comparing apples to oranges in a way. An FPS to an RPG. The two dont really mix when comparing death penalties. One is a "match" scenario and the other is a quest.
Match is an all out fight to the end. A quest is a series of stories you follow to completion.

But regardless, CS was successful for many reasons other than the death penalty. Thats like saying the Ferrari is one of the most popular cars because of its leather seats. By that reasoning I should be able to make a 1970's gremlin as popular as the Ferarri right?
Your comments and comparison where an interesting read as it raised a valid point. Your comment on my knowledge was uncalled for and was ignored. I said in the beggining were I got my knowledge and wont say much beyond that because I dont want it to seem like I am trying to be a know it all expert because I am not. Irregardless of my knowledge it should not matter when starting a discussion on a game mechanic that I think could be improved. Doesn't mean it should be, will be, or that it can be based on anything I said. Its something I see and this is my opinion. Thats all. If I came out here and starting quoting my knowledge or where I go to school or where I got trained people would say I am being rude, if I dont say it people think I dont have enough knowledge. Theres a catch 22 if I ever saw one.

I am willing to concede that you should not be able to jump back at part 4 if you fail. The reasons offered were reasonable as people run part 1 - 3 anyway for the crafting. BTW the fact that the crafting portion can only be done by completing a quest is also a slight flaw, but not one I disagree with. That adds risk VS reward. If I want to craft my high end weapon i need to earn it. I agree with that.

I think I can sum up the best ideas I have seen in this discussion.
Its hard to tell if most people like the penalty box or not. Some say its a challenge and reasonable one. Those who say this seem to also say that the Shroud was designed as quoted by turbine to be only for the power players. I have seen a lot of quotes from turbine and maybe I missed that part. If that is the case then that is also a flaw. You dont design with only one type of player in mind. You can, but it should be specifically stated as such.
My opinion I dont think the shroud is just for power players. I dont think any raids are.
the shroud is the most funnest raid I have ever had to flag for because the quests were fun.

When asked it was actually very difficult to find flaws in the shroud but if I had to point to one I would say it is the penalty box. Reason 1: It takes the player out of the fight. You want the player involved and to get the "light through the window syndrome" They get on the computer at night and play till morning without noticing it.
Reason 2: Taking away a mechanic ( ressing ) with little or no explenation as to why other than to add challenge is an improvement that I see. Challenges are good to have but there are ways to make them for different people and different play styles. This essentially other than healing takes the cleric out of the equation. IN many other fights the cleric has a way to control the fight and keep it going by learning skills in keeping people alive and bringing them back to life when dead. This makes them valuable.
Its not that big of a deal and not one that would make me stop playing the shroud but Turbine asks for our opinion and this is one I wanted to give because thats all it is, an opinion. People have a right to agree or disagree.

[Drith]

With no risk there is no reward. With no feeling of achievement there is no gratitude.

Thus is the way of the MMO.

Risk is important to make a fun game. High levels of risk are adrenaline rushes.

[oronisi]

Let me just say that while I appreciate the effort OP, I disagree with the fundamental basis of your arguement....game theory is total ****. Don't repeat something if you fail? Sorry, no. That's the sort of **** for 10 year olds playing on their xbox. In sports, you repeat until you get it right. In real life, you better repeat until you get it right. That sort of earned reward is what makes rewards worth obtaining. If you are given a reward even for failure, it removes all fun and achievement from the event.

But I will have to say I enjoyed the post and the intelligent way it was presented. I just disagree.

[Oreg]

Personally I think the raid was more challenging and more fun when the "holding tank" applied to part 2 as well. When it comes to part 5 I am torn. I could go either with or without it on that stage. Part 4 it should stay in. It's supposed to be hard for goodness sakes. There will come a time in the not to distant future where it will be a cakewalk (it almost is now even without the thatwhichshallnotbenamed). Enjoy the challenge while it still is one.

[Asirin]

The "holding tank" as you call it is often reffered to as the Loser's lounge....if you aren't doing your best to avoid it you end up there (with the exception of the recent server lag)....taking on a Pit Fiend requires very few mistakes...Turbine just upped the Ante abit and I like it.

[ccheath776]

The "holding tank" as you call it is often reffered to as the Loser's lounge....if you aren't doing your best to avoid it you end up there (with the exception of the recent server lag)....taking on a Pit Fiend requires very few mistakes...Turbine just upped the Ante abit and I like it.

I dont mind the holding tank or loser lounge as you call it , do you think a design to where it would be possible for someone to get out? by some manner would be good as long as it was fun?

[bobbryan2]

Let me just say that while I appreciate the effort OP, I disagree with the fundamental basis of your arguement....game theory is total ****. Don't repeat something if you fail? Sorry, no. That's the sort of **** for 10 year olds playing on their xbox. In sports, you repeat until you get it right. In real life, you better repeat until you get it right. That sort of earned reward is what makes rewards worth obtaining. If you are given a reward even for failure, it removes all fun and achievement from the event.

But I will have to say I enjoyed the post and the intelligent way it was presented. I just disagree.

Umm, no?

If you screw up in sports, you practice that drill until you get it right. You don't start over with the basics of how to hold a bat if you swing and miss at a fastball.

The not repeating thing is only a reference to not repeating parts you've beaten. I.E. Losing in part 4 would allow you to start part 4 over, but not having to repeat 1-3 which you already just beat.

Really... it wouldn't be that big of a deal to me... except that I hate part 1 soooooo much. They dropped the ball on part 1 big time.

[ccheath776]

Umm, no?

If you screw up in sports, you practice that drill until you get it right. You don't start over with the basics of how to hold a bat if you swing and miss at a fastball.

The not repeating thing is only a reference to not repeating parts you've beaten. I.E. Losing in part 4 would allow you to start part 4 over, but not having to repeat 1-3 which you already just beat.

Really... it wouldn't be that big of a deal to me... except that I hate part 1 soooooo much. They dropped the ball on part 1 big time.

Question - What part of part 1 is the most un-enjoyable?
Just out of curiosity

[rimble]

I still like the OPs post. This post came to mind last night after the Pit Fiend in Part 4 put me in time out for 20 minutes (we ended up losing). I know, I know...don't die...but if I DO...standing around for 20 minutes is not fun game design...

Same with the Reaver.

Please, no more 'penalty boxes'. Don't necessarily have to make death conventional where we can just be raised and jump right back into the fight, but no more time outs. I feel like a punished three year old.

[moorewr]

Question - What part of part 1 is the most un-enjoyable?
Just out of curiosity

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"Ok, next portal is in the center!"

[QuantumFX]

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"Ok, next portal is in the center!"

LOL! Add in "Hey Mal why are you still beating on that portal? We're on the next one!" while I'm still looking at all my pretty damage numbers flying on the portal that was supposedly destroyed.

OP: While I'm glad that the discussion has progressed, I'm sorry that you have to deal with all the knee jerk forum trolls that feel our GM is somehow magically infallable and immune to critique. Our developers have shown that they are very good at taking critique and are interested in making a great game even more fun.

I honestly think the Shroud format is the way to go with future raid structure. (Though toning down the amount of time to complete would be a welcome change.) The preraid/raid structure used in the past has proven to be confusing or abused at every turn. (ex. Confusion over whether you're flagged for the DQ, ppl not completing the Twilight Forge to get to the Titan, the Tor/Abbot perraid only being good for lootruns.) Velah is an exception because you have no choice but to complete all the objectives to move onto her.

However, the shroud does need some refining that I think could benefit from your posts.

- Personally, I like the "time out" penalty box in the instances because it does encourage you to "don't die". (It's the original intent of the mechanic.) It would be cool if only your soulstone was transported to the penalty box and that a timely raise dead would keep you in the fight. This encourages good team play and less "only 2 or 3 people do all the heavy lifting".

- The portals between parts of the raid should stabilize once you complete that part of the raid. (Ex. The portal from the entrance to the Gauntlet should stabilize once you complete the gauntlet.) This is necessary because of Turbine's new crapshoot mechanic of what happens when you DC. (You're either still in the quest with a nonsensical debuff or teleported back to newb central.) Taking people out of a raid because of stuff that can be outside of Turbine/Player control is just wrong.

- A lot of the mechanics should also be toned down to resemble their P&P counterparts. The Shavarath bladestorms are a great example. They should be rolling against our AC and be aggroing at random and following a victim around in a slower moving version of "the Birds". It still meets the developer's goal of making people run around but limits the lag monster's ability to ruin someone's game. Flying around in a pattern doesn't "separate the men from the boys" it only separates the good internet providers from the bad ones.

- Smarter AI. The infamous bug in part 5 just goes to show that humans are apt to take the path of least resistance. This applies to both developers (for not fixing a bug that's apparently been around forever) and players (for exploiting this bug).

[Cyr]

/not in agreement

I love how part 4 works. The no res. is a game mechanic method of enforcing a no gimps melee rule that shows people who and who is not capable of meleeing in part 5 effectivly.

As for abbot, yeah it is lame, but it has been beaten w/o any cheese used.