Constructive Critique of Shroud and other levels.

[KristovK]

I'm thinking the OP doesn't actually know much about computer games, especially online games, or about gamers.

Lets take an online game that's been around for a while now, even has a sequal, and is the most played online game in the FPS genre...Counterstrike.

What happens when you die in Counterstrike? You sit and watch the rest of the people play the game until the round ends. You don't get to come back into the game world, you don't get to do anything but watch the people still alive play.

This went over so badly that Counterstrike became the MOST played online game in history. It started out as a free mod for the Half Life game and actually became one of the top selling computer games when they put it in a box and charged for it.

Half Life 2 and the sequal to CS, Counterstrike Source, came out and quickly, once again, CSS became the most played online FPS game and topped sales charts yet again.

Obviously online games HATE to die and sit and do nothing while others get to keep playing, this is obviously a seriously screwed up design flaw in the Shroud Pt 4.

Just gotta ask, outside of looking stuff up on the net, where did you learn about video game design and online games?

[BillBob]

Although i understand the principle in which the OP was referring i believe that this concept has lead to the overall degradation in challenge and quality of video games in general over the past 20 years. (my opinion ) The focus of practicing and training through repetitive puzzles and/or hand-eye coordination has fallen way to a passive participation in a story to its end. (there is no 'game over' anymore)

Part 4 is quite unique in DDO as it is one of the few instances where the danger to each and every character is ever present throughout the encounter. It does hearken back to the days of playing side-scrollers where you had to replay the level again (or 1/2 way) if you died to the boss at the end. Wasted resources and inefficiency comes with the lack of experience with the situation. Eventually, more and more people will learn the intricacies of the encounter and it will become easier. I do notice though with the stiff penalties for failure also come the sense of accomplishment with success. Every group (especially pick-up-groups) i was in that finished part 4 and part 5 was quite happy and excited when it was completed. Also, i'm excited to bring new people into these encounters as they get a thrill with the tough battle.

As for people dying, i see that most of these tend to be clerics. It seems the encounter places the cleric in general peril with no accustomed place of relative safety. (especially first character clerics that are relatively new to the game.) [Which i was guilty of being ]

... a few coppers here and there....

[sirgog]

Sorry but I disagree. Part 4 is my favorite part of the Shroud because it is a high-risk, high-action, challenging quest that is non-repetitive. Win or lose it's usually over pretty quickly. One person dying is not a big deal... it's a team effort. The team wins or the team loses. Winning Part 4 feels like an achievement.

If you find Part 4 too hard, I suggest you need to practice more and/or study the successful techniques of others.

Definitely agree.

In fact, I'd call it the only truly fun part of the whole raid. The challenge of 4 (particularly in a weak group) makes up for the drudgery of part 1.

[Angelus_dead]

What happens when you die in Counterstrike? You sit and watch the rest of the people play the game until the round ends. You don't get to come back into the game world, you don't get to do anything but watch the people still alive play.

This went over so badly that Counterstrike became the MOST played online game in history. It started out as a free mod for the Half Life game and actually became one of the top selling computer games when they put it in a box and charged for it.

The reason it works fine in CS is because the round is only about 5 minutes or less, and on average a player won't die until a couple minutes into it. So the time he spends dead isn't much.

That's the same reason it works fine in The Shroud. The time that fight takes just isn't long enough for being in the dead box to be an unreasonable penalty. It CAN become excessively long if your team executes a "slow failure"... 1-4 guys left who keep themselves healed and alive for a long time, but are no longer a real threat to the enemies. In that case, those party members should evaluate the situation and retreat.

[Angelus_dead]

Just gotta ask, outside of looking stuff up on the net, where did you learn about video game design and online games?

Apparently he read the book Bob Bates published on the subject. It's a fine book... that's why I assumed his problem was not a lack of knowledge of game design concepts, but rather unfamiliarity with The Shroud raid.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I do not like the "You roll a 1 it's over" nonsense in part 4, and I also dislike the obscene HP total on Arraetrikos. A challenging quest does not consist of pressing autoattack and waiting for half an hour while a healbot spam cures you(at great monetary expense). Healing classes should not be paying for the raid loot. They currently are.

Agreed. And when Glass and I agree there must be something to it

Those DB fireballs are annoying. I like them, but there should be a mechanism to get the players back (like in Reaver).

The hyper inflation of monster HP is getting silly. Well its beyond silly. Arraekrikos with 10billion HP is not more challenging than 1000 HP, its just slower and more monotonous. Same with the portals, good idea, WAY too many hitpoints. Anywhere that the approved strat is everyone stand on top of each other and autoattack for 30 seconds is a yawnfest. I love being the rover on part 1, otherwise I fall asleep

[jbrownos]

Although i understand the principle in which the OP was referring i believe that this concept has lead to the overall degradation in challenge and quality of video games in general over the past 20 years. (my opinion ) The focus of practicing and training through repetitive puzzles and/or hand-eye coordination has fallen way to a passive participation in a story to its end. (there is no 'game over' anymore)

I want to make a point that isn't really about The Shroud, or DDO necessarily, but is important for gaming in general.

I think that the idea of a game being challenging or even "hard" is fine (and even the point) in some genres. But I think that too many people worry about games being "easy," especially RPGs. In a good RPG, concepts like easy or hard aren't really relevant in the traditional sense. And RPGs by nature aren't really required to be challenging, per se. They are fundamentally about playing a "role," and while characters may be challenged, having fun in the process of roleplaying is the only major challenge required for the player.

Games are fundamentally about having fun (pun not really intended because it's a lame one), and while the challenge-reward system is one way people can have fun playing, it's not the only way. Just because a player isn't having to work hard doesn't mean that the game is poorly designed. And if you are "passively participating in the story," (which is ok if you like that, but it isn't really an RPG in the literal sense) then the problem isn't lack of challenge, it's lack of options and interaction.



To bring this back on topic a little, let me say this: I've never been in the shroud. I've been away from the game for a while and recently have started with a new character. But I'd love to play through it at some point. But not because I care about grinding out components or getting uber loot. I'd like to actually play through it and see what actually happens in the quest.

However, I suspect when my new cleric gets to that point, it will be a wholly unsatisfying experience. Because everyone else is interested in being "challenged" without even having a clue about the actual reason for the quest. So I'll have to run through it doing an exact method that everyone else has repeated ad nauseum, because it's the "best" way possible. And I'll be lucky if I understand anymore of the story than "let's kill the Pit Fiend for some nice loot."

Do I like for my character to gain power and be challenged a little in the process? Sure, but it's not the main reason I play. If everything in the game was just an obstacle to overcome, and my only real fun came from "beating" them for a reward, I'd be bored to tears within a week.

[Angelus_dead]

However, I suspect when my new cleric gets to that point, it will be a wholly unsatisfying experience. Because everyone else is interested in being "challenged" without even having a clue about the actual reason for the quest. So I'll have to run through it doing an exact method that everyone else has repeated ad nauseum, because it's the "best" way possible.

First off, there is little room for variation in that raid. Due to flawed design in part 1 and part 3, there is absolutely no variation in them. In part 4-5 there can be different tactical approaches used for fighting the boss, which actually heavily involve the cleric's abilities in the choice. In part 2 and 5 there is at least a random selection of monsters.

However, the only reason your first Shroud run could be any less satisfying than anyone else's is a social problem: if your group consists of people who tell you what to do, without leaving you time to look around and see what's going on. Of course, resolving that is primarily your responsibility in the selection of your party. However, Turbine didn't help.

They made The Shroud a 12-man raid, and furthermore they designed it such that having close to a full group is important for a successful completion (unlike their earlier raids which called for only 2-4 players to be really involved). That makes it more difficult for you to recruit a team who will permit you to explore for yourself and figure things out. If it were a 6-man quest, it is likely you could get a group willing to go slow and not spoil everything. But when you have 11 other players in there, there's only a small chance that all of them have the patience and free time to let you take you take the lead.

And I'll be lucky if I understand anymore of the story than "let's kill the Pit Fiend for some nice loot."

There is NO story there besides "Devils are bad, hurry and fight them". The players didn't even know a pit fiend was involved until he poofs in front of you and starts throwing fire. (Unless they watched the loading screen advertisements, of course)

The module 7 storyline doesn't even make sense within the Eberron campaign setting. A coterminous zone to Eberron isn't a completely bad thing, because the devils on Shavarath are by definition mostly busy defending themselves from the angels on Shavarath (who are not uncommon, and love to kill devils all day long, except when they're killing demons instead)

[Ydnar]

I wanted to point out something that goes right in line with what the OP has brought up here.

First of all I've been in the Shroud three times, have completed parts 1 - 3 each time, and sat in the penalty box twice. When you get into a quest for the first time, or third time for me, and you tell the other members of the PUG you're in that you are not familiar with the quest, its quite frustrating. Typically there will be one maybe two people who have actually completed the Shroud with the groups I've been able to run with.

The problem is that at 3 AM PST, the ONLY option if you actually want to run the shroud, is to run with a PUG. And your groups is going to be an unbalanced group, of whoever is online vs an optimal group. My guild is awesome and the times I do get to run with them I have an incredibly good time. But those times are rare, as my game time on weekends is from 11:00 PM to 6:00 AM. Yes its cool to be able to play while I'm at work, but the penalty is that I have to run with PUGs whenever I want to do some of the more challenging quests.

My solution, stop running my higher level toon and play lower level toons. Sitting in the penalty box when you got hit for 175 points of damage as soon as the boss appears, is hugely boring. And then you sit there for like 15 minutes and finally everyone deicides that no this is an impossible task and we all bail anyway.

So after my 3rd attempt at doing the shroud, I basically gave up until my situation changes and I can start running with guildies again.

So, with all that being said, yes the Shroud is beatable, and it is challenging. No it cannot be soloed. And it is extremely frustrating trying to run in a PUG, and not knowing what you're supposed to be doing. So I will wait until I can run it with my guild, and learn about what we are actually trying to accomplish, instead of someone telling me to stand here and cast dancing balls until the portal is down, or whatever the specific task is at the moment. My character is a Sorcerer, which I love playing, but in certain quests, its just a pain when you're in a PUG.

BTW, no I don't spend hours looking through the forums, I don't play this game to read the forums. I'm actually only on the forum today do try to find out some info on the MONK character coming out.

For those of you who can play with your guildies, great, for those of us who have to run with PUGs, well I assure you its not nearly as much fun. This is one of the primary reasons I've never done the Titan, DQ, etc..

So I just wanted to give some of you a different point of view to the 'I can accomplish it so it must be simple' respones I see here. Can I learn more about why I died? sure, I got hit for 175 hp of damage with one DB fireball. Avoid it? sure, but the primary reason I stopped playing my 16th lvl character, was because every group I joined to do the Shroud, had no intention of completing it, they only wanted to do 1 - 3, and 'try' part 4. None expected to be able to complete part 4 or even attempt part 5. Why should they, they get really good loot from parts 1-3 and they don't have to wait to run it again. for me this is boring I'll wait till this summer when I can run with my guildies.

[Angelus_dead]

The problem is that at 3 AM PST, the ONLY option if you actually want to run the shroud, is to run with a PUG. And your groups is going to be an unbalanced group, of whoever is online vs an optimal group. My guild is awesome and the times I do get to run with them I have an incredibly good time.

That problem is caused by Turbine's irrational need to add 12-player quests to the game. Of course it's not completely their fault- they are responding to an irrational belief by many customers that quests involving an excessive number of players are more fun.

If The Shroud was a 6-man quest, you would not have this trouble getting balanced groups for it at off-peak times. It would be fairly easy for them to scale The Shroud down to something appropriate for a normal-sized party: just cut off 50% hp from each monster as well as 25% of their damage, and remove half the puzzle rooms in part 3. The gameplay from a non-raid Shroud quest would be almost exactly the same, except for the waiting around for full groups.

At this time, it isn't really difficult to get 12 players together for The Shroud. But when module 7 comes out and Shroud is no longer the #1 highest-level loot in DDO, then it will become difficult for players do experience that raid. The effort put into building it will become somewhat wasted.

[Ydnar]

At this time, it isn't really difficult to get 12 players together for The Shroud. But when module 7 comes out and Shroud is no longer the #1 highest-level loot in DDO, then it will become difficult for players do experience that raid. The effort put into building it will become somewhat wasted.

Exactly, if you want an example, try to run the DQ at 4 AM PST or even Tempest Spine. Although I do have success running the dragon perodically with PUGS, and they can be fun, most players are familiar with that quest.

[moorewr]

My only complaint about the Reaver and Shroud part 4 is that I want to able to watch the action from the holding tank. Stick us close by with a window so we can watch.

Two comments on the OP:
1) Turbine said they wanted the raid to have multiple parts so that any level of player could participate. They wanted parts 4 and 5 to be very challenging, to give the power-gamers something to do, but let the shaky pugs and casual gamers at least enjoy 1-3. In my opinion that's a far better approach than say, the Abbot raid used. That said, your post is likely music to Turbine's ears.

2) Part 4 isn't that bad.. our guild had to fail a few times working out the right tactics, and that's fine. We had a blast, and now that we carry ample protection items, wands, pots, assign clerics to heroes and have everyone keep moving we usually have 0-1 deaths there. The one death/your out thing is a nice challenge.

Part 5 is just tedious to me. It just takes too long even when you have enough DPS. I would have made the straight up fight part 4, here on Eberron, harder with normal death.. and I would have the Pit Fiend in Part substantially easier than he is (but harder than he is in part 4), and have that be the one-death-you're-out phase of the raid.

[Angelus_dead]

Exactly, if you want an example, try to run the DQ at 4 AM PST or even Tempest Spine. Although I do have success running the dragon perodically with PUGS, and they can be fun, most players are familiar with that quest.

Well, you can do Laliat or Tempest fine, because there is no need for a party of more than 4-6 players. If you fight Laliat with a smaller party you may have less DPS and take proportionally more time to win, but that just makes it a 10 minute fight instead of a 5 minute fight, which is an inconsequential difference (compared to the time you spent re-flagging for the raid).

However, to beat Arraetrikos in a reasonable way it is important to have enough players. He gets healed periodically throughout the fight, meaning that if you have half the DPS the battle takes more than twice as long, because he has more chances to heal himself. (And also, obviously, with fewer players the gnolls won't die as fast, so they have more time to cast healing, etc)

So, facing The Shroud with a non-full group will be a bigger obstacle than fighting some other raid that way.

[Angelus_dead]

Part 5 is just tedious to me. It just takes too long even when you have enough DPS.

How so?

If you have enough DPS it takes under 3 minutes. What's tedious about that?

[moorewr]

How so?

If you have enough DPS it takes under 3 minutes. What's tedious about that?

I was tempted to put this down as the usual UBER L33T power gamer reply, but I'll resist.

Can you break it down for this hard-pressed guild cleric? How do you get this level of DPS? What's your party composition, weapons and spells?

[Angelus_dead]

Can you break it down for this hard-pressed guild cleric? How do you get this level of DPS? What's your party composition, weapons and spells?

My preferred party would be 2 clerics, 1 wizard, and 9 hitters, including a Warchanter bard amoung them. The hitters are mainly rogues, rangers, and barbarians. Fighters are passable, but discouraged, because they take more damage and do less. One paladin is a good idea for the save aura, but more than that doesn't stack. All hitters are encouraged to be TWF if possible, THF if otherwise. They all should be 300+ hp and disease immune.

The minimal weapon accepted would be +4 transmuting, although we try to have better like +4 transmuting of righteous, +5 holy silver, or +1 transmuting of greater evil outsider bane. Naturally, some people swing Mineral II weapons, which is just fine. Also, since the normal DR is just 15, players also use Lightning Strike weapons, which is better than a +5 transmuting.

[moorewr]

My preferred party would be 2 clerics, 1 wizard, and 9 hitters, including a Warchanter bard amoung them. The hitters are mainly rogues, rangers, and barbarians. Fighters are passable, but discouraged, because they take more damage and do less. One paladin is a good idea for the save aura, but more than that doesn't stack. All hitters are encouraged to be TWF if possible, THF if otherwise. They all should be 300+ hp and disease immune.

The minimal weapon accepted would be +4 transmuting, although we try to have better like +4 transmuting of righteous, +5 holy silver, or +1 transmuting of greater evil outsider bane. Naturally, some people swing Mineral II weapons, which is just fine. Also, since the normal DR is just 15, players also use Lightning Strike weapons, which is better than a +5 transmuting.

Thank you for the advice! We've been running much more cleric and caster heavy.. (3 clerics, 2-3 casters), which is just a reflection of what's available in our guild for these runs. we've been fighting part 5 like we do part 4 - clerics healing a hero and arcanes passing protection from fire...

Are your clerics using mass cure scrolls? I felt like this did not keep up with damage taken...


(Total aside - I wish the blades actually aimed at you and had to roll to hit. They are too easy to avoid as is.)

[Angelus_dead]

Thank you for the advice! We've been running much more cleric and caster heavy.. (3 clerics, 2-3 casters), which is just a reflection of what's available in our guild for these runs.

That points out an additional problem/issue with the design of quests in the Vale of Twilight. For the 5 requirement quests you want multiple arcane casters and have only minor use for melee damage. But that is reversed in The Shroud, where weapon damage chopping down the boss's hitpoints is of prime importance. So the class proportion needed in the raid isn't supported by the quests leading up to it.

Are your clerics using mass cure scrolls? I felt like this did not keep up with damage taken...

You may like to read this thread. My suggestion would be to go into part 5, ensure you have at least 5 characters ready to attack in melee, and then cast Mass Cure Moderate/Light on the whole group as they fight the boss. Hopefully they will be able to kill Arraetrikos before the clerics run out of spellpoints. But if that doesn't happen, have a plan in place so that some hitters will back away and others will continue fighting as "heros" getting cured by Heal scrolls.

[moorewr]

That points out an additional problem/issue with the design of quests in the Vale of Twilight. For the 5 requirement quests you want multiple arcane casters and have only minor use for melee damage. But that is reversed in The Shroud, where weapon damage chopping down the boss's hitpoints is of prime importance. So the class proportion needed in the raid isn't supported by the quests leading up to it.

QFT! I feel like, in general, there are, in general, too few successful strategies in recetn conten. This is doubly the case for the raids - all of them, except for TS, which is hard to compare to the others.

You may like to read this thread. My suggestion would be to go into part 5, ensure you have at least 5 characters ready to attack in melee, and then cast Mass Cure Moderate/Light on the whole group as they fight the boss. Hopefully they will be able to kill Arraetrikos before the clerics run out of spellpoints. But if that doesn't happen, have a plan in place so that some hitters will back away and others will continue fighting as "heros" getting cured by Heal scrolls.

Thank you for the link...

Our version of the hero method has gone like that - all the heroes in till we're out out of mana, then cycle people in and out as we heal-scroll 'em.

[Josh]

Without repetition it would be a surprisingly short game!

Ha! I suppose your're right on that to a certain extent.