Proposed Change to Summons

[Aspenor]

Reduce the cooldown timer, big-time. 5 minutes? Is there any real logic behind this that makes any sense whatsoever? In PnP you can control more than 1 creature, why relegate summoning to a "distraction" tool for arcanes?

Each level summons should work off a different cool-down timer, and Create Undead should have it's own timer as well. Reduce the timer drastically to 40 seconds.

Add enhancements to drastically increase the CR of the summoned monsters.

[Yaga_Nub]

Reduce the cooldown timer, big-time. 5 minutes? Is there any real logic behind this that makes any sense whatsoever? In PnP you can control more than 1 creature, why relegate summoning to a "distraction" tool for arcanes?

Each level summons should work off a different cool-down timer, and Create Undead should have it's own timer as well. Reduce the timer drastically to 40 seconds.

Add enhancements to drastically increase the CR of the summoned monsters.

I like all of these suggestions. Too bad they were suggested by Asp.

[Aspenor]

I like all of these suggestions. Too bad they were suggested by Asp.

Give me your blue scales, serf!

[Rekker]

Considering that you don't even have control of your summons, why not allow us as many as we want.

[ENGRAV0]

There are a few things that have been bothering me regarding summons:

First, I fully understand inflating the AI creatures, Giving them Metamagics, Unlimited Ammo and Mana, DR that is insane in some places and a few other less noticable things. Notice I said I "Understand" and didn't say that I thought the lack of improved AI was "Justification" or "Approval" for this, just that I understand.

So, that said, the things that I just don't get are:

Why is my Summon monster so much less effective than a Summons created from the AI. Shouldn't their Summons be the exact same as mine? (Usualy refered to as "Balanced").

Why is the AI not restricted on a timer for their Summons? I have seen, in BAN (Specifically) and a few other places where as soon as something is summoned, another creature is summoned immediately following the first one. (Again, Balanced?)

The Earth Grab from the AI goes on and on for the entire time you are ina quest, odd, but whatever. Want an example, try running Rainbow in the Dark, or try running Threnal, there are a LOT of places where this is noticable.

The AI has unlimited range, I have run across half the undead area in the Desert, returned to the shrine, and had the Skeleton Archers still shooting arrows. We tend to refer to them as ICBM Arrows.

Every creature AI in the game that has spell casting seems to have Quicken, they NEVER get interupted, is that "Balanced" in any shape or form?

AI creatures (let's name the Healers in the Shroud for a specific one) that are on a set path, get tripped, stunned, held, whatever, and they continue their path, even though they are immobilized. Is this "Balanced"?

Summon spells on scrolls, well, a 5 minute timer seems rediculous. If they were nearly as powerful, "NEARLY", then a timer would not be as much of a pain, but honestly, they are not. Sure, I can buff my summoned creatures, if they either don't break or die within the first few seconds they are in. I understand the saves and all that they get, but their saves, the creatures that I summon, should have to make a save against "MY" abilities, not against a set #.

Creature AI's in this game seem to have an inate ability to jump and land on ledges that are unable for mee to reach, oddly enough, this happens from the lowest level quest, Good Blades, to the highest (ATM) the Shroud. It might be a little rare in the Shroud, but I am certainly not the only one that has ever seen one of the lieutenants jump on top of the wall in part 2, or a Trog jump on the top ledge of a portal in part 1.

You want to make the AI intelligent? Here is a suggestion, make the AI Agro as it does, at first. First person it sees get's the Agro, then it shifts to the first person that damages it, then it shift's to the person doing the most agro. That part works well, but the issue comes in when using spells such as firewall or well blocked off damage causers, and the AI is unable to get to them. Don't try to make the AI figure another way to the target. here is my thoughts, and these are mine, and the combined thoughts of the general population that I run with. So far, I haven't heard anyone disagree with my idea. Agro initialy goes the same, but is on a timer, per say. If the AI creature is unable to acuire or damage the target, then his agro selection resets, he no longer worries about the guy that has caused the most damage, or the person who has run behind a wall, or whatever, he now selects the closest PC and attacks. If you need an example how this would work, let me provide you with one:

Tanks block the doorway, holding the AI in the room, a caster throws down his firewall. Right now, the AI will remain in that firewall and roast. HOWEVER: if his Agro selection was a shifting one, and not at a rediculous pace, he would, after whatever set time the Dev's felt worthy, select the nearest PC, which might be a tank holding the wall, and begin attacking him. This is more realistic (Dare I say Realistic in a game, LoL) as it is more along the lines of what any animal or sentient being would do, I want to kill you, but I can't get to you because this bonehead is blocking me in, so, I therefor will take him out, and THEN get back to you. Sorry if this takes your topic in a different direction, but I felt that the two, in this case, were tied together with the reasoning behind the timer on the summons spells.

[Laith]

Reduce the cooldown timer, big-time. 5 minutes? Is there any real logic behind this that makes any sense whatsoever? In PnP you can control more than 1 creature, why relegate summoning to a "distraction" tool for arcanes?

the cooldown on summons is equal to the time the summon would last if it doesn't die first... seems fair in theory (since you only get one anyhow), but in practice it's a bit off.

why do we only have one? i always figured it had to do with performance, just like their stated reason for making multishot a boost instead of a stance (of course, recent changes to projectiles apparently open up the possibility of change - this is all mentioned in The Dog House).

ie. if you have a group full of casters, all summoning X monsters, the server is under additional stress, not to mention the trials and tribulations the AI has pathing around or aggroing onto these additional mobs.

of course, one of the druids main "things" is the ability to summon several monsters at will... and in keeping with that a change might be needed (that or they'll need feats that drastically improve summons).
i think there should always be some sort of hard cap on the number of summons allowed (performance reasons), but i don't see why it can't be larger than 1.

[Natalae]

Blame the gimps who use the summons to create a "lapse" in dmg from various mobs in game.

[Angelus_dead]

the cooldown on summons is equal to the time the summon would last if it doesn't die first... seems fair in theory (since you only get one anyhow), but in practice it's a bit off.

The problem is that the useful lifetime of a summon is almost completely unrelated to the duration. Summoned monsters are all so weak that the only way they don't die shortly is if they're not fighting anything (which means you had no reason to summon it yet anyhow). Basically every summon will die within 1 minute of entering a typical battle. With the low-level spells, you can just summon another soon, but the higher level spells lock you out for up to 8 minutes.

The central problem with DDO's summons is limitations in the programming. Their magic system doesn't allow spells of sufficient complexity to make summons minimally convenient. They cannot allow players to summon over and over and fill the instance with monsters, but they have no way to check if a character already has a summon up before letting him cast a new one.

Without that simple conditional, they're left at locking out new summons for the entire maximum duration of the previous one.

The best fix would be to improve the software so the summon spell icon can tell if your last summon is still alive. Since that change isn't within a reasonable amount of work, the next best is to just cap the duration of summons to a reasonable number like 3-5 minutes each.

[Rekker]

My problem is most of the time my summons bug out after 30 seconds and quit attacking anything...the fact that I have to wait that long to summon another because they created a bad AI is a double penalty.

[Westerner]

I think summoned monsters could do with a CR increase. The existing ones are very fragile compared with level-appropriate quests.

Something like CR = 2x arcane spell level. Still on the low side, but with buffs and clever tactics should suffice.

[TheGreatEye]

Reduce the cooldown timer, big-time. 5 minutes? Is there any real logic behind this that makes any sense whatsoever? In PnP you can control more than 1 creature, why relegate summoning to a "distraction" tool for arcanes?

Each level summons should work off a different cool-down timer, and Create Undead should have it's own timer as well. Reduce the timer drastically to 40 seconds.

Add enhancements to drastically increase the CR of the summoned monsters.

Have to agree that summons is gimped. Everything Asp said sounds reasonable.

[JFeenstra]

the fact that summons also no longer generate agro makes them twice as useless as before, unless of course you drop a summoned pet somewhere while you stay out of range, letting the summon kill the whole room of mobs without you taking a single point of damage

[GrayOldDruid]

There are a few things that have been bothering me regarding summons:

Every creature AI in the game that has spell casting seems to have Quicken, they NEVER get interupted, is that "Balanced" in any shape or form?

Oh, yes. This is a biggie for me. I should be able to interrupt - make them fail a concentration test - any caster, just like every mob or spell that hits me requires me to make a concentration check.

AI creatures (let's name the Healers in the Shroud for a specific one) that are on a set path, get tripped, stunned, held, whatever, and they continue their path, even though they are immobilized. Is this "Balanced"?

Another annoyance here. the AI, mobs, creatures, etc. Will 'skate' around when paralyzed, stoned, held, etc. Shouldn't they stand still and NOT move if paralyzed??

Summon spells on scrolls, well, a 5 minute timer seems rediculous. If they were nearly as powerful, "NEARLY", then a timer would not be as much of a pain, but honestly, they are not. Sure, I can buff my summoned creatures, if they either don't break or die within the first few seconds they are in. I understand the saves and all that they get, but their saves, the creatures that I summon, should have to make a save against "MY" abilities, not against a set #.

As a Ranger, me summoning a Lioness or Young Razor cat in the Shroud is useless. As a Sorcerer, summoning a Fiendblood Troll in the Vale is equally as useless. Even with stoneskin, resists, etc., They go down quick. A fiendblood troll should stand up to and take down a couple ogres at least... I agree that the existing summons should be improved greatly. There should also be some Enhancements or Feats to improve summoned creatures. There is a feat or spell in 3.5 that gives summoned creatures +2 to stats and saves, etc.

My comments in Red. Like the agro methods idea too, but I think they're doing something similar for Mod 7... or the recent fix.

[kruggar]

/agreed

i agree 100% with aspernor idea..

create an enhancement line that decrease the time and increase the CR of the mobs.. this can be easily implemented and will help a lot in creating the "summoner" caster..

i can see my cleric summonung his army and then starting a battle hehehe