Create Undead Timer

[Jefro]

Anyone who used the spell, knows full well they break control very fast, their control last less then a monster summoning I spell. Scrolls having a different timer help compensate for the spell's failings. They should increase the control time, since like alot of spells from pen and paper do not transfer well to DDO. Like symbol of death should be increased to reflect the increase that all creature in DDO were given extra hitpoints.

Anyone else give examples of spells that are not relfected well in the MMO environment and left unused.

[Ghoste]

Not to mention scrolls don't have cooldown timers in PnP. Not only does the spell not translate well, they're now taking away some of the strength that it does have in PnP.

It was working fine before. The problem wasn't with the timer, it was agro/AI problems that led to the other issues with this half baked fix we saw today.

[Nevthial]

Yes, they have ruined a perfectly good spell. It is now useless without casting ANOTHER spell to ensure control.

[Azoralq]

Why cast it anyway? Or any summon spell? The pet has a fraction of the hit points it needs to survive, and dies on one cleave/AoE spell anyway.

[Ghoste]

Why cast it anyway? Or any summon spell? The pet has a fraction of the hit points it needs to survive, and dies on one cleave/AoE spell anyway.

Mummy despair, curse, mummy rot...
With the indecisiveness of pets regarding whom to attack, they often manage to infect several targets with mummy rot before being killed. Start the encounter off with a charm, let the charmed guy take initial agro, send in a mummy or two...

Or put the mummy up on some ledge where they can't get to it and it will start throwing out curses at every monster that passes by.

They're plenty useful, it just requires a creative approach.

[Azoralq]

Again, why? you'll kill the enemy before the rot takes place, and the rest of the spells, you can do yourself...

[captain1z]

Why does the good stuff always happen when Im at work?


Anyways,


Efreeti summons do ok, they seem to last the longest for me.

I bought create undead scrolls when I was trying to solo von 2 on my sorc ( because I cant do a thing to the slimes myself)
I saw there were 3 options so I decided to summon the ghouls. It was like some kinda joke when I created 4 one HD ghouls who died seconds after they managed to get aggro. the only one that survived did so because he turned against me.

Earth eles do ok when you buff them, if they dont bug out.

hell hounds are ok at low levels

but if you can............ its better to just charm stuff. charmed mobs are way more survivable.


Why dont they use the same monster template for the summoned pets. Let them scale with your level..... so at 10th level summon monster 1 creates a CR 10 dog for 1 min.

Each monster has certain advantages but because they die so quicky it becomes useless

Dogs = trip
spiders = posion
hounds = fire
??????
earth ele = earth grab
troll = high dps and regens
efretti = magic

pretty useful abilities and worth the sp cost if they werent gunna die in 1-2 hits



a decision needs to be made in DDO, stick to the rules or deviate. I dont mind either way but the interaction of rules we chose to stick to with the rules we choose to stray away from doesnt seem to mesh well.

summon monster spell + PNP close < Enemy Mobs + way more powerful than PNP = minor and situationaly useful spell.

[Jefro]

Monster Summoing I - Dog: At low levels can draw aggro so the caster can get off a spell, they work good against a enemy spellcaster, because caster tries to move away from the dog so it can cast a spell.
Monster Summoning II- Scorpion: Its poison is weak, though its constant digging keeps a mob busy. Just like how a scorpion keeps us busy
Monster Summoning II- HellHound: I use items to summon this helpful dog in midlevels (sorrowdusk and explorer areas) and sometimes in higher levels, useful to make a hidden monster attack losing its surprise on you, and once you get aggro the dog constantly does a firebreath.
Monster Summoning IV- Spider: Last longer then hellhound, my cleric used bracers to summon the spider to grab aggro at doors back in the day.
Monster Summoning V- Earth Ele: Earthgrab is a powerful ability, and they are helpful in in the high levels after giving them a few buffs.
Monster Summoning VI- Troll: It has regen and has better time following you then eles and efferti, only used them when i pick up the wrong scrolls or doing lowbie and mid level quest for favor.
Monster Summoning VII Efferti: They hold their own and make a useful partner. I carry a few scrolls and sometimes the spell.
Monster Summoning VIII Bezekira: For a cleric what other level 8 spell worth having other then deathward?

[Angelus_dead]

Not to mention scrolls don't have cooldown timers in PnP. Not only does the spell not translate well, they're now taking away some of the strength that it does have in PnP.

Incorrect. In D&D, the casting of scrolls is always as slow or slower than the real spell from memory. It is senseless for DDO to allow any scroll to be faster than a real caster.

Note that the D&D rules on the time to read a scroll are difficult to understand, and many people think it says they all take one standard action. That is wrong.

[Ghoste]

Incorrect. In D&D, the casting of scrolls is always as slow or slower than the real spell from memory. It is senseless for DDO to allow any scroll to be faster than a real caster.

Note that the D&D rules on the time to read a scroll are difficult to understand, and many people think it says they all take one standard action. That is wrong.

You misunderstand. I was not refering to the casting time. Cooldown time is the time that expires after you have completed casting the spell until you can cast it again. In PnP you can begin casting another scroll on your next action, the timer they are putting on these scrolls is WAY longer.

Same should go for spells, but doesn't in DDO.

What you're talking about...fair enough, they could conceivably double or triple the casting time for scrolls to compensate for extra time reading, etc, but that's nowhere close to the difference they're putting in here. I'd have to log on to check the exact time, but I believe the cooldown on the spell is 5 minutes.

[Ghoste]

Not to mention scrolls don't have cooldown timers in PnP. Not only does the spell not translate well, they're now taking away some of the strength that it does have in PnP.

It was working fine before. The problem wasn't with the timer, it was agro/AI problems that led to the other issues with this half baked fix we saw today.

See that part in green?

For those who were not aware, that means the time between the completion of casting one spell (be it from scroll or memory, as one can conceivably take longer than the other) and when you begin casting it again. It has nothing to do with the time it takes to cast it.

The term for that would be "casting time", not something I was talking about.

[Vormaerin]

No, its supposed to reflect the time taken to get another scroll out of where ever you have it stuffed. But perhaps you are so organized you can find, unpack, unroll, and start reading another scroll instantly after finishing the first one without even needing a few seconds to look around and see the effect of your previous one... D&D doesn't have a formal cooldown type requirement on such things, but it does assume that time elapses between one scroll and the next. That's why casting a spell or using a scroll is a standard action, not a full round action. You have, in p&p, time to run 30 feet between the times you can use a scroll.

[Silou]

Well, being a hard core PnP buff myself I'dlike to add my comprehension on PnP scrolls to this mix. The rules clearly state that useing a scroll is a standard action (unless otherwise noted) that provokes and attack of opportunity. Also, to elaborate on spell casting from a wizard standpoint in PnP, the concept of memorizing spells is that you essentially cast majority of the spell during the memorization process and memorize the completion ward (somatic and verbal components) and apply the neccessary material components to effectively finish the spell casting. Scribing a scroll is described in a similar manner where you initially cast majority of the spell during memorization and then finish casting as you apply the completion wards to the scroll itself. Therefore, the spell becomes a scroll and you can cast it without prememorization.

The concept of having to rumage around in your pack for the scroll of course has no written rule. But that proccess is assumed to be used during the standard acion of casting it. Logically one could then surmise that casting a scroll is essentially faster than the memorized spell itself. A lot of gray area here, as with the majority of PnP D&D concepts. Done intentionally so that the DM and players have the flexabiity available to tweak and twist the generalized rules to their own unique desires for play (house rules). Wizards of the Coast, and before them TSR, wanted to make sure their players never felt trapped by their rules and went to great pains to ensure that if a rule or concept wasn't fun for the group they could change it.

The problem of courseis how to transition that into live action play. There's no way DDO would have ever had the numbers of layers it does if they had tried to do a turn based MMO. While us old PnP players would probably have loved it to a certain extent, the majority of the MMO players would have gotten extremely bored and quit.

I agree though that the cooldown times of certain scrolls and spells is ugainly.

[Ghoste]

No, its supposed to reflect the time taken to get another scroll out of where ever you have it stuffed. But perhaps you are so organized you can find, unpack, unroll, and start reading another scroll instantly after finishing the first one without even needing a few seconds to look around and see the effect of your previous one... D&D doesn't have a formal cooldown type requirement on such things, but it does assume that time elapses between one scroll and the next. That's why casting a spell or using a scroll is a standard action, not a full round action. You have, in p&p, time to run 30 feet between the times you can use a scroll.

Which doesn't take 5 minutes, unless you're Jabba.

And scroll cases for carrying multiple scrolls exist for those wizards who want to be more organized. Even without cases, there's nothing prohibiting wizards from finding multiple scrolls before casting the first.

Even without all that organization, 5 minutes is absurd.

[dameron]

No, its supposed to reflect the time taken to get another scroll out of where ever you have it stuffed. But perhaps you are so organized you can find, unpack, unroll, and start reading another scroll instantly after finishing the first one without even needing a few seconds to look around and see the effect of your previous one... D&D doesn't have a formal cooldown type requirement on such things, but it does assume that time elapses between one scroll and the next. That's why casting a spell or using a scroll is a standard action, not a full round action. You have, in p&p, time to run 30 feet between the times you can use a scroll.

You can have multiple castings of the spell on the same scroll, so that's not it.

[Vormaerin]

Which doesn't take 5 minutes, unless you're Jabba.

And scroll cases for carrying multiple scrolls exist for those wizards who want to be more organized. Even without cases, there's nothing prohibiting wizards from finding multiple scrolls before casting the first.

Even without all that organization, 5 minutes is absurd.

Its only that long because DDO artificially limits you to one summoned monster at a time. In p&p you can go ahead and summon a monster every round if you want.

If you are objecting to the limit on summoned monsters, that's fine. But it requires a completely different set of arguments than "it shouldn't take that long to get a scroll out."

[Jefro]

They removed the create undead scrolls as well
They need to reduced timer they put on this spell. They are just making it an expensive useless spell to join the ranks with the increasing amount of useless spells like symbol of death ect...

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Why cast it anyway? Or any summon spell? The pet has a fraction of the hit points it needs to survive, and dies on one cleave/AoE spell anyway.

Oooohhhh....so many reasons.
Less effective in a large group of other players....unless they all hold back maybe. But lots of reasons.

That Dog kicks butt in the Harbor. Especially when soloing.

All of them get agro off of you...at least a little.

Some angry WF guy says you can use them to move mobs out of your way and sneak by them.

That 8th lvl Lion is pretty nice actually.

They can find hidden mobs/slimes faster than most low spot chars can.....love em in Durks.

[Rameses]

I would hazard a guess that the timer was added because of the few that used the Create Undead for other nefarious reasons then the great examples posted by Ghoste previously.

I am, Rameses!

[Strakeln]

QwijyMart's Grease Pit Ghast Matches are no more.