Make barbarian rage more temporary

[honkuimushi]

I also argree that the always Raged thing is more of a factor of knowing the quest. The problem with removing rest shrines and the like is made more complicated by having Barbs, Casters and Clerics dependant on them. It wouldn't be good if they removed a couple of shrines to reign in Barbs and had the Clerics constantly running out of Mana.

I also agree that the Crit enhancement is the real reason this is an issue. If the multiplier had been increased rather than the range, that would have been better. But the Devs mentioned that that tech wasn't available and since people have built characters aroun this, I do not support removing it. However, I could see tweaking it. For one thing, cost. Right now, the costs are 2/4. I think increasing it to 4/6 or even 6/6 would be a good idea. The next thing is that the idea of limiting it to one line has a lot of merit. You could even go so far as to limit it to one weapon. By choosing Pierce to go with Rapiers, you are pretty much limiting yourself to rapiers and picks because of the limited number of good piercing weapons and they are currently no 2 handed piercing weapons. Going for slash gives you a lot of good weapons including 2 handed weapons and high crit range weapons like scimitars and falchions, but you don't have access to Puncturing. That strikes me as fairly balanced.

I remember when Barbarians were gimped and I don't care to return to those days. A lot of the things that are pointed to as overpowered are the only advantages a Barb has over a Fighter. I would prefer to focus on making Fighter levels more valuable but adding more feats and giving them a few more enhancements that ****ing people off by removing an enhancement that has become a mjor part of the game. Go ahead and limit it a bit, make it more expensive, but don't remove it.

[Zenako]

That the enhancement was created to affect Crit Range and not Crit Multiplier justs tells me that the testing was not robust enough. Someone probably looked at the raw numbers and saw that the expected DPS would be about the same for a Barbarian either way and chose to let the enhancement boost the range. The people doing that probably did not consider all the weapons and effects which trigger on CRITs, like Smiting, Banishing, Bursts, etc. Had they done so, and understood the game implications, I suspect that the Crit enhancements would have twinked the multiple. There is a Reason Keen and Improved Crit do not stack in the game, would make criticals too often and too important and hard to balance quests for all.

[Mike_Ivory]

It should have said more NEW FIGHTER FEATS.

Sorry, I will edit. Fighters need more exclusive feats. I definitly think that would be a good thing. And my fighter characters will love the devs for putting them in

Yes i misunderstood but i do agree with u more exclusive feats would be a great idea.

[Raithe]

Rolling a 20 to-hit doesn't mean your attack was any more accurate than if you had rolled an 6 if both rolls have the same effect (hit, crit, or miss).

In the context of the D&D game system, this is not true. The higher you roll on a d20 die, the more accurate the attack. If you roll a 20 and fail to confirm a crit, that just means your attack was good, just not quite good enough. Confirming the crit means you rolled high on a d20 twice, which equates to even greater accuracy. The randomness of the amount of damage inflicted upon varying degrees of accurate hits is built into the damage dice of weapons. Which brings us to this:

Improved crit range can quite easily be explained as increased odds that your hits contact better due to brute strength (or reasons i mentioned earlier).

Strength bonuses to damage and accuracy are already built into the system, as should be evident. You can't say that crit rage has anything to do with "hitting harder" because you could build a finesse barbarian14/rogue2 with extremely high dex and a base strength of 10, who crits more often than a fighter10/barbarian6 with a base strength of 24, and who can hit a strength of 46 with buffs. The fighter10/barb6 is definitely "hitting harder."

You have to call crit rage what it is... a ridiculous gimmick that should have never been introduced, and especially not for barbarians.

[Mhykke]

It all depends on how they do it.

If they make the 1st crit range add x1 multiplier to the weapon, and the 2nd crit rage add x2 multiplier to the weapon, then barbs would be doing more damage overall, but critting less of the time (which should solve the big crit range complainers, unless it really was just whining about barbs doing more damage.)

If they make it so it just adds some stupid seeker bonus, like +2 and +4, where you'd be doing 12 more damage on a crit w/ a x3 weapon w/ the 2nd level of crit rage, then I'll probably post enough on the forums to get myself banned.

We'll see.

[creithne]

I'll agree with Mhykke, I think (and have since it was implemented) that it should be a multiplier. If they change it to something like seeker, after the way it has been, I think they will be shooting themselves in the foot.

[Aspenor]

It all depends on how they do it.

If they make the 1st crit range add x1 multiplier to the weapon, and the 2nd crit rage add x2 multiplier to the weapon, then barbs would be doing more damage overall, but critting less of the time (which should solve the big crit range complainers, unless it really was just whining about barbs doing more damage.)

If they make it so it just adds some stupid seeker bonus, like +2 and +4, where you'd be doing 12 more damage on a crit w/ a x3 weapon w/ the 2nd level of crit rage, then I'll probably post enough on the forums to get myself banned.

We'll see.

I really only have issues with the "range" thing. I agree that changing it to a seeker effect would be shooting themselves in the foot.

[Gorgarr]

Dude if Barbs are SOOOOO fab Make one. IF not SHUT UP

[Laith]

In the context of the D&D game system, this is not true. The higher you roll on a d20 die, the more accurate the attack.

but why?

if i roll a 15 miss, why does that necessarily mean that my roll of 19 (also missing) is automatically more accurate? I outcome was the exact same, the only difference was a chance occurance that occured OUTSIDE of our fictional world.

A crit that does 10 damage hurts our characters just as much as a normal hit that does 10 damage. What of crits that actually do LESS damage than a normal hit could?

All i'm saying is that inside our fictional world: both swings missed, it's as simple as that.
Inside our fictional world, combat is supposed to be dynamic, with several variables changing constantly. Our characters aren't just standing there poking at each other.

Strength bonuses to damage and accuracy are already built into the system, as should be evident. You can't say that crit rage has anything to do with "hitting harder" because you could build a finesse barbarian14/rogue2 with extremely high dex and a base strength of 10, who crits more often than a fighter10/barbarian6 with a base strength of 24, and who can hit a strength of 46 with buffs. The fighter10/barb6 is definitely "hitting harder."

both barbarians are more apt to have their hits be criticals. that much is factual, and exactly what the enhancement equates to: nothing more.

if you're going to play under the assumption that a 19 that misses ("allllllmost got him") is different from a 6 that misses ("swing and a wiff"), than i can't touch you.

if you happen to think that the d20 roll shouldn't restrain how you explain the flow of combat, than my view on the subject works.

hits from a barb with imp crit rage are more likely to have extra effect. it's as simple as that in my view.

[Arjen]

/tinfoilhat

[Mike_Ivory]

/tinfoilhat

may i have one as well please?

[creithne]

hits that a barb with imp crit rage are more likely to have extra effect. it's as simple as that in my view.

Extra effect, like say....a higher multiplier?

[Oreg]

may i have one as well please?

I think I am the last that needs one. Ok someone light the candles, I'll turn out the lights.

[Mike_Ivory]

I think I am the last that needs one. Ok someone light the candles, I'll turn out the lights.

if i dont make it............ tell them my story!

[Laith]

Extra effect, like say....a higher multiplier?

i've stated earlier that i feel a higher multiplier would make MORE sense, and be better for game/class balance (also barbarians would still be favoring THF, so it fits the theme too).

i'm just arguing that the current implementation isn't completely without merit. of course, that point isn't as interesting, so it got buried in the text

[Byzantian]

Give them as many rages as you want that last 30secs each, thats what an enhancement boost lasts for.

fair is fair.

[Twerpp]

Dude if Barbs are SOOOOO fab Make one. IF not SHUT UP

Amen to that. I'm sick of hearing about how they are so overpowered. They arent. There's a reason I have two fighters they are simply better than barbs in PvP and PvE.

[Oreg]

if i dont make it............ tell them my story!

"you go, I go" (Backdraft, 1991)


Thanks. That made me laugh for the first time today.

[Strumpoo]

I don't think increasing the multiplier will fix the problem either...

I think most people complaining about the crit rage enhancement are those that live and die by the "kill count". They can't justify their character's contribution to the party unless that character's name is "in lights" on the kill count.

Increasing the multiplier won't help their dilemma. In fact, it may make it worse. What happens when mauls, greataxes, and SOS wielding barbs now suddenly crit for X5 or X6 on the criticals? Things die faster!

Here is the scenario:

Raged barb wades into battle, clicks Stunning Blow, then 1 shots his foe.

Rinse and repeat...

This eventually leads to another nerf as the "kill count" watchers whine again... So then crit range is nerfed again, along with stunning blow, since it is too overpowered as well.. Then barbs are back to being sub-par fighters and sidelined..

Again, we are at level 16 here. We are no longer green faced adventurers, these characters would have song sung about them in Stormreach! They should be powerful and decimating.

I will say it again, give Fighters New Feats to play with and specialize with, leave my hulk alone.. You wouldn't like him when he is angry..

[Oreg]

I don't think increasing the multiplier will fix the problem either...

I think most people complaining about the crit rage enhancement are those that live and die by the "kill count". They can't justify their character's contribution to the party unless that character's name is "in lights" on the kill count.

Increasing the multiplier won't help their dilemma. In fact, it may make it worse. What happens when mauls, greataxes, and SOS wielding barbs now suddenly crit for X5 or X6 on the criticals? Things die faster!

Here is the scenario:

Raged barb wades into battle, clicks Stunning Blow, then 1 shots his foe.

Rinse and repeat...

This eventually leads to another nerf as the "kill count" watchers whine again... So then crit range is nerfed again, along with stunning blow, since it is too overpowered as well.. Then barbs are back to being sub-par fighters and sidelined..

Again, we are at level 16 here. We are no longer green faced adventurers, these characters would have song sung about them in Stormreach! They should be powerful and decimating.

I will say it again, give Fighters New Feats to play with and specialize with, leave my hulk alone.. You wouldn't like him when he is angry..

Well Said.