Make barbarian rage more temporary

[paintedman]

This may come off as unpopular, but no matter.

The stance I'm taking here is that barbarian rage should be a temporary buff, however with the combination of rage durations, additional rages, and shrine population it seems like a barbarian can stay in permanant rage mode and that to me is just plain wrong. More so, it has cause a benchmark that is really unreachable by other fighter type classes, even the fighter class! Now I know that barbarians are supposed to be excellent at damage dealing, but I will not aggree that they are supposed to be the best at fighting.

Suggestions

Remove duration enhancements
Remove Additional rage enhancments
Increase the cool down time to use another rage

This will cause rages to be more precious, and remove the perma raged barbarian, causing the other classes to step up and take a more active roll in the adventures. We can get away from the barbarian with the cleric strapped to his back. Also get away from the quests that buy into that idea of portable shrine. I guess just really change the course that I think we are on.

Constructive thoughts?

-paint

[Dariuss]

i'm ok with that actually.... not that i want barbs to get hit with a nerf bat or anything, but i do agree that alot of barbs are staying raged for almost the entire duration of the quest.. and well.. that's not really what it's meant for

PS. i have a barb

edit: what if the rages time was decreased, but the rage power was increased? ie. you only get to rage half as long, but you do twice 1.5x the damage?

[Mhykke]

More so, it has cause a benchmark that is really unreachable by other fighter type classes, even the fighter class! Now I know that barbarians are supposed to be excellent at damage dealing, but I will not aggree that they are supposed to be the best at fighting.

-paint

It depends on what you classify as "fighting." If you define it as just dealing DPS, then yes. If you include defense into the equation, then no, they aren't better than the fighter.

My problem w/ the "nerf barbarian" movement is that it comes dangerously close to making barbs irrelevant, similar to what they were when the cap was 10. Barbs are pure damage dealers, but do they leave a pure DPS fighter in the dust? No. If you have 2 equally skilled players on 2 DPS builds, one a barb and one a fighter, the barb isn't going to embarrass the fighter, plain and simple. Will he outkill him? Probably. I believe the numbers were barbs hit an average of 7 points harder, and on crits w/ a x3 weapon, that'd be 21 (10% more of the time.) Meh, I say so what. Should we lower the DPS gap to 2 or 3 points per hit? Where is the cutoff point where you'd say to yourself "why build a barb?"

[Yuhjn]

For a LONG TIME barbarians were the red-headed stepchild of melee in DDO. They did less damage than a good fighter, and had crappy AC to boot.

In the old days barbarians had a hard time finding groups because everyone knew they were a cleric's mana sponge.

Now barbarians have taken their rightful place at the top of the DPS mountain, and that works just fine for me. (No I dont play a barbarian)

So no, /disagree. I dont agree with your barbarian envy nor your suggestion to nerf them.

But just wait till the new pali enhamcnets come out... a well built pali with smite evil is going to kick serious ass. At that point it's only the fighters who will suck

[Angelus_dead]

It depends on what you classify as "fighting." If you define it as just dealing DPS, then yes. If you include defense into the equation, then no, they aren't better than the fighter.

Incorrect. Barbarians have better defense than a fighter:
more DR
more hitpoints
more speed
more saves
more tripping/stunning
more balance

[Impaqt]

The only thing Out of Whack on barbarians is Critcal Rage.

[Yuhjn]

Incorrect. Barbarians have better defense than a fighter:
more DR
more hitpoints
more speed
more saves
more tripping/stunning
more balance

Sorry incorrect. Less saves and less tripping/stunning. This is due a combination of fighters getting more feats and fighter enhancments.

Not to mention a fighter can splash pali for even more saves, plus a host of other advantages to survivability.

[Hvymetal]

Sorry incorrect. Less saves and less tripping/stunning. This is due a combination of fighters getting more feats and fighter enhancments.

Not to mention a fighter can splash pali for even more saves, plus a host of other advantages to survivability.

Not really, a pure Barb will have higher saves while raging and will have higher trip and stun dc's due to higher str should they take stunning blow.....

And what other advantages to survivability are we talking here? AC?

[Muirtach]

The only thing Out of Whack on barbarians is Critcal Rage.

yep

[boldarblood]

See 1 of about 50 other topics on this in the last few months. Nothing new to read.



p.s. stop asking for nerfs, start asking for fix's to make other class's more viable. Nerfs are bad.

[Mike_Ivory]

The only thing Out of Whack on barbarians is Critcal Rage.

agreed perma raged the whole quest is kinda overpowered, but with the crictal rage stuff its just silly. Removing them would not be fair but putting some type of decreased rage time with these enhancements could work i.e. first one is 10% less duration of rage then the 2nd one is 20% more for a total of 30% less duration of rage with both enchantments. something along those lines.

[Turial]

The only thing Out of Whack on barbarians is Critcal Rage.

So true.

[Mhykke]

Incorrect. Barbarians have better defense than a fighter:
more DR
more hitpoints
more speed
more saves
more tripping/stunning
more balance

All debatable.

Balance, dex check to get back up. I would say fighters on average have higher dex's than barbs. Sure, barbs have the higher str mod to not get knocked over, but it's not like fighters are getting knocked over left and right. We're not talking 20 str fighters.

Tripping/stunning I would classify as offensive. Sure, you hit a trip or stun and you don't get damaged, but it's an attack with your weapon/fist/shield. Killing a mob also prevents it from damaging you, so using your argument, b/c barbs are better killers, their defense should automatically be considered better.

Saves, guess it depends on the fighter. Fort save barb is higher, but again, it's not like fighters have weak fort. saves. Reflex, w/o uncanny dodge or with? Will, sure, raged. But there's things that nullify that advantage, such as GH, which doesn't stack w/ rage. And again it all comes down to the build.

Speed. I'd say that's more offensive as well. Getting to mobs to be able to kill them. I guess it comes into play if you're getting the snot beat out of you and need to book it out of there, but I'd still characterize speed as offensive, b/c most barbs and fighters spend most of their time getting to mobs, not running from them, at least the good ones.

Hit points, probably barb. But fighters usually grab toughness b/c of their # of feats, where barbs usually don't bother, which closes the gap.

DR, sure, I'll give you that.

But you left out a pretty big one, AC. Now, I'm not going to pretend that AC matters on an elite shroud run. But there are places where AC does mitigate damage, and the fighter has the better chance, through feats, of being versatile enough to switch from AC to TWF or THF.


I think it all comes down to, for me anyway, that all these complaints about barbs being overpowered makes it seem as though a fighter isn't in the same league, when I don't find that to be the case. Is the barb the better killer? More often than not. But again, w/ 2 equally skilled players, it's not an embarrassment, which the complaints make it seem to be.

[Strumpoo]

People need to get off of the whole "my character can't do as muh damage as others, therefore they should be nerfed" kick.

Jeezus people, Barbs should do more damage than fighters. It is their nature. They also don't get the TONS of feats that fighters do to become well rounded killing machines. Man, I would kill to have all those feats on my barb. and be able to hit a high ac for more than 30 seconds at a time.

The crit rage enhancements aren't going away. The devs are adding MORE of them to the game! See: PALLY ENHANCEMENTS.

A well built fighter can still keep up well with a barb in terms of damage, you have cleave and great cleave... USE IT. You have greater weapons focuses, USE them! You also can achieve a nice high AC that will save you 1,000's in plat on potions! USE IT!

Quit calling for a nerf to others, just because you think the playing field should be exactly equal in terms of damage. It shouldn't be, and if it does go there the game would be boring.

What you should be calling for is MORE FEATS FOR FIGHTERS. That way you can specialize your fighter even more with all those feats you get.

Don't destroy my characters to make yourself feel better about yours.

Go and build a barb if you think they are soooo much better. Yes barbarians can rage pretty long now, big deal! We still need to pick our spots to rage.

Guess what? A fighter can be raged the whole quest too, just get some clickies or buy pots. I know it isn't a devastating as a true rage, but it shouln't be since you aren't a barb.

We are almost at EPIC levels here guys, my level 16 Barbarian had better be able to stay angry pretty darn long! And he should be able to wreak terrible harm upon his enemies!!

[Mike_Ivory]

What you should be calling for is MORE FEATS FOR FIGHTERS. T

holy **** how could they possibly get more? one every level instead of every 2 lol, or even 2 per every 2 level dear god no. u would have all the availbe fighter feats buy like level 12 lol

[Mhykke]

holy **** how could they possibly get more? one every level instead of every 2 lol, or even 2 per every 2 level dear god no. u would have all the availbe fighter feats buy like level 12 lol

Think he meant add in more feats that aren't in the game.

[Mike_Ivory]

Think he meant add in more feats that aren't in the game.

ahh that makes more sense, how bout monkey grip? lets turn this fourm in to a we want monkey grip fourm lol

[paintedman]

(barbarian bashing)

Once again, my stance is the perma rage, that is not in line with barbarians, not even in the rage description. I whole heartly agree that crit rage is here to stay, its just too cool! I will also make this statement, a raged barbarian is better at dealing damage and dealing with damage than any other melee class. Till the AC debacle is solved Fighters will be dimisihed. On the other side of the coin, a non raged barbarian "should" be not as good at fighting than a Fighter because of the feats. See the difference, raged and unraged. Lets get away from perma raged.

-paint

[Mike_Ivory]

(barbarian bashing)

a non raged barbarian
-paint

is there suck a thing? I figured they walk around the market place and such shopping for items raged lol

[Dirac]

The OP is exactly right. What is broken is being able to stay raged an entire adventure. Rage should be a temporary buff for a small, but crucial, fraction of an adventure. Being slightly inferior most of the time to the fighter/pally to be able to be far superior for short bursts is where the balance should be. This state of affairs should never have been allowed to happen.

However, saying something should not have been is very different than saying something should be changed. Changes of this nature affects hours/days/months of peoples' time and peoples' lives. I don't agree with nerfing a race/class/charater type for any reason unless the effect is truly game breaking, which this is not.

Let's leave rage as is and continue to work on the other classes. More types of feats for fighters is a great idea, as are new and original ideas for paladins.