Skill point retraining

[Rastamage]

I posted this in the update forum but was told it fit better here:

With the recent change to bardic music and the Perform skill I think the time is now for a way to redo skill point allocations. Every other aspect of character design can be updated except skill points and ability scores. It seems fair to me that if you can change feats you should be able to redo skill points as well.

I am currently playing a bard/wizard 1/10. I've enjoyed the benefits of my bard level immensley. Now my bardic music has been nerfed and there's nothing I can really do about it aside from taking another (unwanted) bard level or rerolling. The PH2 allows for retraining and DDO has implemented a system for sorcerer spells, feats, and enhancements. It seems fair, particularly with the new change to Perform that we should get a method to revamp our skill points. Thank you for your time.

[Emili]

I used to dislaike respec's in general... it does however save many people from possible reroll at or near cap... So I suppose it's fine in that particular aspect (what I dislike about it is it can be abused as people level up thier characters and fine tune at certian levels over and over before final build)... I do tend to agree though that If you're capable of respecing one aspect of a character... you should be capabale of respecing all aspects of the character... Skill points included. I see no reason for not adding a skill point respec interface as I do not see it taking very much developement resources to do so... mainly just some decent time to think it out in order to cover it correctly but the interface itself should not take too long as far as I see it. BTW... my bard's perform is 45.

[isldur]

A skill repec would be nice, how ever if you didn't put points into preform on your bard, well that's just silly.

[Dexxaan]

Dude! Where´d you get a PH2 for DDO!!!?

I´ll buy yours.

[Yuhjn]

Actually there is a technical reason to not allow skill point respec.

The use of int tomes to increase skill points per level... let me explain.

Unfortunatley when you use a tome the game does not record what level you were when you used it. Instead it simply records that you used it.

That means that, for example, you character doesnt use a tome until level 12, and then uses a +2 int tome. Well that int increase will give you more skill points per level, but only from level 12 (when you used the tome) onward.

If you then let that player respec his skill points the only way the game can allow that, since it doesnt know WHEN you used the tome, is to give you the benifit of the tome right from the beginning. That will give you a BUNCH more skill points over the levels 2-11 when you didnt benifit from the increased int.

Furthermore I dont really like the idea of feat respecs... but unfortunatley when you add new feats you pretty much have to let players change them out. So by that logic I would only support skill respecs if/when they add new skills to the game. This is also Turbine's position on the issue... they will not add skill respecs until they decide to add new skills to the game.

[ThrasherGT]

Actually there is a technical reason to not allow skill point respec.

The use of int tomes to increase skill points per level... let me explain.

Unfortunatley when you use a tome the game does not record what level you were when you used it. Instead it simply records that you used it.

That means that, for example, you character doesnt use a tome until level 12, and then uses a +2 int tome. Well that int increase will give you more skill points per level, but only from level 12 (when you used the tome) onward.

If you then let that player respec his skill points the only way the game can allow that, since it doesnt know WHEN you used the tome, is to give you the benifit of the tome right from the beginning. That will give you a BUNCH more skill points over the levels 2-11 when you didnt benifit from the increased int.

Furthermore I dont really like the idea of feat respecs... but unfortunatley when you add new feats you pretty much have to let players change them out. So by that logic I would only support skill respecs if/when they add new skills to the game. This is also Turbine's position on the issue... they will not add skill respecs until they decide to add new skills to the game.

BUT, if You just use the total of all RANKS earned and reassign the same number to different skills, it wouldn't matter when You ate any INT tomes, and takes care of problems with cross class skills, as well.

[Rastamage]

Actually there is a technical reason to not allow skill point respec.

The use of int tomes to increase skill points per level... let me explain.

Unfortunatley when you use a tome the game does not record what level you were when you used it. Instead it simply records that you used it.

That means that, for example, you character doesnt use a tome until level 12, and then uses a +2 int tome. Well that int increase will give you more skill points per level, but only from level 12 (when you used the tome) onward.

If you then let that player respec his skill points the only way the game can allow that, since it doesnt know WHEN you used the tome, is to give you the benifit of the tome right from the beginning. That will give you a BUNCH more skill points over the levels 2-11 when you didnt benifit from the increased int.

Furthermore I dont really like the idea of feat respecs... but unfortunatley when you add new feats you pretty much have to let players change them out. So by that logic I would only support skill respecs if/when they add new skills to the game. This is also Turbine's position on the issue... they will not add skill respecs until they decide to add new skills to the game.

First, I think ThrasherGT is right about the ranks issue so I think there's no need for me to respond to that point of your post. the part I'll address is that of not liking respecs. The fact of the matter is that since the release of PH2 for pnp respec has been an acceptable part of the game.

Think about it like this, in pnp you can respec and the only reason need be you just don't like the way the character developed. In DDO there are game mechanic changes that you couldn't possibly be aware of when you made your initial decisions. When I took my bard level at 1st for the skill points I maxxed Perform and then stopped putting points into it cross class as a mage because there was simply no in-game reason for me to do so. Now a bard skill of mine got the gimp treatment due to a game mechanic decision by Turbine.

Essentially Turbine is the DM here. I know when I DM'ed and have had DM when I'm the player it's usual to be considerate to the player/character. If there is a major change in the game, such as we have with the ranks in Peform affecting Fascinate, then I and every DM I've ever met would allow the character to "fix" the character. This is essentially why PH2 unveiled retraining in the first place. Since the game does allow for respeccing in other areas then I think it only fair that skills be given the same treatment. I have plenty of skill points I spent that I didn't really need like Balance that I sure as Hell would have put into Perform to keep my Fascinate useful. New characters that dip into bard have no problem with the issue. But anybody who dipped into bard before this rule change more likely than not just left Perform at 3 or 4 ranks.

A fix here would just be Turbine being player friendly. That's why we got feat and enhancement respecs in the first place, right? Has there been a reason for a skill respec until now? I honestly don't know because I left the game shortly after launch and only returned in the past month.

[honkuimushi]

I know you may not want to, but once the cap goes up you can add points to Perform when you level up, even if you take levels in Wizard. It wonn't be as efficient as taking them as a Bard, but you should be able to get your Perform skill up high enough to be useful, especially with an item. It may not be ideal, but you should be able to salvage the character.

[bobbryan2]

Actually there is a technical reason to not allow skill point respec.

The use of int tomes to increase skill points per level... let me explain.

Unfortunatley when you use a tome the game does not record what level you were when you used it. Instead it simply records that you used it.

That means that, for example, you character doesnt use a tome until level 12, and then uses a +2 int tome. Well that int increase will give you more skill points per level, but only from level 12 (when you used the tome) onward.

If you then let that player respec his skill points the only way the game can allow that, since it doesnt know WHEN you used the tome, is to give you the benifit of the tome right from the beginning. That will give you a BUNCH more skill points over the levels 2-11 when you didnt benifit from the increased int.

Furthermore I dont really like the idea of feat respecs... but unfortunatley when you add new feats you pretty much have to let players change them out. So by that logic I would only support skill respecs if/when they add new skills to the game. This is also Turbine's position on the issue... they will not add skill respecs until they decide to add new skills to the game.

That's a reason TO add a skill point respec, not a reason to deny one.

The INT tome situation, being what it is, creates an inbalance that requires INT tomes to be eaten at the lowest possible level in order to completely twink out a toon. Eating an INT tome at level 1 vs lvl 16 can be the difference of being able to keep up with UMD or concentration and not.

So Turbine puts us in a situation where we mail +2 int tomes down to our brand new characters in order to squeeze every last skill point out of them when no other tome requires us to do that.

The current situation crazily benefits super-twinking more than any other tome, and it's a problem. It doesn't matter in the end game whether you ate a +2 str tome at 5th or 15th. The person who ate it earlier got to use it longer, but in the end it's the same.

[CSFurious]

sorry, but you should have planned for perform

this was hinted at for a long time & i guess those dwarven bards with 8 chr are in the weeds now

[Auran82]

sorry, but you should have planned for perform

this was hinted at for a long time & i guess those dwarven bards with 8 chr are in the weeds now

Obviously everyone who plays the game reads the forums and then reads every post.

[Pwesiela]

I seem to remember the same sort of argument being made when they "changed" the listen skill as well. By change, of course, I mean implemented as it was supposed to be. Look, you rolled a bard, and didn't put points into the perform ability?!?!? It's really the ONLY class specific skill in game, and you DIDN'T take it?!?!? I'm sorry, but some things are fixed to be the way they were supposed to be.


/not signed due to the above and other reasons stated when this was brought up last time

[Arj]

/signed a hundred times

There are no good reasons NOT to allow skill respec.

[SableShadow]

/signed, though not for the OPs reasoning.

There've been several skill changes over the life of the game, and many times the advertised utility of a skill doesn't match its actual utility. Diplomacy, Listen, and Intimidate got some major changes. Tumble doesn't match up with the advertised utility. Spot, Search, and Disable Device (and perhaps Open Locks as well) change in their utility every Mod.

Put in a mechanism similar to the feat respec mechanism that lets you move a 2 skill ranks between one skill and another every three days, taking a shard to do so.

Pay 1 to 1 for class to class and cross-class to cross-class, pay 1 for 2 from cross-class to class, pay 2 for 1 from class to cross class. Keep the max capped per the users current level.

Seems pretty straightforward.

[Emili]

I seem to remember the same sort of argument being made when they "changed" the listen skill as well. By change, of course, I mean implemented as it was supposed to be. Look, you rolled a bard, and didn't put points into the perform ability?!?!? It's really the ONLY class specific skill in game, and you DIDN'T take it?!?!? I'm sorry, but some things are fixed to be the way they were supposed to be.


/not signed due to the above and other reasons stated when this was brought up last time

Do not get me wrong here... as I always knew they planned to fix perform - fact is my bard has max'd ranks... However in the game perform was such a waste of point for the longest time - two bloody years! - that it was common for most bard to just toss a few ranks into it... Fact is also... there are a many first rolled toons and even some seconded rerolled which have points in dead useless skills or lack enough points in some due to skills changing thier use... good examples are balance, tumble, jump and spot all have changed since beta... Balance became the get up from trip, Tumble became the damage reduction from falling - previous was jump, Jump was capped at 40 to keep people from jumping walls and barriers they used to and also see tumble... spot was always important to see mob - many melee did not know this - and many a rogue set it low as they all felt they knew were the traps were from repetition. In many respects skills in DDO have changed as significantly from initial release as spells and feats. While I have been advising every bard seeking advise on skills to place full ranks in perform for over two years... I can certainly understand why some did not... the point is though that it's not the only skill which changed and likewise comes down to this and just this... DDO switches the rule-set. They promise nothing is the way it's suppose to be in DnD - even many base feats are nothing like DnD base, Bloody heck most classes do not reflect thier base DnD counterparts - It's entirely thier own rule-set - nothing like DnD at all. Thus you're arguing about they fixed it how it's suppose to be lends little credit to the issues.

[Ringos]

I wouldn't mind SKill respect at all. That being said, when my friends and I were new to the game, long before I found the DDO forums, our Bards always maxed out Perform. At the time, we didn't know it didn't matter. Later, when we found out that it didn't matter, we figured that some day it would...so we still maxed out Perform. IMO (just my opinion mind you) it seemed like something that Turbine was going to get around to fixing. Like I said, this is all before I ever saw the message boards. It just seemed like something that made sense to do so we did it. I'm sure that there are many others that took the same course of action with Skill Points.

All that being said, I'm sure my newest Cleric will get hosed some time in the future when Heal becomes important, since she only had an 8 Int and has very little in that skill. I guess I'll have to chew on that when/if it comes...

BTW, how many people put points into Jump, thinking it would help with damage from falling (before we started getting FF items) because of that incorrect Tip? Grrr...

[Solmage]

I think I'd like to see skill respecs, not to unnerf bards, but simply to allow for the flexibility of adding new skills, or making existing skills actually useful without adversely affecting the player base. (As was the case when balance was made to well, help balance..)

Then again, we're slowly getting to the point were a full re-build option, maybe only usable once a year or something, should be considered. I'd love to see Module XX:The Rebirth

[Pwesiela]

*snip* good examples are balance, tumble, jump and spot all have changed since beta... Balance became the get up from trip, Tumble became the damage reduction from falling - previous was jump, Jump was capped at 40 to keep people from jumping walls and barriers they used to and also see tumble... spot was always important to see mob - many melee did not know this - and many a rogue set it low as they all felt they knew were the traps were from repetition. In many respects skills in DDO have changed as significantly from initial release as spells and feats. While I have been advising every bard seeking advise on skills to place full ranks in perform for over two years... I can certainly understand why some did not... *snip*

THANK YOU, I couldn't remember what the others were for some reason, it was such a long time ago.

p.s. I still don't like the change to tumble making you break sneak, but that's another thread...

[Emili]

I wouldn't mind SKill respect at all. That being said, when my friends and I were new to the game, long before I found the DDO forums, our Bards always maxed out Perform. At the time, we didn't know it didn't matter. Later, when we found out that it didn't matter, we figured that some day it would...so we still maxed out Perform. IMO (just my opinion mind you) it seemed like something that Turbine was going to get around to fixing. Like I said, this is all before I ever saw the message boards. It just seemed like something that made sense to do so we did it. I'm sure that there are many others that took the same course of action with Skill Points.

All that being said, I'm sure my newest Cleric will get hosed some time in the future when Heal becomes important, since she only had an 8 Int and has very little in that skill. I guess I'll have to chew on that when/if it comes...

BTW, how many people put points into Jump, thinking it would help with damage from falling (before we started getting FF items) because of that incorrect Tip? Grrr...

That tip was at one time correct... they changed both Jump to cap at 40 so people would not jump some obstacles and changed tumble as the skill to reduce falling damage (instead of Jump like it used to be) without updating the tip or even the compendium for the longest of times... should you do a search on amany skills on the forums you'll get comflicting information only because so many of them changed over time... so you have to dig and follow the conversations up to the current info to graps any light on some... the compendium is still completely off in amany respects to feats, spells and other things let alone skills.

[Ringos]

That tip was at one time correct... they changed both Jump to cap at 40 so people would not jump some obstacles and changed tumble as the skill to reduce falling damage (instead of Jump like it used to be) without updating the tip or even the compendium for the longest of times... should you do a search on amany skills on the forums you'll get comflicting information only because so many of them changed over time... so you have to dig and follow the conversations up to the current info to graps any light on some... the compendium is still completely off in amany respects to feats, spells and other things let alone skills.

I did not know that it was, infact, jump before. Maybe they should just do away with the Tips if they aren't keeping them current. I'd rather have no information (and have to seek out the correct scoop) than bad information from a source within the game itself. I've seen some fairly recent Jump discussions...heck, there was still a lot of confusion from some. I usually (now) look to the forums for the people that really know their sheet and trust in their assessments in a great number of areas.

Thanks!