Skill point retraining

[Rastamage]

I posted this in the update forum but was told it fit better here:

With the recent change to bardic music and the Perform skill I think the time is now for a way to redo skill point allocations. Every other aspect of character design can be updated except skill points and ability scores. It seems fair to me that if you can change feats you should be able to redo skill points as well.

I am currently playing a bard/wizard 1/10. I've enjoyed the benefits of my bard level immensley. Now my bardic music has been nerfed and there's nothing I can really do about it aside from taking another (unwanted) bard level or rerolling. The PH2 allows for retraining and DDO has implemented a system for sorcerer spells, feats, and enhancements. It seems fair, particularly with the new change to Perform that we should get a method to revamp our skill points. Thank you for your time.

[Emili]

I used to dislaike respec's in general... it does however save many people from possible reroll at or near cap... So I suppose it's fine in that particular aspect (what I dislike about it is it can be abused as people level up thier characters and fine tune at certian levels over and over before final build)... I do tend to agree though that If you're capable of respecing one aspect of a character... you should be capabale of respecing all aspects of the character... Skill points included. I see no reason for not adding a skill point respec interface as I do not see it taking very much developement resources to do so... mainly just some decent time to think it out in order to cover it correctly but the interface itself should not take too long as far as I see it. BTW... my bard's perform is 45.

[isldur]

A skill repec would be nice, how ever if you didn't put points into preform on your bard, well that's just silly.

[Dexxaan]

Dude! Where´d you get a PH2 for DDO!!!?

I´ll buy yours.

[Yuhjn]

Actually there is a technical reason to not allow skill point respec.

The use of int tomes to increase skill points per level... let me explain.

Unfortunatley when you use a tome the game does not record what level you were when you used it. Instead it simply records that you used it.

That means that, for example, you character doesnt use a tome until level 12, and then uses a +2 int tome. Well that int increase will give you more skill points per level, but only from level 12 (when you used the tome) onward.

If you then let that player respec his skill points the only way the game can allow that, since it doesnt know WHEN you used the tome, is to give you the benifit of the tome right from the beginning. That will give you a BUNCH more skill points over the levels 2-11 when you didnt benifit from the increased int.

Furthermore I dont really like the idea of feat respecs... but unfortunatley when you add new feats you pretty much have to let players change them out. So by that logic I would only support skill respecs if/when they add new skills to the game. This is also Turbine's position on the issue... they will not add skill respecs until they decide to add new skills to the game.

[ThrasherGT]

Actually there is a technical reason to not allow skill point respec.

The use of int tomes to increase skill points per level... let me explain.

Unfortunatley when you use a tome the game does not record what level you were when you used it. Instead it simply records that you used it.

That means that, for example, you character doesnt use a tome until level 12, and then uses a +2 int tome. Well that int increase will give you more skill points per level, but only from level 12 (when you used the tome) onward.

If you then let that player respec his skill points the only way the game can allow that, since it doesnt know WHEN you used the tome, is to give you the benifit of the tome right from the beginning. That will give you a BUNCH more skill points over the levels 2-11 when you didnt benifit from the increased int.

Furthermore I dont really like the idea of feat respecs... but unfortunatley when you add new feats you pretty much have to let players change them out. So by that logic I would only support skill respecs if/when they add new skills to the game. This is also Turbine's position on the issue... they will not add skill respecs until they decide to add new skills to the game.

BUT, if You just use the total of all RANKS earned and reassign the same number to different skills, it wouldn't matter when You ate any INT tomes, and takes care of problems with cross class skills, as well.

[honkuimushi]

I know you may not want to, but once the cap goes up you can add points to Perform when you level up, even if you take levels in Wizard. It wonn't be as efficient as taking them as a Bard, but you should be able to get your Perform skill up high enough to be useful, especially with an item. It may not be ideal, but you should be able to salvage the character.

[rawfocat]

BUT, if You just use the total of all RANKS earned and reassign the same number to different skills, it wouldn't matter when You ate any INT tomes, and takes care of problems with cross class skills, as well.

This method would work for a pure class character, but for a multi-class it would be an issue.

Take a 8 ftr / 8 cleric alternating each class (example 1 ftr then 1 clrthen 1 ftr ....) who ate an INT tome at level 7. In the skill respect, which skills are cross class and which are class skills.

[Zenako]

This method would work for a pure class character, but for a multi-class it would be an issue.

Take a 8 ftr / 8 cleric alternating each class (example 1 ftr then 1 clrthen 1 ftr ....) who ate an INT tome at level 7. In the skill respect, which skills are cross class and which are class skills.

Bingo, I suspect that this a large part of why we have not seen any hints of anything like a skill respect coming along. Tomes are one thing, but skills and cross class skills are another as well. I suspect that if their database had a viable archive/history for each character, instead of a static snapshot of its latest state, then something would be more possible.

Now IF they decided to make things like INT Tomes retroactive with respect to skill points, then things become a bit easier to manage. To keep some things more game balanced then they might also want to introduce ML on tomes as well then. Perhaps lvl 4 for +1 tomes, Lvl 8 for +2 and lvl 12 for +3.

[Rastamage]

Actually there is a technical reason to not allow skill point respec.

The use of int tomes to increase skill points per level... let me explain.

Unfortunatley when you use a tome the game does not record what level you were when you used it. Instead it simply records that you used it.

That means that, for example, you character doesnt use a tome until level 12, and then uses a +2 int tome. Well that int increase will give you more skill points per level, but only from level 12 (when you used the tome) onward.

If you then let that player respec his skill points the only way the game can allow that, since it doesnt know WHEN you used the tome, is to give you the benifit of the tome right from the beginning. That will give you a BUNCH more skill points over the levels 2-11 when you didnt benifit from the increased int.

Furthermore I dont really like the idea of feat respecs... but unfortunatley when you add new feats you pretty much have to let players change them out. So by that logic I would only support skill respecs if/when they add new skills to the game. This is also Turbine's position on the issue... they will not add skill respecs until they decide to add new skills to the game.

First, I think ThrasherGT is right about the ranks issue so I think there's no need for me to respond to that point of your post. the part I'll address is that of not liking respecs. The fact of the matter is that since the release of PH2 for pnp respec has been an acceptable part of the game.

Think about it like this, in pnp you can respec and the only reason need be you just don't like the way the character developed. In DDO there are game mechanic changes that you couldn't possibly be aware of when you made your initial decisions. When I took my bard level at 1st for the skill points I maxxed Perform and then stopped putting points into it cross class as a mage because there was simply no in-game reason for me to do so. Now a bard skill of mine got the gimp treatment due to a game mechanic decision by Turbine.

Essentially Turbine is the DM here. I know when I DM'ed and have had DM when I'm the player it's usual to be considerate to the player/character. If there is a major change in the game, such as we have with the ranks in Peform affecting Fascinate, then I and every DM I've ever met would allow the character to "fix" the character. This is essentially why PH2 unveiled retraining in the first place. Since the game does allow for respeccing in other areas then I think it only fair that skills be given the same treatment. I have plenty of skill points I spent that I didn't really need like Balance that I sure as Hell would have put into Perform to keep my Fascinate useful. New characters that dip into bard have no problem with the issue. But anybody who dipped into bard before this rule change more likely than not just left Perform at 3 or 4 ranks.

A fix here would just be Turbine being player friendly. That's why we got feat and enhancement respecs in the first place, right? Has there been a reason for a skill respec until now? I honestly don't know because I left the game shortly after launch and only returned in the past month.

[bobbryan2]

Actually there is a technical reason to not allow skill point respec.

The use of int tomes to increase skill points per level... let me explain.

Unfortunatley when you use a tome the game does not record what level you were when you used it. Instead it simply records that you used it.

That means that, for example, you character doesnt use a tome until level 12, and then uses a +2 int tome. Well that int increase will give you more skill points per level, but only from level 12 (when you used the tome) onward.

If you then let that player respec his skill points the only way the game can allow that, since it doesnt know WHEN you used the tome, is to give you the benifit of the tome right from the beginning. That will give you a BUNCH more skill points over the levels 2-11 when you didnt benifit from the increased int.

Furthermore I dont really like the idea of feat respecs... but unfortunatley when you add new feats you pretty much have to let players change them out. So by that logic I would only support skill respecs if/when they add new skills to the game. This is also Turbine's position on the issue... they will not add skill respecs until they decide to add new skills to the game.

That's a reason TO add a skill point respec, not a reason to deny one.

The INT tome situation, being what it is, creates an inbalance that requires INT tomes to be eaten at the lowest possible level in order to completely twink out a toon. Eating an INT tome at level 1 vs lvl 16 can be the difference of being able to keep up with UMD or concentration and not.

So Turbine puts us in a situation where we mail +2 int tomes down to our brand new characters in order to squeeze every last skill point out of them when no other tome requires us to do that.

The current situation crazily benefits super-twinking more than any other tome, and it's a problem. It doesn't matter in the end game whether you ate a +2 str tome at 5th or 15th. The person who ate it earlier got to use it longer, but in the end it's the same.

[CSFurious]

sorry, but you should have planned for perform

this was hinted at for a long time & i guess those dwarven bards with 8 chr are in the weeds now

[Auran82]

sorry, but you should have planned for perform

this was hinted at for a long time & i guess those dwarven bards with 8 chr are in the weeds now

Obviously everyone who plays the game reads the forums and then reads every post.

[rimble]

Actually there is a technical reason to not allow skill point respec.

The use of int tomes to increase skill points per level... let me explain.

It's not worth obsessing over. Let them have their +2 Int from level one. Then the effects of that tome would be fully retroactive just like every other tome. It's a good thing.

[Reisz]

Actually there is a technical reason to not allow skill point respec.

The use of int tomes to increase skill points per level... let me explain.

Unfortunatley when you use a tome the game does not record what level you were when you used it. Instead it simply records that you used it.

That means that, for example, you character doesnt use a tome until level 12, and then uses a +2 int tome. Well that int increase will give you more skill points per level, but only from level 12 (when you used the tome) onward.

If you then let that player respec his skill points the only way the game can allow that, since it doesnt know WHEN you used the tome, is to give you the benifit of the tome right from the beginning. That will give you a BUNCH more skill points over the levels 2-11 when you didnt benifit from the increased int.

Furthermore I dont really like the idea of feat respecs... but unfortunatley when you add new feats you pretty much have to let players change them out. So by that logic I would only support skill respecs if/when they add new skills to the game. This is also Turbine's position on the issue... they will not add skill respecs until they decide to add new skills to the game.

The game records when you take feats, they record how many skillpoints you have, what you spent them on, and at what level. They have drastically changed skills like perform, intimidate, diplomancy, bluff, etc... greatly affecting their importance or usefulness. They are essentially 'new' skills.

[SableShadow]

/signed, though not for the OPs reasoning.

There've been several skill changes over the life of the game, and many times the advertised utility of a skill doesn't match its actual utility. Diplomacy, Listen, and Intimidate got some major changes. Tumble doesn't match up with the advertised utility. Spot, Search, and Disable Device (and perhaps Open Locks as well) change in their utility every Mod.

Put in a mechanism similar to the feat respec mechanism that lets you move a 2 skill ranks between one skill and another every three days, taking a shard to do so.

Pay 1 to 1 for class to class and cross-class to cross-class, pay 1 for 2 from cross-class to class, pay 2 for 1 from class to cross class. Keep the max capped per the users current level.

Seems pretty straightforward.

[oronisi]

I posted this in the update forum but was told it fit better here:

With the recent change to bardic music and the Perform skill I think the time is now for a way to redo skill point allocations. Every other aspect of character design can be updated except skill points and ability scores. It seems fair to me that if you can change feats you should be able to redo skill points as well.

I am currently playing a bard/wizard 1/10. I've enjoyed the benefits of my bard level immensley. Now my bardic music has been nerfed and there's nothing I can really do about it aside from taking another (unwanted) bard level or rerolling. The PH2 allows for retraining and DDO has implemented a system for sorcerer spells, feats, and enhancements. It seems fair, particularly with the new change to Perform that we should get a method to revamp our skill points. Thank you for your time.

How is it now time to update skill points, and not when they messed with balance, or trap DCs, or capped jump (I think), or adjusted tumble, or changed wand DCs (It's been so long but I think they did jack them up early on), or made bluff useless, or are now changing how intimidate works, or scaled damage so high concentration didn't matter, etc etc?

I think if a skill respec was needed, it should have been done a long long time ago. They said no then because it was too hard, and I'm guessing they will say no again, because coding didn't become easier overnight and putting performance in the same boat as all the other skills doesn't really change things.

[Reisz]

How is it now time to update skill points, and not when they messed with balance, or trap DCs, or capped jump (I think), or adjusted tumble,

Return on investment. Turbine needs to prioritize work. All of the previous modifications made x number of people unhappy. These new modifications will make y number of people unhappy. When x+y = too many unhappy people, Turbine needs to do something.

My guess is that we are not there yet. But if more skill tweak happen and more complaints arise from the player base. They will take notice.