AC vs DR vs Hitpoints

[Kraegor]

Hey guys,

I mostly play spellcasters, thought I would give a good go at the melee side.

Now, let me ask a few simple questions. Keep in mind, I actually want to do damage (not be an dwarf hiding behind a tower shield doing 10 points of damage a plink with his axe).

So with that in mind, what ultimately is better? Having a high AC? a High DR or just flatout Hitpoints?

Basically this would be a 2-handed fighter, so huge AC is out the window, but is it worth to try to get it to 40+?

What is the threshold AC that you need at higher levels to not get insta killed? is it 40? 45? 50?

Would DR help? or is it mainly spells that kill you that high? or should I just forsake it all, and go pure CON and STR and just be hugely beefy hitpoints?

This game is hard to find a balance, but hey.. My question is, if you have a low ac because you are a 2handed fighter, should you go ahead and forsake dex, go for heavy fortification items or armor?

And no I am not looking for an end all be end all build, just a build that has high survivability and won't be gimped. I am willing to take a few levels in other classes.

Any comments?

[Yaga_Nub]

.... (not be an dwarf hiding behind a tower shield doing 10 points of damage a plink with his axe).....

I think a few dwarven fighters will take offense to that!

[Kraegor]

Well you know what I mean. I don't want to be a dex monkey that only hits for 1d10+5 magical with a 10 strength. I want solid hitting power with a 2 hander, and high strength, but just need to know what should my defense be, AC or Hitpoints? And if AC is unrealistic for me, then I might as well go hitpoints.

[Angelus_dead]

So with that in mind, what ultimately is better? Having a high AC? a High DR or just flatout Hitpoints?

At low level AC can help, but at high level you want max DR and moderately high hitpoints.

Note that you get that simply by being a barbarian and spending 6 AP for DR and 6 or 12 AP for constitution. There is no further defensive investment needed. (You don't even need to take a particularly high con at creation)

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Yer gonna get a whole plethora of answers to this question.

Basically yer AC matters naught, at least at higher levels...you wont be able to get it high enough not using a shield and
being raged brings it down more. AC needs to be in the 50+ endgame for it to make a difference, any barbarian that can
reach this isn't raging and is using a shield...in other words needs to reroll a fighter.

DR, DR is very good. Some take the clickie enhancement, some like to have as much as possible. Personally I dont use
the clickie DR, I take what Barbarians get as they level.

HP is basically the same as DR, I take what I get while levelling. I dont take toughness and Ive 451 standing, unraged HP's with
an improved false life ring. That goes up to close to 570 when fully raged. Plenty.

The main thing with barbarians, in my opinion, is damage. So anything that helps with that is what you should focus on.

[BattleCircle]

But..... I think 2 levels of fighter is what you want, that will give you access to a couple feats you wouldn't normally get as a barb, and grant heavy armor proficiency. Beyond that its your ballgame, you could raise strength until it became too costly, Con to atleast 14, and then finish out with dex. Problem with this is you are going to be chasing monsters all the time, unless you have a group that uses bottlenecks and doorways to their best advantage all the time. You could also go the intimitank rout. That would save chasing....

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think the popular opinion is the best defense is a good offense.

On the defense side AC looses effectiveness as you increase in lvl.
DR is almost impossible in this game to get very high at all.....and again looses effectiveness fast.
HP are a Brbs str......very easy to get super high HP on most Brbs.

Personally, I'm a fan of saves and resists (and evasion) and using tactics to minimise the damage you take.

But a high Str raging brb with a decent AC, a little DR, and a ton of HP can do a lot of damage for a long time, and for the most part worry about healing later.......at least until the holds and flamestrikes start coming down.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

I hate participating in these threads...so much horrible advice...

[Reisz]

I would like to point out that Barbarians actually need more strategy to play (or play well) than most people think. If you run in, grab agro and lose half your HP (that is more HP than most have to begin with), the clerics/healers may get a little fussy. Or you will be sucking down a lot of potions.

Rogues run into the same agro issue, only they have learned how to deal with it out of necessity. Barbarians just compensate with huge HP. The fact is Barbarians don't need AC, they can just 'borrow' it from the real tank.

Play smart
Focus on DPS
Have Fun

[Grenfell]

I'm a huge fan of Fearsome armor on Barbarians. Let your low AC actually work to your advantage.

/gren

[Tanka]

I'm a huge fan of Fearsome armor on Barbarians. Let your low AC actually work to your advantage.

/gren

Fearsome on a Barb rocks. You just gotta know to stop chasing the blasted feared creature so it will stop running, and then you can swing around behind it to beat on it.

Most people don't get that part.

[boldarblood]

Hey guys,

I mostly play spellcasters, thought I would give a good go at the melee side.

Now, let me ask a few simple questions. Keep in mind, I actually want to do damage (not be an dwarf hiding behind a tower shield doing 10 points of damage a plink with his axe).

So with that in mind, what ultimately is better? Having a high AC? a High DR or just flatout Hitpoints?

Basically this would be a 2-handed fighter, so huge AC is out the window, but is it worth to try to get it to 40+?

What is the threshold AC that you need at higher levels to not get insta killed? is it 40? 45? 50?

Would DR help? or is it mainly spells that kill you that high? or should I just forsake it all, and go pure CON and STR and just be hugely beefy hitpoints?

This game is hard to find a balance, but hey.. My question is, if you have a low ac because you are a 2handed fighter, should you go ahead and forsake dex, go for heavy fortification items or armor?

And no I am not looking for an end all be end all build, just a build that has high survivability and won't be gimped. I am willing to take a few levels in other classes.

Any comments?

Your AC matters not at all on your Barb, you will never reach high enough AC while still keeping your barb abilities going strong. Your better off as a Fighter for the AC.

I say shoot for ~400 hitpoints before rage, and that can be reached without toughness on most barbarians. To much hitpoints, where you waste feats/enhancments to reach rediculous numbers are not worth it. I am a firm believer in keeping your saves as high as possible (wearing highest resistance items, wisdom items, etc, also being a barb at 14th level gives you +4 will save while raged).

If you are going 2 Handed, Great Axes/Mauls are the 2 best, greatswords and falchions are not nearly as good (for dps). Max out your 2 Handed Fighting Feats, and make sure to have power attack and improved critical slashing. 2 weapon fighting switch's some things around.

[Stonebread]

Please remember that everyone's comments about AC not mattering only applies to high levels. And to get to high levels, you have to make it through the low to mid levels.

At low to mid levels, AC is king. My low level barb can stand in a mob of hostiles and pull levers. This is important if you are trying to solo through quests and can't be bothered with the time it takes to kill things. (Blasphemy I know! It's that one harbor quest where you can't kill the Prophets in particular, some parts of the Catacombs series and a few others)

So design the permanent parts of your character for high levels (abilities, skills), but adjust the rest of it based on your current level. For example, if you were to go WF, start with Adamantine Body feat and swap it out later. Wear some Mithral Full plate until you think Fearsome robes will actually do more good than harm. (I'd rather kill or ignore kobolds than fear them. Ogres are another matter.)

On your way up, don't be afraid wear armor and pull out the occasional *gasp* shield. It's ok to let the Fighter and Palladins have a few kills if it makes the Cleric's job easier.

[Averroes]

Basically yer AC matters naught, at least at higher levels...you wont be able to get it high enough not using a shield and
being raged brings it down more. AC needs to be in the 50+ endgame for it to make a difference, any barbarian that can
reach this isn't raging and is using a shield...in other words needs to reroll a fighter.

10 base
13 mfp
5 dex (2 dwarven AM)
5 deflection
3/4 natural
3 dodge (chattering ring)
=39/40
4 shield clicky/titan cookie
6 uncanny dodge
-2 rage
=47/48
2/1 ranger
4 pally
2 cleric (recitation)
=55
4 bard
=59
(5 madstone shield)
=64

...I wore robes on my barb for a long, long time... But when my fighter took rogue levels and the barb inherited his armor, and already had a chattering ring, I was forced to re-evaluate things. Although I agree that DR is typically more important than AC (and fearsome is nice), AC shouldn't be neglected -- it's too powerful to be able to get buffed to an AC that's always relevant while still doing your customary amount of damage. Low 50s isn't top-tier, certainly, and you can only do it for 2 minutes per shrine, but a barb can do a lot in two minutes...

[Beherit_Baphomar]

So yer barbarian with that AC is raging once, not including Madstone and is using a shield.

[Averroes]

So yer barbarian with that AC is raging once, not including Madstone and is using a shield.

Madstone is included (notice where it says 3/4 natural? The 4 is madstone), and a shield was tacked on at the end to show AC potential. That should be fairly apparent... If I had remembered to include haste that'd be 60 without a shield.

And if I care about AC at any given moment, the rage pot or spell is counterproductive -- +1 to-hit and damage and -2 AC? That's just a bad trade. Double-raging is for those times that I only care about dealing damage. Granted that's most of the time, but it'd be silly to include double-rage in a breakdown like this.

[BlackSteel]

i find the dr boost to be very helpful. helps lessen the burden on hard hitting names, or make you virtually invincible to physical damage while in the middle of a pack of trash. if you're a wf you also get the added bonus of the defiance or titan docent (20 dr on hit/ 30 dr clickie) personally i like to use the boost until the docent kicks in.

more hp is always good, but i wouldnt take it at the expense of dps

ac i cant comment on since i've never had a high ac toon, atleast not one at cap. I can say tho that having a pitifully low ac can be handy, fearsome is a great debuffer on mobs, and certain gaurd effects work quite well also. Bramble casters do nature damage which nothing stops, and consort bracers will give you 30 hp on a regular basis, especially when you get hit 95% of the time. (but if you're using high DR those hits dont hurt, whats being ping'ed for 1-4 damage when you have a 25% chance of getting 30 hp?)

saves are very important, the biggest thing i fear on my melee is spell damage, being hit with lit, dbf, or searing light really really hurts. granted that last one doesnt have a save, but taking full damage on anything with a reflex save is scary. if I had the motivation to reroll my barb i'd try for a useful reflex save, and possibly even take 2 rogue for evasion. in my opinion, dwarven barbs get a huge advantage in the spell resistance line, its quite a big bump.

[transtemporal]

OK, at high/endgame levels AC may not be so useful but for the love of god, don't underestimate the value of a good AC at low/mid levels. I've met so many mana-sponges recently who have parroted back what they've heard on the boards and taken it as gospel for all levels of play, and it drives me nuts.

For melee defense with my barb, I'm going AC (at low-mid levels), Improved DR I,II/DR BoostI,II,III,IV, Light/Mod/Heavy Fortification, HP in that order of priority. And also I'm picking up Human Improved Recovery II and I'll scrounge, beg or steal any blurs or displacements I can get.

For nuking-spell defense, I can see I'm going to be picking up a few greater resist items. Lol. For willsave-spell defense, I'm picking up two levels of Willpower II. At 14 I'll have a will save of 18 against enchantments and 14 against everything else when raging, and 10 when not raging. Not great but its something and doesn't include buffs from GH etc.

As you can see, my barb is going to be more defensively minded than most barbs, because I want to have options other than straight DPS. Thats come at the cost of absolutely maxing out my offense and HP. Time will tell if its a good idea or not. Also, I hate the idea of being a mana-blackhole.

[FluffyCalico]

HP is basically the same as DR, I take what I get while levelling. I dont take toughness and Ive 451 standing, unraged HP's with
an improved false life ring. That goes up to close to 570 when fully raged. Plenty.
.

They have nothing at all to do with each other. DR prevents HP loss and prevents you needing healing. HP allows you to live through more HP loss but still requires healing to undo. If you are confused on this pretty much any cleric can explain the difference between HP and DR to you.

[Solmage]

AC does not matter because you're not the poor shmuck who has to pay 50k plat in scrolls to keep you alive. And yet there are so few clerics around compared to all other classes. Weird huh!

My baby ranger (lvl 13) can get a 49 AC dual wielding, self buffed, and it makes a huge difference. But he'll switch out to sword and board and intimidate when running with mana sponges, to save the cleric mana. The usual result is the difference between a run in which the cleric has mana to spare, or one in which he spent 10-15 scrolls.