Paladin AC Challenge Build (can you defeat him?)

[Slayer918]

Thanks for the breakdowns on those. I do like the 12/4 halfling option, that might actualy be a really stellar build all around. But for my challenge I'm not sure it can come out on top overall since its shy on AC, probably saves, HP, and a tiny bit on casting?. But likely a somewhat stronger combatant due to the 2 extra feats and halfling attack bonus.

It will be 1 point shy of AC

Saves I think it would be just about even... regular charisma and halfling luck on will and possibly reflex saves evens out dwarven spell defense, and you dont need to put nearly as many resources into dex.

HP will be lower maybe 350-375ish if I were to gestimate (though after playing my dwarven paly/fighter w/ 316 for a while I dont really feel the need for too many more)

Casting you will lose quite a bit of sp (my paladin sits at 396 sp I think which is enough for resists/divine favor/virtue) but you wont be able to cast heal spells, though they break CE so are inconvenient anyways except for between fights when wands are just as good.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Greensteel longsword is base 1d10 damage
your BAB will be 31/31/36/41/41 seriously you need to use a calculator.
672SP.... are you sure?

With this build it will be run in, intimidate, shield block. (Unless you think an acidburst longsword is really going to give any meaningful dps) So I would suggest dropping mental toughness and taking the shield mastery feat instead.

I am at work so I will have a closer look at the build later tonight.

[sigtrent]

Greensteel longsword is base 1d10 damage
your BAB will be 31/31/36/41/41 seriously you need to use a calculator. .

Thanks The problem is I'm always making adjustmetns so there's lots of room to make a mistake. I appreciate the help though.

672SP.... are you sure?

It is greatly inflated due to the greensteel goggles having wizardry VI and extra SP on top of that... although I'm not a greensteel expert so I may have gotten it a bit wrong, I just used the DDO Wiki to try and sus it out. Haven't made them myself. I think I might be over by 50pts now that I think about it... I'll adjust down a tad.

With this build it will be run in, intimidate, shield block. (Unless you think an acidburst longsword is really going to give any meaningful dps) So I would suggest dropping mental toughness and taking the shield mastery feat instead.

Well, you probably don't actualy need to block much if you could actualy get all that gear put together so you might as well be whittling away on stuff. My cleric does about this much damage in melee, probably a bit less due to a weaker weapon and it's worth doing even if you arn't racking up the kills. Also the earthgrab is a killer if it works as advertised (Ive no idea how often it procs though.)

[ChildrenofBodom]

Ew, what is the DPS on this guy? 14 starting str? Does he swing a toothpick?

[sigtrent]

Ew, what is the DPS on this guy? 14 starting str? Does he swing a toothpick?

Well, its listed for comparison. It's not especialy great, that's for sure. But that isn't really the goal here. Indeed if anything it illustrates my primary point which is that paladin is primarly a defensive class, indeed the most defensive class in the game.

I'm not promoting this as an especialy desirable build, merely a challenge for others to demonstrate how any other class can achieve superior all around defenses as I often see people claim in paladin debate threads.

[Xyfiel]

Here is what I get, shroud items may be off. I have not read all the pages of posts on shroud items.
My monk build rough draft #2, added 1 Fighter for intimidate and boost. I personally would go pure and duel wield vorpal kamas. You would lose 9ac, 3reflex and 1will save.
Challenge 1 complete, 3 is iffy, AC and saves better, but hps isn't and defense is high but in other areas.


Halfling Monk15/Fighter1 LN
{20}10str +6item+3tome+1litany
{36}17dex +2enh+3weapon+6item+3tome+1litany+4levels
{24}14con +6item+3tome+1litany
{14}12int +2tome at creation
{30}16wis +3enh+1weapon+6item+3tome+1litany
8cha
Monks should get wis enh, if it is dex, it is easily changed around.

AC: 77 normal, 81 self buffed, 93 max
10 Base
4 Deflection (white robe)
5 Combat Expertise Feat
1 Dodge Feat
3 Dodge Chattering Ring
2 Dodge Chaosgarde
1 Halfling
4 Insight
7 white robe +1
3 Monk 15
13 Dexterity
10 Wisdom
1 Two Weapon Defense
4 Monk Enhancement (Only class with AC increases, they should have an enh)
4 Natural (boots)
4 Shield Clicky/wand/cake
1 Haste
+77 normal(65 without raid loot/tomes)

2 AC Boost
2 Blocking
+81 self buffed

4 Inspire Heroics
2 Recitation
5 Aura
1 Natural
+93 max

Feats:
dodge, CE, tw defense, twf, toughness, weapon finesse, imp crit

Hps: 388
20base+10DV+30GFL+10fighter+120Monk+112con+18helm+ 23toughness+45goggles
optional +32 for boots

Saves: 32Fort/36Ref/33Will +still mind
2/0/0 Fighter, 10/10/10 Monk, 7/13/10 stats, 5/5/5 resist, 2/2/2 luck
2/2/2 Halfling, 4/5/4 GH and haste

Attack: 31/31/31/31/36/41 31(Depends how twf and flurry works)
12bab +13dex +1Halfling +4gh +1haste +5 Weapon -5CE
+5 shroud kamas with +3dex and +1wis/+4AC

Enhancements:
Halfling: dex II, fort/reflex/will I
Fighter: boost I, intimidate I, item defense I, toughness I
51 points left for Monk, probably +ac/saves/attack, maybe some halfling cunning/guile

Skills:
{49}Balance: 19ranks+13dex+4gh+2luck+11weapon
{36}Jump: 19ranks+5str+4gh+2luck+4goggles+2race
{39}Tumble: 19ranks+13dex+4gh+2luck
{36}Intimidate: 19ranks-1cha+4gh+2luck+11item+1enh
{48}Spot: 19ranks+10wis+13ring+4gh+2luck
{38/36}Hide/MS: 0ranks+13dex+4gh+2luck+15items+4/2race(as required)

Defenses:
Fast Movement +50ft?, Imp Evasion, immune disease/poison, minor self healing, sr 25, heavy fort, concordant Opposition, air guard, blur, 30cold/40fire/15lightning resistance, balance, spot(you can see hidden mobs and traps, and you should be leading since you have imp evasion and want the aggro anyway)

Gear:
Weapons: +5Kama Shock, +1wis +4AC, Air/Earth/Air Balance of Land and sky
+5Kama +9dex, AirX3 Haste 3/rest and air guard
Armor: white dragon robe +1 ac
Helm: minos helm
Belt: +6str GFL
Goggles: Shroud +45hps Concordant Opp +4con/str skills +6wis
Bracers: Chaosgarde
Ring1: +6con
Ring2: Chattering Ring
Cloak: Resist 5
Neck: Emerald Claw Talisman, Fearsome, +11 intimidate
Boots: Madstone
Gloves: Shroud Smoke Screen Fire/Light/Fire+Light Displacement 2/rest, blur
Trinket: Head of Good Fortune
Potions: Haste/Barkskin

Edit: You could move the con to necklace, and use a 15 int ring, and change goggles from hps to +5cha skills, this would get you to 45 intimidate. You don't really need fearsome but is 5 intimidate worth 45hps? I don't use it so I don't know what number is good. You could also drop tumble for umd for rr items and minor wand use. I just don't think you are going to get hurt by anything other then no save nukes, and you have non dispellable resists to help that.

[sigtrent]

Here is what I get, shroud items may be off. I have not read all the pages of posts on shroud items.
My monk build rough draft #2, added 1 Fighter for intimidate and boost. I personally would go pure and duel wield vorpal kamas. You would lose 9ac, 3reflex and 1will save.
Challenge 1 complete, 3 is iffy, AC and saves better, but hps isn't and defense is high but in other areas.

I agree you should get 1. Hard to say what exactly monks will have but I think you can get the AC crown even if you don't get some of those bonuses you project. I also agree 3 is iffy although it might be possible. I could see a halfling monk beating me on saves, especialy if you can find room for a good resistance item (which I couldn't on my build). So that's 2 of 3 that seem likely. HP will be tough, probably not going to happen unless they get toughness enhancements. The defensive buffs is hard to judge but I think an argument could be made if they get SR, evasion, and some immunities as well as thier self healing power.

BTW: What is a litany stat bonus?

[Xyfiel]

Its an abbot trinket +1 all stats but has taint of evil, hence why I wasn't lg. I just realized I didn't put it into the items worn, and I already spent a lot of time to make it work out. Oh well, -2 skills and saves isn't that breaking. Might have to take tier II of halfling saves or assume monks will get a save enh. I could get 38 intimidate without it, which would be fine I think.

[Illuminati]

I don't think they will be giving monks AC enhancements =p

Hling 12 Ranger / 3 Pal / 1 Monk (won't get into feats, etc. since I am still testing this build up to 15)

10 Base
14 Dex (13 Dex mod, 1 from Exceptional)
6 Armor (White Dragon Robe)
6 Wisdom
5 Protection
5 CE
6 Dodge (bracers, feat, ring)
5 Natural
1 Halfling
1 Haste
4 Shield Spell
2 Tempest
2 Aura
4 Insight
-----
71 AC at full DPS

Now, add in the maybes...

+2 Favored
+1 Alchemical
+2 Paladins Action Boost AC

78 AC at full DPS.

[sigtrent]

78 AC at full DPS.

Had a thought... the insight bonus is from a greensteel weapon. There are no greensteel monk weapons currently (have any been announced?). If a monk is using a non-monk weapon I don't they they are running at full DPS.

Not that it would stop you from beating challenge 1 but I wonder none the less.

[Illuminati]

Only thing I care about is wisdom = ac , which only requires no armor (robe) =p

So rapier / ss or ss / ss ftw.

Dagger is a monk wep though I believe.

[Mhykke]

Well, its listed for comparison. It's not especialy great, that's for sure. But that isn't really the goal here. Indeed if anything it illustrates my primary point which is that paladin is primarly a defensive class, indeed the most defensive class in the game.

I'm not promoting this as an especialy desirable build, merely a challenge for others to demonstrate how any other class can achieve superior all around defenses as I often see people claim in paladin debate threads.

That wasn't really the point that some tried to convey. When comparing fighter AC w/ paladin AC, people tried to claim playable AC. Sure, if you build a specific race paladin (at least, high lvl paladin, b/c the issues people had were the break point of paladin and it being useless to lvl past a certain point) w/ a specific belt, he can achieve some of the highest AC in the game.

But as you admit, it's "not especially great", nor is it "extremely desirable." But that's the point. People weren't discussing theoretical builds, that nobody wanted to play. People were discussing builds that people would actually play. It's much easier and desirable to achieve the high AC w/ mostly fighter with pally splash (some feats to spend for offense), or Paladin 11/12 with the rest fighter (again, a couple more feats, along w/ certain APs). With the limited feats for paladins, going mostly paladin (15 or so lvls) focusing on defense, other areas suffer more than they would w/ the mostly fighter or 12P/4F.

It's the same reasoning for the "max AC" thread that is on the forums. Sure, you could build that max AC character. But you'd spend all your time tumbling around to achieve that max AC. Yeah, it's the max AC in the game, but then, so what?

[Shade]

Offense is a bit weak but not totally worthless.

Sorry but yea it is, totally worthless. I'll rename it for you: Mr. Useless mana sponge, or maybe Mr. Can't hurt a fly, or Mr. super AC yet still gets killed left and right

I mean ya the AC number is cool and all and its nice to see the breakdown ,but dont kid yourself that this a playable build, because it isn't. It's terrible and you know it.

So called super tank build that will be utterly killed in situations where u might want a super tank.. Like pit fiend elite - your hp are way too low to survive him and he will laugh at your pathetic AC.

Sometimes I like to think to myself one day there will be a place for the super high AC builds, but the more I think about it the more I realise that will never happen. AC in DDO, and even DnD for that matter is plain broken in the end game. It cannot work simply because a d20 system is too limited when you start adding as much a +80 to the rolls - the dice becomes insignificant and the system breaks down.. One guy is invincible while the next is utterly destroyed by a mere matter of perhaps 20% defense? no, im sorry but AC is broken.

And thats too bad, because I kinda like playing the strong high defense tank that soaks up the dmg but deals little in other games.. It works great.. I mean most rpgs use a simple system.. Armor = % of dmg is reduced, so you get stronger armor and you reduce more - but it is scaled as you level so it's always pretty balanced to prevent you from reducing too much and making things too easy - while letting those not so strong still survive a hit or 2.

Unf that system is too complex for pen and paper and probably too different to translate to ddo, so we are left with a game where the only real melee defense is the simple DR system. Too bad paladins don't get much dr.

[Xyfiel]

'People were discussing builds that people would actually play"

I have played some off the wall builds and know I am not the only one. Not everyone in DDO plays for optimum min/max end game performance. Although watching lfm's looking for barbs/rangers/clerics/sorcs only clearly shows who does. Paladins are not gimp, and many people have tried to prove this. It is the gamestyle that people have that make paladins gimp to them. I am not saying Paladins don't need some attention, but then again, we don't have class specialties for wiz/sorc/cleric/fighter/barb yet either.

If your gamestyle is dps/nuke/heal everything as fast as possible then paladins have no place in your party. If your gamestyle is take the first6 people, and take the challenge head on, then paladins are a great addition.

[Mhykke]

Paladins are not gimp, and many people have tried to prove this. It is the gamestyle that people have that make paladins gimp to them. I am not saying Paladins don't need some attention, but then again, we don't have class specialties for wiz/sorc/cleric/fighter/barb yet either.

Not gimp, but clearly something is needed for the class. As you admit, and as the devs admit by trying to add stuff to the class. Pointing out that paladins are in most need of attention doesn't necessarily call them gimp, but they do need additions.

If your gamestyle is dps/nuke/heal everything as fast as possible then paladins have no place in your party. If your gamestyle is take the first6 people, and take the challenge head on, then paladins are a great addition.

This is meaningless. The point is that paladins are not desired by parties, and fewer and fewer people are playing them. You can set a group and take the first people that join. Chances are more often than not a paladin won't be among that group, b/c fewer people are playing them.

And just by saying "they're a great addition" doesn't make it so.

[Xyfiel]

Shade, ac is not broken. The ability to obtain high numbers may be.

So you are saying that anything that isn't the perfect tank build for Pit Fiend elite is gimp?
Just because that is all you run, it isn't the only quest/diff in the game.

I will run my monk build with 70+ ac and all his other benefits and take very little damage except for Pit Fiend Elite. I can handle that. Being I plan to run it once on the char, probably at L18 or 20.

[sigtrent]

Sorry but yea it is, totally worthless. I'll rename it for you: Mr. Useless mana sponge, or maybe Mr. Can't hurt a fly, or Mr. super AC yet still gets killed left and right.

I can always rely on you for something to argue about. I hardly see how he is remotely a mana sponge considering he has the best overall defenses of any build I've yet seen. I'm not sure exactly how this character is especialy likely to die. you will have to back that up with some kind of actual example.

It's offense is not useless, unless you are saying it is useless as a DPS character. That is true, but DPS characters arn't the only ones that actualy kill monsters. Every party member, DPS or otherwise should find a way to contribute to killing monsters.

I mean ya the AC number is cool and all and its nice to see the breakdown ,but dont kid yourself that this a playable build, because it isn't. It's terrible and you know it..

There is a huge gulf between playable and good. I made my "heavy metal dungeon god" a WF sorc/cleric who two wielded bastards swords without any feats for it and used power attack at level 1. Also was a sorc who only put points in dex (with admantine body) and con. I leveled him solo to level 3. Almost any build in DDO is playable.

This one is even half way decent. What it fails to be is well balanced. Clearly points spent on things like Paladin AC boost are pretty much a waste and throwing level ups into dex for a str fighter is pretty wastefull as well. But I could easily play this build and be a valuable party member.

So called super tank build that will be utterly killed in situations where u might want a super tank.. Like pit fiend elite - your hp are way too low to survive him and he will laugh at your pathetic AC.

Well... you are wrong about that. I've read first hand reports of intimi tanks doing the fiend on elite and he goes 5% on ACs in the 70s. His fire damage is not enough to drop a 400HP character in one hit, especialy one with self casting resists and near auto success reflex saves.

Sometimes I like to think to myself one day there will be a place for the super high AC builds, but the more I think about it the more I realise that will never happen. AC in DDO, and even DnD for that matter is plain broken in the end game. It cannot work simply because a d20 system is too limited when you start adding as much a +80 to the rolls - the dice becomes insignificant and the system breaks down.. One guy is invincible while the next is utterly destroyed by a mere matter of perhaps 20% defense? no, im sorry but AC is broken..

I generaly agree with you there. High AC is still effective but the all or nothing problem is a big issue in DDO and D&D in general. The only thing that keep sit from being utterly broken is the 5% auto hit/miss mechanic. Have you ever actualy played an intimi tank in late game Shade? I can't say that I have but I've read reports and talked to those who do. It's hard to do but it does work.

And thats too bad, because I kinda like playing the strong high defense tank that soaks up the dmg but deals little in other games.. It works great.. I mean most rpgs use a simple system.. Armor = % of dmg is reduced, so you get stronger armor and you reduce more - but it is scaled as you level so it's always pretty balanced to prevent you from reducing too much and making things too easy - while letting those not so strong still survive a hit or 2..

Personaly I don't like the way tanking works in most of those games as the difference between a tank and a non tank is so incredibly large that for many quests you must have a tank, must have a healer etc... I like that DDO lets you realisticly mix roles more and that while a caster is squishy they can set themselves up to tank if they work at it.

Unf that system is too complex for pen and paper and probably too different to translate to ddo, so we are left with a game where the only real melee defense is the simple DR system. Too bad paladins don't get much dr.

The thing is.. those other systems may seem complex under the good, but they are super simple when you play them. Either you are a tank class or you arn't. If you are a tank class and of the appropriate level the fight is just a matter of pushing the right hot bar buttons. If you arn't, you just die.

[Shade]

Well... you are wrong about that. I've read first hand reports of intimi tanks doing the fiend on elite and he goes 5% on ACs in the 70s. His fire damage is not enough to drop a 400HP character in one hit, especialy one with self casting resists and near auto success reflex saves.

Lololol. You read that have you? Wow good for you. But next time don't believe everything you read on the internets.

I've DONE that. Been there, picked up the paladins soulstone, and killed the pit fiend a dozen times. There's a big difference between reading nonsense and knowing the game sir.

This is what I saw:
Pit Fiend Elite vs a friend of mine with 70AC and 400HP... XXX has died. XXX has died. XXX has died. XXX has died. XXX has died. XXX has died. XXX has died. "err ok u can stop rezzing me"

We even fully debuffed him and he did not miss once. His attack score is WELL over +70. On normal, yea you can tank, he has about +50 to hit, so 60 AC good, 70AC invincible.. Not elite.

And who cares about this fire dmg right? His melee dmg hitting in the 90-100 as fast as we can attack is what takes you down. His fire dmg on elite is only 360 dmg fireballs, no big deal right. I mean 1 fireball with a bad roll on the save (dont even have to be a 1 his DC is around 36) + 1 swing in quick succesion = dead paladin in under 2 seconds.

And yea its 1 quest, and the only 1 that is really much of a challenge anymore to me these days. And yes pretty much the only thing im running these days. So for someone super who wants to take on the "impossible" that'd be the goal id say. Will future raids play the same? I think the magic eight ball is pointing to yes since the overall reaction from the players on this raid is very positive.

[Shade]

The thing is.. those other systems may seem complex under the good, but they are super simple when you play them. Either you are a tank class or you arn't. If you are a tank class and of the appropriate level the fight is just a matter of pushing the right hot bar buttons. If you arn't, you just die.

Eh to me it seems like it can be properly balanced unlike this system where the spread is too small. I guess yes some games are unbalanced so you can only have the tank way of doing it, but not all games are like that. Iffor example:

The tank class can absorb 80-90% dmg but deal little and require a little attention of the healer, which is fine, hes helping and probably has the most agro with taunts.

Then the dps class can only absorb 50-60% dmg, so hes getting hurt and needs most of the healers attention- but hes not getting totally destroyed at least, and is putting out the dmg that counts, so he deserves the healers attention.. Everyone has a role.

Vs our system where we have either
Normal:
Tank is near invincible with 95% dmg absorption and thus requires basicly no healing, but deals almost nothing.
DPS is still needed or it will take too long, but dps takes 95% more dmg then the tanks, so instead of the healers helping everyone, they only help the DPS.
Elite:
Either the tank is the only guy who can help and the fight tanks forever leaving all the dps types as useless bystanders, or the tank doesn't matter because he takes the same dmg as the DPS.. A broken system that cannot be balanced because the AC spread between tank and DPS is more then 20 points, the only fair solution is to have everyone take the same dmg - which leaves tanks in the dust due to the system.

In the more non-d20 scaled system, the AC difference can be more then 20 points and both classes can contrubte so the games more fun.. In the d20 system it breaks down in the end game because 20 points is insignificant.

[DaveyCrockett]

Just one point to add.

You are a dwarf.
You list the +4 AC advantage vs giants.
You are a 'theoretical max AC' build.
You fail to take any Giant Dodger enhancements to increase the +4.