Paladin AC Challenge Build (can you defeat him?)

[sigtrent]

This build is from Sigtrent's build request thread

Build Name:Paladin AC Challenge Build
Author: Sigfried Trent
Requester: None
Last Updated: 07/01/10

Key Words [Maximum AC, Tank, Paladin, Siberys]

Objectives
I wanted to prove that Paladins could have the best AC in the game. This was back in 2008 mind you. Now... fighter can go a bit higher and possibly monk (I haven’t done the math for monk) but its not easy by any stretch.

The challenge was if anyone could make a build with better AC
The secondary challenge was if anyone could make a build with better AC, Saves, and HP.

Design
This is one of the rare builds where I did research and made an item list. In this case a fantasy item list of all the most grindy crazy items in the game, but its more a proof of concept than something you should go out and make.

The approach was simple. Make a dwarven paladin with Siberys and everything I could find to increase defenses with AC being primary and saves/hp secondary. And offense with whatever is left over.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(1 Fighter \ 18 Paladin \ 1 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 358
Spell Points: 232 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 24
Reflex: 21
Will: 15

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    16
Dexterity            16                    22
Constitution         14                    18
Intelligence         12                    14
Wisdom               10                    12
Charisma             14                    16

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               7                    20
Bluff                 2                     3
Concentration         2                     7
Diplomacy             2                     3
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                6                     7
Heal                  0                     2
Hide                  3                     6
Intimidate            6                    34
Jump                  6                     7
Listen                4                     5
Move Silently         3                     6
Open Lock             7                    10
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     2
Search                1                     4
Spot                  4                     7
Swim                  2                     3
Tumble                7                    10
Use Magic Device      6                    17

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Listen (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Intimidate
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Enhancement: Dwarven Shield Mastery I


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate I


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Enhancement: Dwarven Shield Mastery II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Warrior of the Wild
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Student of the Sword
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery II


Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Bullheaded
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: CON
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost III
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good IV


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost IV


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: CON
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III

Play
You could make the build and slowly grind out all the items. For most folks, this build has more dex than they will ever manage to utilize so for a practical version I’d tone that down.

I also have to say I think a fighter does this a bit better. This would solo better due to self healing, but the fighter can build for this kind of AC and maintain more offense.

Variations
Something less insane.

Special Gear Section
I poured over what is listed on DDO-Wiki and the problem with item lists is the items in game change constantly. Today’s hot stuff is tomorrows ****. So... this is a dated section 07/01/10

Armor: Epic Red Dragon Scale (+2 max dex in colorless slot and +6Cha)
Shield: Light and Darkness (8shield, Prot 4, Defl 4, DR/5epic, bashing)
Ring1: Chattering Ring (standing the test of time +3 dodge)
Ring2: Band of Siberys (+6Str +1 Excep Cha) w (+2 Excep Dex)
Belt: Belt of the defenders of Siberys (6Con Greater False Life)
Bracers: Chaos Guard (also standing the test of time +2 dodge)
Neck: Epic Hyena Claw (Intim +15, Con +7, toughness)
Trinket: Epic Dusk Heart (Supreme False Life, Dusk, Deathward click)
Boots: Epic Dustless Boots (Blindness immunity)
Gloves: Epic Spectral Gloves (Ether, Dex 7, Poison Immunity)
Helmet: Minos?
Cloak: Greensteel Cloak: Minor Healing Lore, lesser good block, Deathblock)
Googles: Greensteel Goggles: Wiz6,15hp,6Wis,100sp,+3cha skills,Concordant Opposition)
Weapon: Greensteel Dwarven Axe (Flaming, Good burst, +4 Insight, Radiance II)

AC Breakdown
10 Base
16 Armor (Red Scale)
08 Shield (Light and Dark)
10 Dexterity (2 armor, 2 armor enhance, 3 dwarven AM, 1 past life, 2 stalwart)
10 Dodge (chaos, Feat, chattering, Stance)
02 Alchemical Rituals (Armor and Shield)
04 Insight (Greensteel)
05 Deflection (Shield of faith power)
05 Natural Armor (Barkskin reincarnation feat)
06 Paladin Aura
05 Combat Expertise
02 Misc (Siberys item set)
02 Blocking
<85>
04 Inspire Heroics
<89>
05 Paladin Armor Boost
03 Halfling Companion
01 Haste
02 Recitation
<100>
04 Giant Evasion
<104>

Intimidate
23 Ranks
06 Charisma
05 Feats
03 Exceptional
15 Item
01 Enhancements
<53>
04 GH
02 Recitation
02 Inspire Competence
<61>

Saves are in the low 30s to mid 20s
HP is about 560 or so I believe

[Stealthbr]

**** nvm. What shield are you using for this build?

[sigtrent]

**** nvm. What shield are you using for this build?

I'ts the nightforge shield from Black Anvil Mines. Its just a +5 adamantine large shield. I couldn't find anything especialy nifty shield wise. I slapped the alchemical ritual on it (brand new in the mod 7 dev notes).

[Desteria]

YOu may find the the sheild and armor alcemical rituals may not stack, it will depend weather they are and enhcment to the ITEM or a direct bonus to your AC if they are a direct bonus to yuor AC they are both the same type, and not of the dodge type so will nto stack, however if they modifie the sheild bonus or the armor bonus increasing that bonus then they woudl not stack on the same item, (nto saying you can even have 2 rituals just a thory point), but both the sheild bonus and armor bonus could be increast as you have it listed.

Also yopu could increase your base Natural Armor to +4 standing long tern mataniabel with mutiple pairs of madstone boots, it's even undispelable so functions in beholder auras and the like, woudl fre eup a ring slot as well I only suggest this since you did have the build useing lots of raid gear and once you start getitng to 40+ SR's it;s nto to hard to have paicked up a few pairs of booties.

[sigtrent]

YOu may find the the sheild and armor alcemical rituals may not stack, .

Indeed. I'm thinking they are bonuses to the armor/shield rather than to the AC of the wearer directly. We don't know of course but I think its a pretty safe bet.

Also you could increase your base Natural Armor to +4 standing long tern mataniabel with mutiple pairs of madstone boots, it's even undispelable so functions in beholder auras and the like, woudl fre eup a ring slot as well I only suggest this since you did have the build useing lots of raid gear and once you start getitng to 40+ SR's it;s nto to hard to have paicked up a few pairs of booties.

Thanks. I was going with potions for the natural armor due to space. I was mostly just using seal of earth to cast stoneskin. Items were kind of tight so I'm hoping to find some better picks. But you could throw the clickien and then swap back into the dex boots if you are feeling tricky (kind of like how this build has to drop its chattering ring to throw intimidate (which is considerably more work) I'll add that in, thanks!

[Twerpp]

Neat. Did you forget recitation or is there something that trumps that? If you took a rogue level you could easily have the UMD to wand yourself. You wont hit or kill much with 22 str though I would min the CON since you wont be getting hit anyway, and dwarven/pally toughness is available (when you can afford the AP's).

[Shade]

Offense is a bit weak but not totally worthless.

Sorry but yea it is, totally worthless. I'll rename it for you: Mr. Useless mana sponge, or maybe Mr. Can't hurt a fly, or Mr. super AC yet still gets killed left and right

I mean ya the AC number is cool and all and its nice to see the breakdown ,but dont kid yourself that this a playable build, because it isn't. It's terrible and you know it.

So called super tank build that will be utterly killed in situations where u might want a super tank.. Like pit fiend elite - your hp are way too low to survive him and he will laugh at your pathetic AC.

Sometimes I like to think to myself one day there will be a place for the super high AC builds, but the more I think about it the more I realise that will never happen. AC in DDO, and even DnD for that matter is plain broken in the end game. It cannot work simply because a d20 system is too limited when you start adding as much a +80 to the rolls - the dice becomes insignificant and the system breaks down.. One guy is invincible while the next is utterly destroyed by a mere matter of perhaps 20% defense? no, im sorry but AC is broken.

And thats too bad, because I kinda like playing the strong high defense tank that soaks up the dmg but deals little in other games.. It works great.. I mean most rpgs use a simple system.. Armor = % of dmg is reduced, so you get stronger armor and you reduce more - but it is scaled as you level so it's always pretty balanced to prevent you from reducing too much and making things too easy - while letting those not so strong still survive a hit or 2.

Unf that system is too complex for pen and paper and probably too different to translate to ddo, so we are left with a game where the only real melee defense is the simple DR system. Too bad paladins don't get much dr.

[sigtrent]

Sorry but yea it is, totally worthless. I'll rename it for you: Mr. Useless mana sponge, or maybe Mr. Can't hurt a fly, or Mr. super AC yet still gets killed left and right.

I can always rely on you for something to argue about. I hardly see how he is remotely a mana sponge considering he has the best overall defenses of any build I've yet seen. I'm not sure exactly how this character is especialy likely to die. you will have to back that up with some kind of actual example.

It's offense is not useless, unless you are saying it is useless as a DPS character. That is true, but DPS characters arn't the only ones that actualy kill monsters. Every party member, DPS or otherwise should find a way to contribute to killing monsters.

I mean ya the AC number is cool and all and its nice to see the breakdown ,but dont kid yourself that this a playable build, because it isn't. It's terrible and you know it..

There is a huge gulf between playable and good. I made my "heavy metal dungeon god" a WF sorc/cleric who two wielded bastards swords without any feats for it and used power attack at level 1. Also was a sorc who only put points in dex (with admantine body) and con. I leveled him solo to level 3. Almost any build in DDO is playable.

This one is even half way decent. What it fails to be is well balanced. Clearly points spent on things like Paladin AC boost are pretty much a waste and throwing level ups into dex for a str fighter is pretty wastefull as well. But I could easily play this build and be a valuable party member.

So called super tank build that will be utterly killed in situations where u might want a super tank.. Like pit fiend elite - your hp are way too low to survive him and he will laugh at your pathetic AC.

Well... you are wrong about that. I've read first hand reports of intimi tanks doing the fiend on elite and he goes 5% on ACs in the 70s. His fire damage is not enough to drop a 400HP character in one hit, especialy one with self casting resists and near auto success reflex saves.

Sometimes I like to think to myself one day there will be a place for the super high AC builds, but the more I think about it the more I realise that will never happen. AC in DDO, and even DnD for that matter is plain broken in the end game. It cannot work simply because a d20 system is too limited when you start adding as much a +80 to the rolls - the dice becomes insignificant and the system breaks down.. One guy is invincible while the next is utterly destroyed by a mere matter of perhaps 20% defense? no, im sorry but AC is broken..

I generaly agree with you there. High AC is still effective but the all or nothing problem is a big issue in DDO and D&D in general. The only thing that keep sit from being utterly broken is the 5% auto hit/miss mechanic. Have you ever actualy played an intimi tank in late game Shade? I can't say that I have but I've read reports and talked to those who do. It's hard to do but it does work.

And thats too bad, because I kinda like playing the strong high defense tank that soaks up the dmg but deals little in other games.. It works great.. I mean most rpgs use a simple system.. Armor = % of dmg is reduced, so you get stronger armor and you reduce more - but it is scaled as you level so it's always pretty balanced to prevent you from reducing too much and making things too easy - while letting those not so strong still survive a hit or 2..

Personaly I don't like the way tanking works in most of those games as the difference between a tank and a non tank is so incredibly large that for many quests you must have a tank, must have a healer etc... I like that DDO lets you realisticly mix roles more and that while a caster is squishy they can set themselves up to tank if they work at it.

Unf that system is too complex for pen and paper and probably too different to translate to ddo, so we are left with a game where the only real melee defense is the simple DR system. Too bad paladins don't get much dr.

The thing is.. those other systems may seem complex under the good, but they are super simple when you play them. Either you are a tank class or you arn't. If you are a tank class and of the appropriate level the fight is just a matter of pushing the right hot bar buttons. If you arn't, you just die.

[Shade]

Well... you are wrong about that. I've read first hand reports of intimi tanks doing the fiend on elite and he goes 5&#37; on ACs in the 70s. His fire damage is not enough to drop a 400HP character in one hit, especialy one with self casting resists and near auto success reflex saves.

Lololol. You read that have you? Wow good for you. But next time don't believe everything you read on the internets.

I've DONE that. Been there, picked up the paladins soulstone, and killed the pit fiend a dozen times. There's a big difference between reading nonsense and knowing the game sir.

This is what I saw:
Pit Fiend Elite vs a friend of mine with 70AC and 400HP... XXX has died. XXX has died. XXX has died. XXX has died. XXX has died. XXX has died. XXX has died. "err ok u can stop rezzing me"

We even fully debuffed him and he did not miss once. His attack score is WELL over +70. On normal, yea you can tank, he has about +50 to hit, so 60 AC good, 70AC invincible.. Not elite.

And who cares about this fire dmg right? His melee dmg hitting in the 90-100 as fast as we can attack is what takes you down. His fire dmg on elite is only 360 dmg fireballs, no big deal right. I mean 1 fireball with a bad roll on the save (dont even have to be a 1 his DC is around 36) + 1 swing in quick succesion = dead paladin in under 2 seconds.

And yea its 1 quest, and the only 1 that is really much of a challenge anymore to me these days. And yes pretty much the only thing im running these days. So for someone super who wants to take on the "impossible" that'd be the goal id say. Will future raids play the same? I think the magic eight ball is pointing to yes since the overall reaction from the players on this raid is very positive.

[DaveyCrockett]

Just one point to add.

You are a dwarf.
You list the +4 AC advantage vs giants.
You are a 'theoretical max AC' build.
You fail to take any Giant Dodger enhancements to increase the +4.

[sigtrent]

Just one point to add.

You fail to take any Giant Dodger enhancements to increase the +4.

I wasn't trying to make the maximum possibel AC, just the highest overall defense (and possibly self buffed AC). I posted the theoretical AC mostly for fun. I don't usualy think such things are very good for comparison.

[Aspenor]

I hate to say this Sig but Shade has a point. Big Red does not miss. Ever. Everyone that is meleeing him should be putting away their shields and giving him all that they have.

[sigtrent]

Lololol. You [COLOR=Red]read[COLOR=White] that have you? Wow good for you. But next time don't believe everything you read on the internets.

Yep shade I read it. A guy was actualy trying to set out his to hit values with different AC levels on different difficulties. I'll happily take his first person account and careful anylasis over you "some paladin in my group hot his ass kicked" any day of the week and twice on sundays.

[Shade]

Yep shade I read it. A guy was actualy trying to set out his to hit values with different AC levels on different difficulties. I'll happily take his first person account and careful anylasis over you "some paladin in my group hot his ass kicked" any day of the week and twice on sundays.

lol well be in the dark then. If you wanna trust some random straight up wrong annonymous source, go for it.

Don't trust the guy that dozens of the best players around will confirm has beaten it over 10 times.

Worse yet, don't ever attempt it yourself to see for yourself, just trust some random totallty wrong numbers, thats the smart thing to do. Actually playing the game and being there for firsthand knowledge? pfft right?

[Shade]

The thing is.. those other systems may seem complex under the good, but they are super simple when you play them. Either you are a tank class or you arn't. If you are a tank class and of the appropriate level the fight is just a matter of pushing the right hot bar buttons. If you arn't, you just die.

Eh to me it seems like it can be properly balanced unlike this system where the spread is too small. I guess yes some games are unbalanced so you can only have the tank way of doing it, but not all games are like that. Iffor example:

The tank class can absorb 80-90% dmg but deal little and require a little attention of the healer, which is fine, hes helping and probably has the most agro with taunts.

Then the dps class can only absorb 50-60% dmg, so hes getting hurt and needs most of the healers attention- but hes not getting totally destroyed at least, and is putting out the dmg that counts, so he deserves the healers attention.. Everyone has a role.

Vs our system where we have either
Normal:
Tank is near invincible with 95% dmg absorption and thus requires basicly no healing, but deals almost nothing.
DPS is still needed or it will take too long, but dps takes 95% more dmg then the tanks, so instead of the healers helping everyone, they only help the DPS.
Elite:
Either the tank is the only guy who can help and the fight tanks forever leaving all the dps types as useless bystanders, or the tank doesn't matter because he takes the same dmg as the DPS.. A broken system that cannot be balanced because the AC spread between tank and DPS is more then 20 points, the only fair solution is to have everyone take the same dmg - which leaves tanks in the dust due to the system.

In the more non-d20 scaled system, the AC difference can be more then 20 points and both classes can contrubte so the games more fun.. In the d20 system it breaks down in the end game because 20 points is insignificant.

[sigtrent]

In the more non-d20 scaled system, the AC difference can be more then 20 points and both classes can contrubte so the games more fun.. In the d20 system it breaks down in the end game because 20 points is insignificant.

I generaly agree. What I like most in D&D is there is a bit more variablitly, aka more chance for a statisticaly bad match up to come out in your favor with some craftyness and luck. But the AC vs tohit system and scale of HP have some serious problems.

[Inspire]

Dodge and MOBILITY(+4 Ac When Tumbling)... Not Sure If This Was Said Already... But Thats 92 From Your 88, If You Wanna Get Specific.

*Edit* Add +1 From Enhancments (Not Sure What Lvl Fighter You Have To Be For First Tier)