request to change the raid chest mechanic

[Pellegro]

I think its good that the raid loot mechanic encourages you to get the full 12 players.

The more players who get to experience raids, the longer the game remains viable.

Otherwise, you're back to where things were before - few if any raid PUGs, and no way to Raid unless you're in a Raiding Guild.

The new loot mechanic has IMO gone far towards improving this game for the masses. And the uber elites - you can still run it short manned, since you're not likely to get the PUGger to trade you their loot regardless.

[nbhs275]

I think its good that the raid loot mechanic encourages you to get the full 12 players.

The more players who get to experience raids, the longer the game remains viable.

Otherwise, you're back to where things were before - few if any raid PUGs, and no way to Raid unless you're in a Raiding Guild.

The new loot mechanic has IMO gone far towards improving this game for the masses. And the uber elites - you can still run it short manned, since you're not likely to get the PUGger to trade you their loot regardless.

Im not against 12 man raids, but as it stands none of the raids outright requires 12 men. <shroud doesnt have literal raidloot and im fine with the way it runs>

All of them can be done with less, example.

dragon 2-3
DQ 1
Reaver 1
Titan 2-3
Abbot could be done 3-5 before puzzles where required, if the puzzles didnt bug now 6 could complete it.

Take reaver for example. There are plenty of sorcerers and wizards out there that can solo him on elite easily. But because of the loot system now they have to basically support 11 random puggers for the chance to see loot drop.

Also, i wasnt in a raiding guild, i learned through my own trial and error with a friend(nefferious, who has since left the game) and a few random pugged 3rd men. It doesnt take much more then trial, and taking risk to learn how to survive and complete these raids.

[moorewr]

Take reaver for example. There are plenty of sorcerers and wizards out there that can solo him on elite easily. But because of the loot system now they have to basically support 11 random puggers for the chance to see loot drop.

Statistics tells us that your own chance of loot dropping is the same whether you solo it or pack your raid.

[Rafal]

Please elaborate on your comment... because where I stand nbhs275 hit it on the head that is excatly what happens in the reaver...

Spot on. In fact I only actively play when I am on my caster or on my cleric. When I am on most of my other toons I usually stay back in a corner and try to range/curse ellys and Reaver waiting bored to get chests. I would rather go in 2 or 3 and have a real deal fight for 2 loot items like before. Now I am mostly "advancing my counter" only counting on 20th run to get a good chance for a drop I want.

[nbhs275]

Statistics tells us that your own chance of loot dropping is the same whether you solo it or pack your raid.

yea, but when there is only 1 item you need, the chances of getting it when your getting one 1 random item, of a list of 20, once every four runs, is very very very slim.

Where as when i could run reaver with 2 ppl, and get 2 drops, there was a halfway decent chance of getting what you wanted. Though the loot chances have to be adjusted on this aspect i think. Consider this.

My battle cleric soloed DQ 12 times. I have 8 sets of dustless boots on him. I dont think that of a 20 item list, one item should drop 33&#37; of the time.


oh, and 20th run rewards? i have yet(of 8 20th runs of many different raids) to see a single tome. Seems like more then bad luck.

[moorewr]

yea, but when there is only 1 item you need, the chances of getting it when your getting one 1 random item, of a list of 20, once every four runs, is very very very slim.

Where as when i could run reaver with 2 ppl, and get 2 drops, there was a halfway decent chance of getting what you wanted. Though the loot chances have to be adjusted on this aspect i think. Consider this.

Yes, and I think the result is that more people run raids. That's good for the longevity of the game.. um.. when the raids work...

[jkm]

Statistics tells us that your own chance of loot dropping is the same whether you solo it or pack your raid.

this is funny because i have since moved from my solo runs to duo runs on elite. for 2, we have had one piece of raid loot 75&#37; of the time we have been in there (8 attempts). whereas it was a around 15% for solos.

so in 35 runs which would have been 70 pieces of raid loot before, we now have now dropped 10...

[moorewr]

this is funny because i have since moved from my solo runs to duo runs on elite. for 2, we have had one piece of raid loot 75% of the time we have been in there (8 attempts). whereas it was a around 15% for solos.

so in 35 runs which would have been 70 pieces of raid loot before, we now have now dropped 10...

It's funny how irrelevant the old system drop rate is to the discussion at hand. You wont ever get it back. It's a dead issue.

[nbhs275]

Yes, and I think the result is that more people run raids. That's good for the longevity of the game.. um.. when the raids work...

no, i dont think more people run raids. Its the same number of people as before doing the raids, with more people mooching.

Its not really "good for the game" as i've seen ALOT of people leave because the raids are just not any challenge or fun with 12 people. It was fun when we could fight Velah with 2 bards and a sorc, and get a reward. ITs boring as hell to kill velah with 12 people. 4 people do something in von 5, and 2 people do anything in 6. yawn.

[moorewr]

no, i dont think more people run raids. Its the same number of people as before doing the raids, with more people mooching.

Its not really "good for the game" as i've seen ALOT of people leave because the raids are just not any challenge or fun with 12 people. It was fun when we could fight Velah with 2 bards and a sorc, and get a reward. ITs boring as hell to kill velah with 12 people. 4 people do something in von 5, and 2 people do anything in 6. yawn.

So, if I wade through the pejorative language, you agree with me that more players are, shall we say, "attending" the raids than before? OK then.

Now, if you are bored, try pushing one of tthose so-called "moochers" to the front. They may be worried they will screw something up and excited to be asked. Like all the times I asked to tank the reaver with my fighter and ended up watching from the archway. Ask the newbies to try flying to the levers - even if it gets them killed, so what? Give a little, son, give to receive. And if that doesn't work there's always AoC or Hard liquor to ease the tedium of your raiding experience.


as an aside:
*** is anybody going to do with 70 items from a raid, anyway? Line their guild housing with madstone shields?

[jkm]

It's funny how irrelevant the old system drop rate is to the discussion at hand. You wont ever get it back. It's a dead issue.

do you really think i want the old loot system back? i don't solo or duo the reaver for loot, i do it because its a heck of a lot more fun than either healing, casting dancing balls or pressing fod for 12 minutes. a buddy of mine leveled his own gimp (with a 3rd doing the same) just so he could have as much fun getting tossed around like a lottery ball as i do.

the only reason i bring up the old loot system is as a comparison to the new one which was supposed to bring so much more loot into the game.

[jkm]

So, if I wade through the pejorative language, you agree with me that more players are, shall we say, "attending" the raids than before? OK then.

Now, if you are bored, try pushing one of tthose so-called "moochers" to the front. They may be worried they will screw something up and excited to be asked. Like all the times I asked to tank the reaver with my fighter and ended up watching from the archway. Ask the newbies to try flying to the levers - even if it gets them killed, so what? Give a little, son, give to receive. And if that doesn't work there's always AoC or Hard liquor to ease the tedium of your raiding experience.


as an aside:
*** is anybody going to do with 70 items from a raid, anyway? Line their guild housing with madstone shields?

personally, i'd sell them. a cloudburst is worth 128k, the +4 hide armor of greater silent moves that i've pulled 5 times is worth 49k. what really sucks on the chest is when you roll really low and get a level 9 item worth 25k...

[Uska]

I'd like to see the special raid chest eliminated entirely, and instead you simply get a chance at having raid items in the end reward (on every completion, not just 20th). The chance of an item in the end list would have to be modified so that the overall rate is the same as now.

Not only would that mean someone who advances his quest automatically gets a chance for a raid loot, but also there is no longer any reason to pack the group out to 12 when 3 players was enough to win.

Lets count this as one of the worst ideas I have ever seen, with a full party the current way you have a chance at 12 items in a raid, sure you have a chance at 0 but your way if you have a choice at an item you cant use you cant offer it to someone else for free or a trade or maybe some plat. The OP has a good idea and I support it but not your idea. Yes I have seen 0 items in a raid a few times and once I saw 9 items appear and most of them were offered to other party members, so current system other than the nastyness mentioned by the op is pretty darn good.

[Uska]

That's the big upside. No longer will you be forced to sit around trying to pack 12 players into the raid simply to get the full chance at loot.

If your so uber you can do this now, no need to take away the chance from others who are more social and like having full groups.

[Uska]

Bingo.

Bongo

[Uska]

People keep the tomes anyway. I have seen a Cleric use a DEX tome before. I've also seen a Barbarian use an INT tome, and another use a CHA tome. Trade is either overrated or too harshly enforced. The rest of us get asked "Do you have 1 million plat? If not I use this.", and we watch as what we have been hunting for over half a year gets eaten right in front of us.

The Guild Blacklist is growing rather large due to things like this(by large I mean more than 10 people).

If I pull a +3 tome I am going to offer it up for sale even if I can use it as I am very cash poor but I will take items as well as cash and I wont expect millions of gold(will take if offered) as to your examples well my cleric could use more dex and barbs could use more int for more skills and cha well I know someone with a barb with some umd so cha would be good there. It's their tome to do with what they wish and people shouldnt expect them to just give them away(though I did see someone offer up a +3 tome to the clerics in the party more then once) as its not like they drop everytime. I was actualy offered up the chance to roll on a wis tome on my cleric but since it wouldnt have really helped me I let the other cleric just take it.

[Uska]

Well I've never run into that but fine, lets say I pull my 3rd madstone shield then.... The point is most raid loot is given away

You are so correct I see so many people give stuff away in the reaver I am so pleased at the giving nature of people I have seen on Khyber at least, I myself have given most items I have offered as I cant use them now a tome I would ask up for something for it as I can really use the money as I have less then 200k pp between all my characters, but I wouldnt eat a tome just because I didnt get what some would call a good offer. Heck most of the time if the person getting the tome gives me their chest would be at least something and I would have nothing to cry about. Yes I did this once +3 int tome which was of no use to my cleric.

[Uska]

Well everyones arguement against the old raid system was it hurt the casual gamers, which i didnt. There wasnt a limited amount of raid loot in the game. If one person soloed DQ, it didnt mean a 12 man got no loot. It meant that 1 person took a very high risk, and got a higher payoff.

The problem was that "casual" players didnt want the risk, but the same reward. The result now is that most raid groups have the same 3-4 people doing it all like they had when it was 2 drops, with 8-9 "casual" players tagging along so that there is a chance for loot to drop. I mean, look at reaver, what do you see? 1-2 people healing, a person tanking, and maybe 1-2 casters dealing with ellies. The other 7-9 basically stand in the corner waiting for loot. Compared to when i could go in there on my ranger with my fighter friend on normal, and we could have a real fight with the reaver that took skill and communication. I wish they had left some option for small groups.

Because im really sick of instead of having an epic fight between my ranger and the DQ, i have me and a sorc killing lialat with some fighters hiding waiting for free loot.

I really hope that one of the raids in the next mod requires your group to split up, kinda like in shroud 4, but you have a long fight to get back together.

Right now in the Reaver I am usually the cleric keeping the tank alive or one of the casters keeping the ele's in check and I have no problem with the so called 7-9 coming along for the ride it just means a better chance of everyone getting something nice. But I do like your idea of the party being split and having a long fight to get back together that does sound like a exciting fun time. Come on devs lets do this

[Uska]

Please elaborate on your comment... because where I stand nbhs275 hit it on the head that is excatly what happens in the reaver...

And that hurts anyone how it still gives all a better chance at something nice

[Uska]

this is funny because i have since moved from my solo runs to duo runs on elite. for 2, we have had one piece of raid loot 75% of the time we have been in there (8 attempts). whereas it was a around 15% for solos.

so in 35 runs which would have been 70 pieces of raid loot before, we now have now dropped 10...

Still a better chance if you did full groups but doing solo or duo's is your choice