New Must-Have Feats

[Impaqt]

I really have trouble accepting this view. Empower healing: 10 additional spell points for 50% increase to healing ability. That means that as long as the 50% increase is higher than what your 10 mana is hitting for - this spell is beneficial in improving your mana usage::heal point ratio. So this spell is not useful for CLW, or CMW, but CSW is the "break even point" from my testing - and every healing spell of higher level than that is going to give you more healing for the amount of mana you are using. This is not even including cleric improved empower healing enhancements.

IMO Empower healing's ability to curve the mana::heals ratio in the cleric's favor makes it essential for those looking to save $$. Now for my buyer beware - know how much your heals do. I get more irate by the cleric wasting their money hitting me with heal scrolls and spells when I'm down 30 HP than the clerics that don't heal at all due to some inherent mental defect. If you know how much your heals hit for, and approximate HP of your party, you can generally hit them with just what they need to be at ~95% - not full health; but close enough that I didn't waste a single spell point in overhealing.

Now, when it comes to Gren's original post - I don't think maximize and quicken are essential. They are essential for MY cleric builds - because I like to use all the mana I save by effective healing during the quest to help nuke end bosses - but that's my playstyle. They are not essential.

Of course, that always leaves "what else should I take," which brings me back to how FUN 300 point, quickened BB's can be

285 Point Heals are good enough for me. Its not hard to judge how to efectively heal with that number. The Huge problem arrises when you hitting for 400 or whatever the math comes out to and must wait till half your tanks are borderline dead before you hit em. A Small Amount of Lag or a quick second hit and poof. they're toast... Or you wind up Overhealign all the time because you Masses do a fine job, but its Immpossible to Switch between Empowered Mass Spells and Non-Empowered HEALS.

I'll Stick with Empower Spell. My Mass's Have the Exact Same Benefit and my Heals arent effected. and if you really want to talk about Efficency, lets look at Maximize....

Cure Mass Serious, Level 7 Spell. 40 Spell points. DOUBLE its effectivelness for 65 Spell Points. If you cant get away with that mass healing I cant help ya.

Matt... it seems Everything is a Cake walk for you in this game..... Why does how easy everything is for you need to come into everyone elses threads? I've made my stance on Empowered healing. I've used it inthe past and I'll never use it again. I mass Heal in the Shroud whenever its necessary. Its usually not. I much prefer to Take care of 2 tanks with HEAL and scrolls. But if I have to go Mass healing, Empower Spell and Maximize work just fine.

[Samadhi]

2 Additional Spell Points? I dont think thats the case... But if it is I would certainly look at Empower Healing again..

The Description says the enhancments reduce cost by 1,2,4 which would mean it still couts you 6 Extra SPell Points for +50% Healing.. And I dont find that all that exciting for 12 action points spent.

I use too many Heal Spells and Heal scrolls for Empower Healing to be WOrth it to me. For the times when I do need to spam some cure mass spells, Maximize or Empower spell suits me just fine.

And for Max EMpowered Blade Barriers... Drop ONE in the Shroud Part 2 and I rarely ever have tothrow a heal.. let alone a mass cure... ALl the aggro goes to me.

You're correct with the numbers - it is definitely not two mana more.

The problem with maximize and empower is that they are skewing the mana::heals ratio too far towards baseline (although it has improved with the new metamagics vs. the old). Empower is giving you the same +50% healing boost - but at an additional 15 mana per spell with no opportunity to reduce the cost through enhancements. Maximize is better (putting your boost/mana at 4.0, 3.3 for empower, 5.0 for empower heal with no enhancements, 8.3 for eH with all enhancements) - but maybe I should just upload a chart or something. Either way - I better get back to work. Peace

[maddmatt70]

285 Point Heals are good enough for me. Its not hard to judge how to efectively heal with that number. The Huge problem arrises when you hitting for 400 or whatever the math comes out to and must wait till half your tanks are borderline dead before you hit em. A Small Amount of Lag or a quick second hit and poof. they're toast... Or you wind up Overhealign all the time because you Masses do a fine job, but its Immpossible to Switch between Empowered Mass Spells and Non-Empowered HEALS.

I'll Stick with Empower Spell. My Mass's Have the Exact Same Benefit and my Heals arent effected. and if you really want to talk about Efficency, lets look at Maximize....

Cure Mass Serious, Level 7 Spell. 40 Spell points. DOUBLE its effectivelness for 65 Spell Points. If you cant get away with that mass healing I cant help ya.

You can stick with empower for sure, but the point samadhi and myself are making is it is just more efficient to use empower healing. Empower healing is perfect for places like parts 4 and 5 of the shroud, the old abbot raid healing through the inferno, and is nice as a general usage spell. It is really nice for a sustained burst of healing power for a long time. I dont really understand your argument especially in light of the current mod. Again I would suggest you try it out on one of your clerics and note the difference and discuss this from a practical standpoint and less from a theoretical standpoint. Blade barrior is a great spell, but I felt it was more effective/important in the last mod. Running with the devils end fight not with standing overall a little less useful in mod6 then mod5. Mod7 it may be even more important then mod6 or mod5 and I others will adjust.

Matt... it seems Everything is a Cake walk for you in this game..... Why does how easy everything is for you need to come into everyone elses threads? I've made my stance on Empowered healing. I've used it inthe past and I'll never use it again. I mass Heal in the Shroud whenever its necessary. Its usually not. I much prefer to Take care of 2 tanks with HEAL and scrolls. But if I have to go Mass healing, Empower Spell and Maximize work just fine.

Way back in the early days of the mod the devs made two changes to part 2. One was a change to a bug which was highly necessary and the other was a change to the penalty box because they wanted casual players to get through at least part 3 of the raid and feared they wouldn't be able to on a regular basis. The casual player's equipment,skills, and knowledge of the quest has gotten good enough that they don't have problems with part 2. They often have a vorpal to kill the mobs running around and sufficient dps for the lieutenants to overcome that difficulty. In a word it is easy for them and a joke for the non casual players at this point.

It is becoming less about preference and more about efficiency in the shroud when it comes to healing styles. Your rotating healing style is inefficient really as you can only keep two tanks up and has an inefficient mana rate usage. It is becoming increasingly hard to find clerics for a shroud run such that I recommend 2 cleric parties these days with a fair amount of dps in the rest of the group. Less non melee char/ range char in the shroud also slows down a shroud run in general.

[Impaqt]

You can stick with empower for sure, but the point samadhi and myself are making is it is just more efficient to use empower healing. Empower healing is perfect for places like parts 4 and 5 of the shroud, the old abbot raid healing through the inferno, and is nice as a general usage spell. It is really nice for a sustained burst of healing power for a long time. I dont really understand your argument especially in light of the current mod. Again I would suggest you try it out on one of your clerics and note the difference and discuss this from a practical standpoint and less from a theoretical standpoint. Blade barrior is a great spell, but I felt it was more effective/important in the last mod. Running with the devils end fight not with standing overall a little less useful in mod6 then mod5. Mod7 it may be even more important then mod6 or mod5 and I others will adjust.



Way back in the early days of the mod the devs made two changes to part 2. One was a change to a bug which was highly necessary and the other was a change to the penalty box because they wanted casual players to get through at least part 3 of the raid and feared they wouldn't be able to on a regular basis. The casual player's equipment,skills, and knowledge of the quest has gotten good enough that they don't have problems with part 2. They often have a vorpal to kill the mobs running around and sufficient dps for the lieutenants to overcome that difficulty. In a word it is easy for them and a joke for the non casual players at this point.

It is becoming less about preference and more about efficiency in the shroud when it comes to healing styles. Your rotating healing style is inefficient really as you can only keep two tanks up and has an inefficient mana rate usage. It is becoming increasingly hard to find clerics for a shroud run such that I recommend 2 cleric parties these days with a fair amount of dps in the rest of the group. Less non melee char/ range char in the shroud also slows down a shroud run in general.

OK, Say ya got 5 tanks ont he Pit Fiend.....

Please dont preach inneficiencies to me. I mass cure when I need to. Where is the mana savings when half the melee dont actually need a cure yet? I run a Completion or 2 every night. and I have 3 clerics. Your way isnt the only way to do things.

[maddmatt70]

OK, Say ya got 5 tanks ont he Pit Fiend.....

Please dont preach inneficiencies to me. I mass cure when I need to. Where is the mana savings when half the melee dont actually need a cure yet? I run a Completion or 2 every night. and I have 3 clerics. Your way isnt the only way to do things.

Yeah and I have run over 100 completions so what is your point. Really it is a shame that with 3 clerics you haven't even tried empower healing out in the shroud raid.. Just switch a feat and a few enhancements around and give it a go and then come back here and post about your experiences with it. I never maintained my way is the only way to do things, but I just gave a few reasons for why it is the best way. I never heard any sort of arguments from you on why your way is better.

[Impaqt]

Yeah and I have run over 100 completions so what is your point. Really it is a shame that with 3 clerics you haven't even tried empower healing out in the shroud raid.. Just switch a feat and a few enhancements around and give it a go and then come back here and post about your experiences with it. I never maintained my way is the only way to do things, but I just gave a few reasons for why it is the best way. I never heard any sort of arguments from you on why your way is better.

?? I havent had a problem without it. I dunno.. Maybe some people do need it.... I never said my way is "Better" I just said my way works for me and I dont like Empower Healing.

[maddmatt70]

?? I havent had a problem without it. I dunno.. Maybe some people do need it.... I never said my way is "Better" I just said my way works for me and I dont like Empower Healing.

This whole discussion of empower healing reminds of what has been occurring in the bard forums for sometime now. There is a set of posters on the bard forums who are living in mod3/mod4 and haven't arrived at the fact the game has changed. Empower healing is the healing feat of choice for fights like the pit fiend as it is all about sustained, efficient, and decently powered healing. Empower healing is about decent healing spell power for endurance healing. If there is more and more boss fights that last 3-10 minutes and this same sort of sustained healing is required then empower healing will be the feat for clerics. The question remains will there be the same old guard that will be resistant to changes in the game if the game continues to change - in all likelihood yes there will be and I guess you can be counted as one of that number. If the game changes in a different way I will be perfectly willing to drop empower healing, but I have a feeling there will be more pit fiends in the future and with one more feat coming at the level 18 cap why wouldn't you be willing to pull the trigger...

[Impaqt]

Why cant you just accept that there is more than one way to do things in this game and move on? My Clerics do just fine without EMpower healing.... I dont quite understand why you cant accept that.

[samho]

I have cleric with empower healing feat and also has cleric without empower healing (yes, I have 6 cleric, I have enough chance to experiment many thing except the poor Turn undead... but it's my choice to never look it back). Like what Impaqt said, there's so many way to skin a pit fiend

[FluffyCalico]

Must have feats:

Eschew materials

So when did making all your spells cost more points to cast become must have feat when all it does is save you a couple back pack spots?

As for spell components cost. Half your cleric spells dont even use spell components and you can sell 1 piece of trash from shroud and buy a stack of 1000 spell components to last you at least a month.

[maddmatt70]

I have cleric with empower healing feat and also has cleric without empower healing (yes, I have 6 cleric, I have enough chance to experiment many thing except the poor Turn undead... but it's my choice to never look it back). Like what Impaqt said, there's so many way to skin a pit fiend

It is not about the many ways to skin a cat, but rather in his words the waste of a feat otherwise known as empower healing. I just pointed out to him the efficiencies involved with empower healing and how perfectly suited it is for fighting the pit fiend and oh how glad I am that I have it for the shroud which happens to be the primary quest of this mod and really only new runnable raid that has been released in about a year's time.. Sadly, he didn't seem to alter his position...

[Impaqt]

It is not about the many ways to skin a cat, but rather in his words the waste of a feat otherwise known as empower healing. I just pointed out to him the efficiencies involved with empower healing and how perfectly suited it is for fighting the pit fiend and oh how glad I am that I have it for the shroud which happens to be the primary quest of this mod and really only new runnable raid that has been released in about a year's time.. Sadly, he didn't seem to alter his position...

Just like you wont alter yours. Let it go dude.

[bigj1608]

I have these:

maximize
empower healing
quicken
extend
mt
imt
spell pen
and will take greater spell pen at 18

empower healing costs 6 spell points to add 25% effectiveness of you helas if you take the enhancements for it, which i've done, meaning any heal spell except cure light wounds I save spellpoints compared to a cleric without empower healing.. and with only a greater potency 7 scepter, my non crit heals hit for 405, excellent for lettin the barbs get low

[Ransacked]

Thought I'd stir the hornet's nest some...

What do you all consider your "Must-Have" cleric feats? Post Mod6, i consider the following absolutely essential:

Quicken
Empower Healing
Maximize

The other stuff is gravy, but I HAVE to have these three to feel like an effective modern cleric.

I also have Extend, Empower, Mental & IMT on my human (heavier nuke) and Extend, Improved Crit: Pierce, Power Attack (<-- may become something else) and Toughness on my Dwarven Shaman.

/gren

Must have feats for me...

Extend
Maximize
Toughness
Mental / Improved Mental Toughness
Imp. Critical Slashing
Toughness
:P
Dwarf build + Dwarven Axe

[JayDubya]

On my main cleric - I use Empowered Healing, with some enhancements. It seems to work for me, but I can see the case where Maximize might be more efficient in certain cases. I forget what the others are - the two mana boosts...

On my 12th level cleric, my feats are: Enchantment Focus, Greater Enchantment Focus and Spell Pen. Because I'd rather see my enemies lying on their backs (Via Greater Command) than worry about healing. Between the enhancements and the supoerior items, my healing is pretty nice for most situations.

This will be an issue for him in boss fights - obviously the CC is no longer important there. I may add Maximize as an experiment there, if necessary.

I may also have to try out Quicken, since everyone seems to love it.

[Desteria]

This REALLY depends what type of cleric you want to have ... Battle, Heal/buff Bot, Caster cleric(nuke or CC/insta kill type), Celric who does a rouges job to, Walking shrine, Hafling Dragon marked .....
The only one I would say is total universal imo is QUICKEN SPELL it's got strong uses fro every oen of those build really, a close secodn is Empower Healing since most every cleric heals a bunch even if it;s ONLY self healign froma battle celric, and it;s the onyl one that effects the heal spell I belive.

to break it down a bit a core set of feats I whould look at for the above types:
Battle: Quicken, Empower healing, PA, dependign on if you tanked wis Highten fro CC/instal kill and melle moddle

Heal/buff Bot: Quicken, Empower healing, Extend, MT, IMT

Caster Cleric(CC/insta kill): Qicken, Highten, Spell Pen, gtr spell pen, MT, IMT

Caster Cleric(Nuke): Quicken, Emp, Max, Highten(less needed your nukes are decently high level and mostly save for half), MT, IMT

Walking Shrine: add Extra turning to above secodn dary template.

Hafling Dragon marked: Empower Healing, Dragon mark[I, II, III], Quicken, Max

My cleric Is a mostly caster cleric that likes REALLY big group heals on raids she has something like the following:
Empower Healing, Emp, MAX, Highten, Quicken, MT, IMT - I keep thinking of swaping in some spell pen but dang it i liek seeing that 1665 SP before adding tier 3 to my SP item, probably shoudl as some point for efectiveness on my GTR comand and Destruction/Banisment.

[Desteria]

I may also have to try out Quicken, since everyone seems to love it.

I never though I'd like quicken til i tryed it now I almost never turn it off, (unfortnutly as i keep frogeting to turn it off for buffing hehe)

Being able to drop a BB fast rocks, havign heal be a vistualy instal your full HP button is pricless, also since i have Emp healign emp and max MY mcmw spell is a virtualy instant 200 HP to every one(crits for 350ish with current set up), this is wonderfull in the shroud I actuly do need to do some testing on excaly where the best SP efficecy is but I'm purty sure it's with them all on still.

[Twerpp]

I dropped empower healing..it was fun in Mod 5 though for sure!

Everything except party buffs are quickened!

Maximize, Empower, Extend, and Heighten in that order of preference.

Also have Mental toughnesses (devs can you please add a third??) because you can see how fast I burn mana. I'm a very wasteful cleric and rarely toggle my metamagics.

[Deaths_ward]

Current Arguments aside my lvl Halfling Cleric 12/Fighter 1 currently has, and yes I've heard the whole why bother dragon marking a cleric thing...it's getting old.

Least Dragonmark of Healing
Empower Heal
Lesser Dragonmark of Healing
Greater Dragonmark of Healing
Maximize Spell
Improved Critical: Slashing

He's all sorts of fun to play around with because with 6 AP I've got 4 Free Heals for 300+ a pop, and a bunch of other freebie healing clickies for post battle fixing. Maximize makes BB great fun, and when things get sticky can really crank the mass heals through the roof, but then again people still look at him funny when he busts out the SoS with Divine Favor + Divine Power and just butchers things while keeping the party up.

Point I'm trying to make.....

There are no "Must Have" feats for a cleric. However there are plenty of feats that with the appropriate cleric make life easier for not only the cleric taking them, but the party that cleric happens to be in. I mean I do agree that Empower Heal is a little better for me than Empower Spell, but that may not be the same for the next guy, let it die and move on to a more constructive conversation.

[Strakeln]

There is no place in DDO where there's a need to cast spells like that, not even in "Tough" fights.

Sure, if you want to jump in the middle of 5 elite orthons and cast a Blade Barrier, then Quicken can be important. But unless there were a moderately good reason to do things like that, the feat itself is not important. The ability to cast spells while soaking a ton of damage is not helpful to most groups. It's a cool stunt, but far from a "must-have".

I disagree. Hiding behind melees healing their damage is such a waste compared to one blade barrier and the ability to heal w/o interruption.

I often see this running out to Devils, or even when battling the ancient WFs in the Twilight Forge. Or in almost every vale quest.

If there is any spell that is "required" for a cleric, it is quicken. Sure, you can do without it, but the lack of quicken on a cleric is the only sure-fire "gimp" stamp I can think of.