Pally Love? We can't even get some respect!!

[Mhykke]

Personally I have no problem with the playability of my Pali as he stands or his DPS. These will add nice flavour to him. It is a RPG, not everything is about the math. I don't need to pull out a calculator and work out the DPS of these ehancements down to the 4th decimal place before I decide if I will take them or not.

With all due respect, this is a cop out.

Other classes get serious upgrades, but you're arguing that paladins should just be happy w/ "flavor" and roleplaying?

I'm sorry, I'm not buying it. If other classes get substantial things that help them throughout an entire quest, then why should paladins be stuck w/ only a limited number of hits per rest? For "flavor?" For "roleplaying?" I'm sorry, it should be more substantial than that.

[Twerpp]

I think Pallys shouldve gotten a 20 second action point boost of all smites! Then you guys would seriously rock!

Still no fun at parties though.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Sorry Sigtrent but after your comments* in the DDOcast about paladins I am starting to listen to others.

I like the new enhancements as they do give some more options to Paladins and bring some flavour, but I would not even dare to consider it 'Love'. Where are my specialties ... ala WotM/WotA or Deepwood/Tempest. (And nobody point to the faith lines = 1 LoH every 10 mins.)

If you plan on it your Paladin can have a decent UMD score which is much better than using a LoH to raise someone.

Mod 7 Pally love aka. [edit: I don't like it]!

Paladins need spells like fighters need feats (which they do).
Spells:
Silverbeard (or my personal fave Shield of Warding)
Righteous Fury
Righteous Aura

Adding 3 spells would have been much more well recieved than what we have been offered.

*("Pallies can get the best AC in the game.." since when? without fighters/dwarven armor mastery or enough int to get combat expertise or enough dex etc. Fighters, Rangers and even Rogues regularly have better AC than paladins. The only paladin that can get a decent AC is one that is dwarven, splashed other classes and has tanked either wisdom, con or charisma and relies on items to raise them to a half-decent level)

[sigtrent]

*("Pallies can get the best AC in the game.." since when? without fighters/dwarven armor mastery or enough int to get combat expertise or enough dex etc. Fighters, Rangers and even Rogues regularly have better AC than paladins. The only paladin that can get a decent AC is one that is dwarven, splashed other classes and has tanked either wisdom, con or charisma and relies on items to raise them to a half-decent level)

Sigh... don't make me go through this again!!! I've made many posts demonstrating beyond a shadow of a doubt that paladins have the best AC potential in the game of any pure class character. Yes you must choose dwarf to beat out dwarven fighters, but you don't have to choose dwarf to beat non dwarven fighters.

A maxed out dwarven paladin can have an AC 4pts better than the very best dwarven fighter and for less AP points. 2 points of that is because daggertooth belt exists but the main reason is because of the paladin aura stacking with anything and everything and has not limitations like armor/shield mastery.

Here is the short version....
Things a Fighter can do a paladin can't: Tower Shield Mastery 1-3, Armor Mastery 3 (but if you go dwarf you can only use 4 pts of AM while using TSM. So you ither go with tower or a very very high dex for AM 6, either way it works out the same)

Things a Paladin can do that a Fighter Can't: 5pts of Aura of good (4pts prior to mod 7)

Paladin can get 5pts of AM via dwarf and daggertooth leaving them only 1pt shy of what a fighter can achieve via TSM or AM 6. So they end up wtih 4pts of gravy AC.

[Strykersz]

A maxed out dwarven paladin can have an AC 4pts better than the very best dwarven fighter and for less AP points. 2 points of that is because daggertooth belt exists but the main reason is because of the paladin aura stacking with anything and everything and has not limitations like armor/shield mastery.

2 points.

Paladin uses 13 MFP(3 base + 5 dam/fam) + 7 shield + 4 aura + 8 dex = 32
Fighter uses 14 Black Dragon armor (1 base + 6 dam + fam) + 9 mts(4 base + 3 tsm) +7 dex bonus = 30

3 when mod 7 comes out.

edit: Although realistically, the fighter splashes a level or 3 of paladin and matches the paladin, while the paladin gets no ac benefit from splashing fighter.
edit2: Even more realistically, the paladin doesn't have a dex of 26(I don't see many builds calling for level ups into dex or a starting dex of 18, do you?) and thus, evens up with the fighter that way.

[Vormaerin]

edit2: Even more realistically, the paladin doesn't have a dex of 26(I don't see many builds calling for level ups into dex or a starting dex of 18, do you?).

Don't see many fighters with a starting dex of 18 either unless they are elf or halfling... and thus don't have Dw Armor Mastery. It is true that most paladins are not built for absolute max AC like the example, but they could be.

[SteeleTrueheart]

2 points.

Paladin uses 13 MFP(3 base + 5 dam/fam) + 7 shield + 4 aura + 8 dex = 32
Fighter uses 14 Black Dragon armor (1 base + 6 dam + fam) + 9 mts(4 base + 3 tsm) +7 dex bonus = 30

3 when mod 7 comes out.

edit: Although realistically, the fighter splashes a level or 3 of paladin and matches the paladin, while the paladin gets no ac benefit from splashing fighter.
edit2: Even more realistically, the paladin doesn't have a dex of 26(I don't see many builds calling for level ups into dex or a starting dex of 18, do you?) and thus, evens up with the fighter that way.

Exactly.

I admit if you work REALLY hard you can have a paladin that can get about equal to a fighter in AC and surpass at a PHENOMENAL cost. Of course I wont mention the ease that fighters can get Combat expertise, you have admitted yourself that Int is the only stat a paladin can dump. That is also assuming that the Paladin has to be a dwarf and have access to a rare item and dump more important stats for dex and int vs nothing for a fighter. And any paladin who does that will absolutely suck everywhere else a paladin is supposed to shine. Add to that Intimidate is a cross class skill and your dps will lack for grabbing agro so why do you even need AC. A pure paladin who focuses on AC is shooting themselves in the foot.

[Emili]

Well this is the way I view what is going to happen after mod 7 and a few months after... I can see some people will keep playing thier pally's ... a few withh play with the enhancements (so-called new love)... and find it's not really near the love the other classes had received... I know my pally only shows her face when a new lvl cap comes about or when I'm sure the rest of the party can handle things without her, and I can pick off the trimmings at a chance for raid loot for her;-) Compared to the number of hours of play the other classes in my account get though she's just a change to the venue on an odd day. I think most people who have multiple classes see this too... and as such they get shelved and only come out when you're really looking for something for them... I am pretty sure this is going to be much the same as it is right now.

[Yaga_Nub]

I don't know if you remember this but Tempest, Deepwood Sniper and Arcane Archer were sort of leaked out before the devs wanted them to be. We don't know that there aren't any similar enhancements for the paladins right now. We might not know until Mod 7 is released to Risia. Even then we may not know depending on how much they want to reveal. Same goes for the spells. We didn't know about Ram's Might until close to the release to Risia.

I know we are all burnt out on the Shroud right now and are looking for something to do so we come to the forums and *****. Relax. Let's see what gets put on Risia. Actually test the stuff and THEN report back when our feelings are based upon actual use rather than pure conjecture and mathematics.

I love paladins. I deleted one of mine at 10th level because I didn't feel as if I contributed. I currently have a WF 13 P/2 F. I wanted to keep him pure but 2 extra feats and +1 STR was very hard to pass up consider we have no information about where this game is going unlike PnP where everything is spelled out in advance. I'm going to try all this stuff out and then make a decision on whether or not to delete my other paladin.

Anyway, while I was writing this I just thought about a great change to the smites that might be a little over powered but would be nice all the same. What if the enhancements add a couple of percentage points to the proc rate of the greensteel items in addition to the other crit hit benefits. That would be interesting to say the least don't you think?

[gpk]

Personally I have no problem with the playability of my Pali as he stands or his DPS. These will add nice flavour to him. It is a RPG, not everything is about the math. I don't need to pull out a calculator and work out the DPS of these ehancements down to the 4th decimal place before I decide if I will take them or not.


Or all the silent ones who see no need to discuss as they like it as it is. The ones who have seen the Devs say this is how it will be and are happy to go with the flow. I'm sure there aer plenty on both sides.

Don't like the new enhacnements, don't use them.

Yikes, I won't even respond to it as it already has.

In any event thanks for elaborating.

[Dexxaan]

*("Pallies can get the best AC in the game.." since when? without fighters/dwarven armor mastery or enough int to get combat expertise or enough dex etc. Fighters, Rangers and even Rogues regularly have better AC than paladins. The only paladin that can get a decent AC is one that is dwarven, splashed other classes and has tanked either wisdom, con or charisma and relies on items to raise them to a half-decent level)

Bruttus Chaosbane - Dwarf
12 Paladin 4 Fighter
450 HP´s (24 CON - No CON Nerf)
345 SP´s (13 WIS - No WIS Nerf)
22 CHA (No Nerf either. true I did get +3 Tome but not using an enhanement to CHA which could be used)
29 STR (30 When cap Increases as Fighter 6 reached)
21 DEX (+3 Tome but with +2 of course 20 and no effect on AC due to +3)

AC: 64 Unbuffed-Undispellable ETAC. 70 vs Giants
How many Fighters do you know can reach that # without all the Armor-Class Moons lining up, Level 16 Ranger buddy casting Barkskin, Paladin friend standing by his side and dropping haste pots as Cleric recitates?

So I beg to differ.....Paladins CAN have the highest AC, the problem is most don´t know how, or plan on it beause they´ll take a 12 DEX (with +4 item...) in order to get another +1 or +2 to their saves by increasing CHA at an extremely high Attribute Point cost.

BTW if you are an unbeliever regarding the ETAC above? Please Read Paladin Forums.

[Mhykke]

Bruttus Chaosbane - Dwarf
12 Paladin 4 Fighter
450 HP´s (24 CON - No CON Nerf)
345 SP´s (13 WIS - No WIS Nerf)
22 CHA (No Nerf either. true I did get +3 Tome but not using an enhanement to CHA which could be used)
29 STR (30 When cap Increases as Fighter 6 reached)
21 DEX (+3 Tome but with +2 of course 20 and no effect on AC due to +3)

AC: 64 Unbuffed-Undispellable ETAC. 70 vs Giants
How many Fighters do you know can reach that # without all the Armor-Class Moons lining up, Level 16 Ranger buddy casting Barkskin, Paladin friend standing by his side and dropping haste pots as Cleric recitates?

So I beg to differ.....Paladins CAN have the highest AC, the problem is most don´t know how, or plan on it beause they´ll take a 12 DEX (with +4 item...) in order to get another +1 or +2 to their saves by increasing CHA at an extremely high Attribute Point cost.

BTW if you are an unbeliever regarding the ETAC above? Please Read Paladin Forums.

Dex, to be fair, he did include the exception of a dwarf splashed w/ another class, which describes the build you're talking about.

[Dexxaan]

Dex, to be fair, he did include the exception of a dwarf splashed w/ another class, which describes the build you're talking about.

Agreed, but the post was to prove no nerf´s required to a Dwarven Paladin.

And also that the issue isn´t game rules and such, rather lack of planning and Build Know how.

[bandyman1]

Dex, to be fair, he did include the exception of a dwarf splashed w/ another class, which describes the build you're talking about.

K Mhykke.

Selyra is a pure 16th level elven paladin. You've been on enough runs with Archmagi.

Is my toon gimped? Did I dump stats to the point of uselessness in order to pull her 57 AC ( without a chattering ring or seal ).

Same question with Sharwyn. I mean, I see a lot of people on the boards who say that non-dwarven pure rogues are gimped too. Does she not contribute?

I'm seriously asking bro. You've been in enough groups with me. Do I pull my weight? Or am I a non-contributer?


I agree with ya Mhykke. Pally's can use some love. But we're in total disagreement about their level of effectiveness as things stand right now.

[gpk]

Agreed, but the post was to prove no nerf´s required to a Dwarven Paladin.

And also that the issue isn´t game rules and suh, rather lack of planning and Build Know how.

How does the paladin class specifically help you achieve higher AC? Any other AC minded build will have a higher AC in the pally aura as well. Your benefits come from multiclassing and race selection.
You rely on the very strong dwarven enhancements and base racial abilities, fighter levels not on anything that the paladin class provides (other than taking the aura with you).

If anything your examples proves a point some have been making: no reason to go past 11-12 pally levels.

[Mhykke]

K Mhykke.

Selyra is a pure 16th level elven paladin. You've been on enough runs with Archmagi Never heard of em.

Is my toon gimped Yes? Did I dump stats to the point of uselessness in order to pull her 57 AC ( without a chattering ring or seal ).

Same question with Sharwyn. I mean, I see a lot of people on the boards who say that non-dwarven pure rogues are gimped to. Does she not contribute Nope?

I'm seriously asking bro. You've been in enough groups with me. Do I pull my weight? Or am I a non-contributer Most of the times I forget you're even there!?


I agree with ya Mhykke. Pally's can use some love. But we're in total disagreement about their level of effectiveness as things stand right now.

Obviously I'm kidding w/ my responses. And I don't think we're in complete disagreement w/ the level of effectiveness of paladins. I don't think they're completely useless, which you may think that's where I'm coming from. I have a lvl 16 paladin, and i don't think he's useless.

But there is something missing when I play my high lvl paladin compared to my other classes. It just feels like there should be something more to the class at higher levels. I could've multiclassed at 11 or 12 to gain some nice abilities, but figured that a high level paladin will eventually bring something different to a party. As it stands now, they're the least desired melee class. If there's 1 melee class out of rangers/barbs/fighters/paladins that's missing on a shroud LFM, 99% of the time it'll be a paladin.

I've been vocal about it lately b/c I've been waiting for this "love" that the devs mentioned, which you and I agree they could use. I'm vocal about it b/c the changes they're proposing are severely disappointing, and now I fear that it's the extent of what they're going to do w/ the paladin class. And if that's the case, it's going to take the devs a long time to get back around to reevaluating the class.

[Dexxaan]

If anything your examples proves a point some have been making: no reason to go past 11-12 pally levels.

There is no truer statement in all the forums. And I have supported Artvan Delete who started the why go past 11-12 thread.

Boring and Non-Spicy a pure Paladin is young padawan.

[gpk]

▲ Mhykke Right .

Since the end of Mod3's enhancemenet redesign and pally re-adjustments (and mod4 DF cap) the other classes have gained new abilities, specifically high level abilities while we kept getting promised "wait till mod7".
Pallies have seen other classes gain helpful spells, enhancements and PrC-like enhancements that boost their effectiveness by measurable appreciable and in some cases overpowered quantities, much of it combat related. Those other classes have grown while pallies (especially pure) slipped further back in comparison.

Noone is asking for the Paladin to get overpowered enhancements liek Crit Rage, far from it. What we are asking forg is to at least get the same or slightly better (due to being further back to begin with) as say the Mod6 Ranger got.

What's been anounced so far is terribly underwhelming, we expected new spells and divine feats/enhancement to boost some areas where the pally class trails and to get new additions that reward pure paladins and charsima scores etc.

If there was a clearly laid out plan to level 20+ we wouldn't be having these posts, if we had a respec proper system we prolly wouldn't as much.
The situation being what it is demands responses from players who have taken the time to actually look at whats being proposed and see it for what it is.

The occasion high number is meaningless and terrible spell choices like Divine Sacrifice implemented in a terrible way with no regard to DDO standards is insult to injury; especially after there have been countlesss posts with actual good spell suggestions and feats.

It's been a year since the pally class started getting re-adjusted, nerfed, and ignored while other classes keep gettign strong and useful abilities, mod 7 was the promised "pally love" mod, from what the devs have told us so far it's soon to be a broken promise.

[Strykersz]

Don't see many fighters with a starting dex of 18 either unless they are elf or halfling... and thus don't have Dw Armor Mastery. It is true that most paladins are not built for absolute max AC like the example, but they could be.

The fighters don't need an 18 starting dex? 16+2 tome + 6 item = 24 (a +7 bonus) which caps their dex for both a mts and black dragon plate.

[Dexxaan]

The fighters don't need an 18 starting dex? 16+2 tome + 6 item = 24 (a +7 bonus) which caps their dex for both a mts and black dragon plate.

The most DEX bonus the previously mentioned Fighter can get from Black Dragonplate Armor is +4. (DWARVES EXCLUDED OF COURSE)

Hasty thread replies bring out some big whoppers dont´they......