WF Hate :(

[Ghoste]

Maybe, Borr. I haven't done the math on it again since I deleted that guy. WF don't have the toughness line of enhancements though, so how do you think they could be the same?

He never made the comparison between dwarf and wf, you did. He was never arguing they were the same. You're the one who started arguing they weren't...so what?

[Borror0]

WF for a 14b/2f warchanter:

104 Base
20 Heroic Durability
10 Draconic Vitality
30 Greater False Life
23 Minos Legend
45 (Shroud)
18 Toughness
144 Consitution
394 HP

Not 400, but not so far. Anything over 350 HP is very respectable to me when you've got Stoneskin and Displacement always on (and you can Heal/Recontruct yourself).

[Aspenor]

Not 400, but not so far. Anything around 250 hit points is very acceptable to me when you've got Stoneskin and Displacement always on and can cast full heals/reconstructs on yourself..

fixed? maybe?

[Borror0]

fixed? maybe?

Yeah, the full heals and reconstructs are what I meant, as for 250... well I have not the experience of that low HP to speak.

[Cowdenicus]

As i recall my wf bard started with a 16 con

[dragnmoon]

As i recall my wf bard started with a 16 con

I am still trying to get pass the idea that you made something other then a cleric....

[Aspenor]

Yeah, the full heals and reconstructs are what I meant, as for 250... well I have not the experience of that low HP to speak.

it's not *optimal* but it is definitely very feasible and not all that much of a strain. My rogue has 206 and melees the pit fiend just fine, she just tumbles out and casts a full heal on herself and tumbles back in until the blades are too close.

[Borror0]

As i recall my wf bard started with a 16 con

16 base + 2 Rage + 2 Enhancement +6 Item + 2 Tome = 28

So yeah, 144 Con HP

[Gunga]

WF for a 14b/2f warchanter:

104 Base
20 Heroic Durability
10 Draconic Vitality
30 Greater False Life
23 Minos Legend
45 (Shroud)
18 Toughness
144 Consitution
394 HP

Not 400, but not so far. Anything over 350 HP is very respectable to me when you've got Stoneskin and Displacement always on (and you can Heal/Recontruct yourself).

Gotcha...those hps look great. Some of those numbers look off to me...maybe asp fixed them. I didn't find myself having endless mana with a low cha, and I didn't have that many hps. Another problem I ran into was I couldnt heal myself very well...If i failed a reconstruct scroll I was outta luck.

[Cowdenicus]

Gotcha...those hps look great. Some of those numbers look off to me...maybe asp fixed them. I didn't find myself having endless mana with a low cha, and I didn't have that many hps. Another problem I ran into was I couldnt heal myself very well...If i failed a reconstruct scroll I was outta luck.

True but one could make the neg pos pos/neg sp goggles. On getting hit you have a chance to regen sp, +6 wis, +300 sp, and +5 umd.

[Borror0]

I didn't find myself having endless mana with a low cha

Really?

IVe never ran out of SP, ever. I keep Displacing myself all the time without any issue.

[Gunga]

Really?

IVe never ran out of SP, ever. I keep Displacing myself all the time without any issue.

Nice. I deleted him before Warchanters were sought after in the new raid...never even got to the greensteel items with him. I forget what my cha was, but it was really low because I dumped stat pts into str and con with a splash into dex (total waste). I had a 30 str and could do lots of damage, but I also took way too much damage. This is really what kept me from putting more time into him.

[Gunga]

True but one could make the neg pos pos/neg sp goggles. On getting hit you have a chance to regen sp, +6 wis, +300 sp, and +5 umd.

Yep, true. Sounds like borr has a nice build...he may have some pointers for you. All I can say is it's not so obvious a build...it takes some careful planning to make it viable at high level. GL withit though if you decide to level him, man.

[Delt]

LoL @ portions of this thread...

"I'm not your friend, buddy!"

"I'm not your buddy, guy!"

"I'm not your guy, friend!"

Nice. I deleted him before Warchanters were sought after in the new raid...never even got to the greensteel items with him. I forget what my cha was, but it was really low because I dumped stat pts into str and con with a splash into dex (total waste). I had a 30 str and could do lots of damage, but I also took way too much damage. This is really what kept me from putting more time into him.

I did the same thing (gimply threw some extra points into DEX to maximize Mithril Body, both of which were **** poor ideas. Feat was swapped out, dex was cried over...but at least I have the option of TWF later when I snag a +3 dex tome)..but I never found I took much damage perma-displaced. Granted, things that wouldn't hit my other melee's except on a 1 hit my WF bard more often (which annoyed me), but in elite end game content it all evens out. I'm also a tad surprised you couldn't hit 40 UMD easily for 100% reconstruct...GH and a few easily obtainable items (optional feat if you have bad luck with raid loot), and a WF bard with 19 ranks can hit 40 even when dumping CHA.

I think you underestimate the viability of WC melee. It can be done and it needs to be played a little smarter than your average barb/fighter (that relies on outside healing). I've said before that the main failing of most battlebard attempts is low HP - I'd bet that was your main issue. My bard can hit 450+/550+ raged (and if I didn't go WF for flavor and went Dwarf instead, it would be sick), but people tell me it's cheating because I have a heavy barbarian splash...fair enough, but it's still HP that defines the ability to frontline melee/tank in DDO's current end game.

For the record, I agree with you that battlebards simply aren't optimal party players. They'll never reach the DPS output of a well built TWF barbarian with equal buffs. They'll never have equal durability and HP of that barbarian either. But remember, it takes 3 classes to make that barbarian excel...48 levels of benefit vs 16. It's not a fair comparison. Even if that battlebard is ~80% effectiveness in all 3 roles (DPS, tank, buffer/healer), you have to appreciate that kinda of versatility and what it adds to a party.

[Hvymetal]

Now before we got talking about Warchanters and then the thread got really interesting I believe the subject war Warforged hate Cow has recently been running into?

My theory is returing players. There seems to be many many returning players lately & those sort of attitudes vrs. Warforged were rampant back then. I have been playing Warforged off and on since headstart & times were very tough and it's taken a lot of hard work and dedicated Warforged players to turn some of that around.

Unfortunatly I get the feeling that some of the returning players haven't caught on yet.

[alchilito]

WF rule Cowdenicus

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