Shroud Weapons just made two great fighter feats expire

[Twerpp]

That is if they haven't already met their expiration date...

Ok so now our weapons have an extra 10 dice or so on our crits...how many of you are still running weapon spec/grtr weapon spec on your fighters? I think it needs an enhancement line at high levels to stay viable or a re-look at the feat entirely. +2 damage per feat is not very rewarding when elite vermin has 800hp and 3/4 bab classes can farm for weapons with more dice than Vegas.

I only see two possible but not really even that great reasons to keep this around:

1. Weapon spec +2 damage is nice at lower levels

2. You are using picks, where +4 damage equals +16 damage on a crit (ok if you built purely for deathnip this is a good reason)

Dear devs can you PUUUH-LLEAASE look at these feats or give us some new ones? This is no longer scaled correctly by its pure PnP implementation you need to DDO-ify it.

[maddmatt70]

Greater weapon spec is still viable. Yeah good point it is getting diluted, but it is still good to have for every pure fighter. having an additional +4 to damage is comparable to 2 rangers favored enemy, but the exception is it works on everybody. Are you also saying favored enemy isnt worth it? With the number of feats a pure fighter or close to pure fighter gets they might as well pick it up. It is especially nice for twf fighters as the damage applies to each hand.

I do agree with you that either superior two weapon specialization should come into being and/or some sort of enhancement to weapon specialization.

[Snoggy]

With the number of feats a pure fighter or close to pure fighter gets they might as well pick it up.

That's the important part right there. There simply aren't that many choices for class based feats. What other options are really there? And are they more meaningful a feat investment than this?

The answer to my second question is at best "not really" at worst "no."

[Strykersz]

It's supposed to be comparable to Barb Rage. It is(barb's get an additional +1 to damage but rage should have enough penalties attached to balance it out) except for the fact that they added crit rage and nothing comparable for fighters.

[Angelus_dead]

Ok so now our weapons have an extra 10 dice or so on our crits...how many of you are still running weapon spec/grtr weapon spec on your fighters? I think it needs an enhancement line at high levels to stay viable or a re-look at the feat entirely. +2 damage per feat is not very rewarding when elite vermin has 800hp and 3/4 bab classes can farm for weapons with more dice than Vegas.

There's nothing wrong with those feats. Weapon Spec is fine.

A fighter has buckets of extra feats, so spending a few of them on +2 damage is perfectly fine. Hey, if there were more feats like Superior Weapon Spec and Amazing Weapon Spec to give additional +2 damages, fighters would willingly spend feats on them too.

The problems with DDO fighters are
A) Several existing combat feats aren't good enough
B) Several good D&D feats are missing
C) No nice high-level enhancements

[Laith]

if anything killed the purpose of a fighter's bonus feats, it was the duration/power of barbarian rage.

the choices fighters have just can't compete.

odds are though, fighters are next up for "loving". we'll see how that goes...

[Twerpp]

That's the important part right there. There simply aren't that many choices for class based feats. What other options are really there? And are they more meaningful a feat investment than this?

The answer to my second question is at best "not really" at worst "no."

Yeah I hear that, and no fighter love in sight or mention of any new feats let alone feats exclusive to fighters.

MadMatt I hear ya on favored enemy but that's a little different. There are no pre-reqs other than being a ranger, there are two pre-reqs for grtr weap spec. Also they do have an enhancement line and even had it prior to the insane hp inflation (back then mob hp inflation was only "outrageous", it hadn't yet reached "insane", or the previous mods "ludicrous"). Favored enemy is great because it helps a ranger metagame, most rangers favored enemies change. Every. Single. Mod.

And yep Stryker DDO ganked and pimped out like a cheap ho that which was once an awesome fighter prestige class with probably the most comprehensive pre-req list of feats...and gave it to the Barbarian for the cost of.....6 AP? Nice.

It would be nice if they at least would offer us at least the crit multiplier if not range, and I would be happy to even attune it to only one specific weapon, not the whole range of either slash or pierce etc like how they implemented improved crit.

[Twerpp]

There's nothing wrong with those feats. Weapon Spec is fine.

A fighter has buckets of extra feats, so spending a few of them on +2 damage is perfectly fine. Hey, if there were more feats like Superior Weapon Spec and Amazing Weapon Spec to give additional +2 damages, fighters would willingly spend feats on them too.

The problems with DDO fighters are
A) Several existing combat feats aren't good enough
B) Several good D&D feats are missing
C) No nice high-level enhancements

I second all that and still continue to champion my existing claim. +4 to damage at the cost of 2 feats is a paltry if not pathetic addition to a +5 acid of acid bursting of acid blasting of acidic spraying of acidic immersion of 30% chance of cloudy with chance of acidic showers greatsword. Teh problem is as you and some others have noted, we ain't got **** else to spend our feats on! Slicing anyone?

[Dungnmaster001]

Yeah I hear that, and no fighter love in sight or mention of any new feats let alone feats exclusive to fighters.

That's because they've been working on Pally stuff for this mod. Next mod I'm betting will be all about fighters. New enhancements at the least and probably new feats also. They likely just didn't want to split their attention between too many classes for one mod. Rogues and Pallys got the love this time, Fighters are about due now. So far we've gotten improvements to Bards; Rangers, Rogues, and Paladins...Casters are already sickeningly powerful so I'm betting they get looked at last.

Also a note about feats exclusive to fighters. I'm wholeheartedly AGAINST this. 3.5 made very few things exclusive to one class over another for a reason. Now making new feats that qualify as fighter bonus feats: good, Making feats that have multiple feat pre-reqs (i.e. whirlwind attack): fine, but feats aren't meant to be exclusive to one class. Among the few exceptions are the weapon specialization line, and that was only because fighters were among the only pure melee class that had no way to boost damage output (i.e. barbs rage, paladins smite evil, etc)

just my 2c

[maddmatt70]

It would be nice if they at least would offer us at least the crit multiplier if not range, and I would be happy to even attune it to only one specific weapon, not the whole range of either slash or pierce etc like how they implemented improved crit.

I am heavily against a crit range bonus to fighters. I think classes should be different and have different + and -s associated with them. Barbarians are the best critters in ddo which is fine with me. The devs are trying to make pallys a 5-6 attack specialist in other words the best dps over a 15-20 sec period starting with the new mod (the benefits of this are twofold high dps and gathers aggro on in general a high ac char) - they have not succeeded yet in that goal as the pallys can attest. Rogues get the sneak damage, one shot kill effects, etc. and Rangers are the best against certain enemies and have a general attack speed bonus and are great with ranged combat. So where does this leave fighters? In my opinion the fighter's dps is all about consistency with a specific weapon type (slash, bludgeon, and pierce) against every type of opponent whether the opponent is uncrittable, has heavy fort, isnt favored, isnt evil, etc. The fighter doesn't always translate in ddo's new release a mod every 3 months formula, but the goal should be to just increase a fighter damage in general with the favored weapon type and I would prefer a combination of feats and enhancements because the mini prestige classes are exciting and fun. For instance, an enhancment line which provides +4 to damage and +1 to hit with greater weapon specialization weapons and some sort of flavor like for instance proficiency with all exotic slashing weapons if the character has greater weapon specialization slashing.

[Snoggy]

my opinion the fighter's dps is all about consistency with a specific weapon type (slash, bludgeon, and pierce) against every type of opponent whether the opponent is uncrittable, has heavy fort, isnt favored, isnt evil, etc. The fighter doesn't always translate in ddo's new release a mod every 3 months formula, but the goal should be to just increase a fighter damage in general with the favored weapon type and I would prefer a combination of feats and enhancements because the mini prestige classes are exciting and fun. For instance, an enhancment line which provides +4 to damage and +1 to hit with greater weapon specialization weapons and some sort of flavor like for instance proficiency with all exotic slashing weapons if the character has greater weapon specialization slashing.

Interesting concept. But does that example you give really compete with critical rage? If not, then is it really helping to differentiate fighters as a unique but interesting alternative ... or is it just more fluff but nothing meaty enough to get melee fans to move away from the lockjaw mindset of barbarians = the be all end all?

[maddmatt70]

Interesting concept. But does that example you give really compete with critical rage? If not, then is it really helping to differentiate fighters as a unique but interesting alternative ... or is it just more fluff but nothing meaty enough to get melee fans to move away from the lockjaw mindset of barbarians = the be all end all?

Sure it does crank out the numbers yourself. Regardless there will be more monsters with fortification in the future (we are talking about both high level mobs and end bosses) and there are really annoying spells like calm emotions which could see an introduction into the game at any point.

[Snoggy]

Sure it does crank out the numbers yourself. Regardless there will be more monsters with fortification in the future (we are talking about both high level mobs and end bosses) and there are really annoying spells like calm emotions which could see an introduction into the game at any point.

I guess your sales pitch isn't really hooking me. You state:

" I think classes should be different and have different + and -s associated with them."

But after listing a whole bunch of interesting and attractive roles for the other melee classes, you offer fighters up as, what I read to be ... masters of plain jane vanilla damage.

Not very appealing in form or function. Especially in the end-game.

[maddmatt70]

I guess your sales pitch isn't really hooking me. You state:

" I think classes should be different and have different + and -s associated with them."

But after listing a whole bunch of interesting and attractive roles for the other melee classes, you offer fighters up as, what I read to be ... masters of plain jane vanilla damage.

Not very appealing in form or function. Especially in the end-game.

If I am looking for a class to fill out a party on a raid or quest where I dont know what is going to happen the fighter's role as I have outlined is very powerful and quite frankly the best melee class. I could take a risk and grab a barbarian but the mobs might have fortification or not be a favored enemy for the ranger, etc. A fighter can also turtle up in theory and go high ac. Another instance where a fighter is potentially very powerful is a heavily mixed mob dungeon - an example of this was the litany of dead pre-raid (casters recalling ruined that quest but that is another story). You know what you get when you choose a fighter for a party when you choose ranger you have no clue and the same goes to a lesser extent for barbarian.

In the end after listening to you I ask why do you have a fighter or plan to build one if you find the other classes more attractive build one of those. I like my fighter who can get an ac in the 55ish if need be, has spring attack and all the two weapon feats for very nice dps, has fighter haste boost for the big fights and just in general, and if I want could have multiple crit weapons or alot more tactical feats and enhancements (stunning blow comes to mind). Are fighters in need of some fun new toys like some of the other classes have received must undoubtably, but keep them inline with what a fighter does best.

[Twerpp]

Matt just because the mobs have fort doesn't mean Crit Rage barbs are any less effective in your group...NOT> AT> ALL! Smiting, banishing, bursting, blasting etc all proc on crits whether or not the target is immune to crits.

I'll leave it to someone else to defend whatever it was you were saying about rangers though

[maddmatt70]

Matt just because the mobs have fort doesn't mean Crit Rage barbs are any less effective in your group...NOT> AT> ALL! Smiting, banishing, bursting, blasting etc all proc on crits whether or not the target is immune to crits.

I'll leave it to someone else to defend whatever it was you were saying about rangers though

True, but alot of those saveable effects you are talking about and you can see the difference on vale/shroud quests on elite vs. normal in general terms of the mobs being able to save. Blasting/bursting damage, yet but this is confined to x amount of damage and doesnt do nearly the same in ratio terms to a barb's general damage crit multiplier.

[maddmatt70]

A couple other points I would just like to add is the mini prestige class I proposed is only one of the three I think they should have in there and that there should be new fighter feats like superior weapon specialization. The other two mini prestige classes are the following: 1. a fighter prestige class which gives lets say +3 to ac, a + 5 bonus to intimidate checks, and 10% stackable miss chance, 2: most importantly a fighter tactic prestige class which gives a +3 bonus to fighter tactics and the key benefit is that a diluted version of the normal fighter tactics works on previously immune red names.

Fighter tactics have really gradually over time disappeared from the game, yes you will see the very rare fighter trip and at times see the stunning blows being thrown on mobs, but it isn't even close to what it was before. My guildie, grevan, is a great example of the disappearance of fighter tactics. He is known for his wizard but back in old school khyber days he was also known for having one of the best tactical fighters who was particularly versed in the trip attack. Well they nerfed fighter tactics and gradually the trip and other tactics has disappeared from his repertoire. At the time fighters were a super powerful class so the red named nerf was not felt as painfully as it would have been and what it really is today is an overnerf.

What they should do is give fighters the chance to do a limited tactic against red names again. My guildie made a barbarian this mod and has recently started playing his fighter less and less this mod yeah he is trying out the sweet barbs dps, but in my mind there is something wrong with that picture.

[nbhs275]

That is if they haven't already met their expiration date...

Ok so now our weapons have an extra 10 dice or so on our crits...how many of you are still running weapon spec/grtr weapon spec on your fighters? I think it needs an enhancement line at high levels to stay viable or a re-look at the feat entirely. +2 damage per feat is not very rewarding when elite vermin has 800hp and 3/4 bab classes can farm for weapons with more dice than Vegas.

I only see two possible but not really even that great reasons to keep this around:

1. Weapon spec +2 damage is nice at lower levels

2. You are using picks, where +4 damage equals +16 damage on a crit (ok if you built purely for deathnip this is a good reason)

Dear devs can you PUUUH-LLEAASE look at these feats or give us some new ones? This is no longer scaled correctly by its pure PnP implementation you need to DDO-ify it.

Ok, lets see here. 4 damage on a 1 handed weapon is equal to 8 str. on an offhand weapon, its 16. Potent feats. Another fun fact.

WF fighter, with these feats, PA, and some enhancments gets +12/ +12 damage in each hand. Considerable damage. Add in 38ish strength, and good +5 khopeshs and your going to be in good shape.

Anything that this other classes can get, you can two. The difference is that the pure fighter gets another bonus on ALL his weapons.

[Snoggy]

If I am looking for a class to fill out a party on a raid or quest where I dont know what is going to happen

So ... first time in, you pick a fighter up. But the second time and all additional times (since you now know what is going to happen) you pick something else?

Like I said, your sales pitch isn't winning me over here.

I could take a risk and grab a barbarian but the mobs might have fortification or not be a favored enemy for the ranger, etc.

A two-handed focused barbarian I think could serve you. They're still somewhat popular?

In the end after listening to you I ask why do you have a fighter or plan to build one if you find the other classes more attractive build one of those.

What?

I read your idea on how to improve the fighter class. I wasn't sold on it. I don't see how you're improving the fighter in an interesting way. I'd like either some serious improvements to defense (so that when I use the new intimidate mechanics, I can survive an alpha strike by a mob of angry critters), or something comprable in offense to what other classes are getting.

Plain vanilla flavor isn't what I want for my fighter. And that's what your idea offers. Why do I have a fighter? To hit things and to shield block.

I like my fighter who can get an ac in the 55ish if need be, has spring attack and all the two weapon feats for very nice dps, has fighter haste boost for the big fights and just in general, and if I want could have multiple crit weapons or alot more tactical feats and enhancements (stunning blow comes to mind). Are fighters in need of some fun new toys like some of the other classes have received must undoubtably, but keep them inline with what a fighter does best.

I've had Stunning Blow for quite some time now. I'm too lazy to respec out of it. This is because there really isn't much to replace it with that is at all appealing. But that doesn't change the fact that it's a sub-par feat in today's game. Extremely disappointing and I wouldn't recommend anyone building a fighter to bother with it.

Fighters could use new toys. I'm just not sure I agree with your assessment of what fighters do best. You seem to suggest your fighter does "very nice DPS" but you're unwilling to consider giving fighters feats or enhancements (like critical rage) that will help amplify that DPS in a unique, interesting way, and instead focus on more of the same old plain stuff they've been given in the past (Weapon Spec). Not sure that I see that as a new toy in any way shape or form, and certainly not a very prestigious prestige enhancement.

[QuantumFX]

New Enhancement chains?

Improved Weapon Specialization: (Separate into lines)
1 AP, Fighter: 7, Requires Weapon Specialization, adds +1 damage to weapon damage
2 AP, Fighter: 9, Requires Weapon Specialization, adds +2 damage to weapon damage

Improved Greater Weapon Specialization: (Separate into lines)
1 AP, Fighter: 15, Requires Greater Weapon Specialization, adds +1 damage to weapon damage
2 AP, Fighter: 18, Requires Greater Weapon Specialization, adds +2 damage to weapon damage

Less AP intensive that favored enemy but more feat/fighter level intensive for a total of +8 damage.