Divine Sacrafice and Exalted Smite: Is it worth it?

[RavenStormclaw]

Here's my thought and my question. Do you think that Exhalted Smite and Divine Sacrafice will stack with each other? In other words Divine sacrafice III will give you 9d6 holy damage and +1 to your critical multiplier and Exhalted smite 4 will give +2 to each of threat range and multiplier. So a khopesh wielding Paladin would have a threat range of 17-20 increase to 15-20 if you have improved critical and +6 crit multiplier(3 from the weapon + 1 from divine sacrafice 3 and +2 from exhalted smite 4). These seem to add up to some really sick numbers. If they hit of course. So if they do stack do you guys think it will be worth it to have to go to Pali 18 to get Exalted smite 4?

[Mhykke]

Honestly,
W/ the reduction in extra smites, I'd be hesitant to base a character staying pure based on these enhancements alone.

Don't get me wrong, it's some nice flavor to paladins, but would've been the icing to a way of.... enhancement line, or new spells/feats.

On its own, it's still not consistent enough for me. It's a nice crit here and there, but it is limited to 8 times, w/ 2 second intervals, and regenning not starting until 90 seconds after 1st one used.

[bigal4458]

It will certainly be nast w/ a SoS if they all stack..... I couldn't imagine some of those numbers.....however, it still only goes so far to make the Paladin's overall more desired in groups. I think the rez ability may help, and they are all improvements, but I think there still needs to be a little more looked at.

[gpk]

Once again it's important not to be sucked in by possible large crits; what matters is the contribution made to a quest or a higher level boss fight.

A few big numbers here and there are meaningless and only serve to sucker in a few players suffering from crit-itis into thinking "wow this is awesome!".

The regening smites and tier 1-2 sacrifices still don't really amount to much and cost is way still too high in many aspects.

[llevenbaxx]

Still glad I have 4(an only 4 levels of ftr). It will be nice for general adventuring if DS and the Exalted smite can be used in conjunction but its not going to make me one ioda(sp?) more welcome in shroud groups or more desired for end boss fights...

Like gpk keeps saying we need that one spell/feat that is persistent(not another 1 min/cast) that gives palys that sustained boost to get us out of the DPS basement.

[Geonis]

No.

[Darth_Sizzle]

They will not stack, they will be (like smite currently is) push button attacks. I will be using the hell out of both of these.

Currently with the SoS I can crit on a smite for 315+

I can't wait to see what I can do with these

and now with the re-gen every 90 seconds I can use these throughout the entire quest.

[QuantumFX]

Good question. From reading Eladrin's posts I think it will work together. Now, the next question is will paladins suffer from clickie lag?

[gpk]

They will not stack, they will be (like smite currently is) push button attacks. I will be using the hell out of both of these.

Currently with the SoS I can crit on a smite for 315+

I can't wait to see what I can do with these

and now with the re-gen every 90 seconds I can use these throughout the entire quest.

So 1-3 out of your 4-8 base smites crit's for over 300, 2-3 of you regenerated exalted smite will crit for oh let's say 500 even.
How do you feel this tiny amount of individual swings contributes in a quest or is at all meaningfull?

[Darth_Sizzle]

So 1-3 out of your 4-8 base smites crit's for over 300, 2-3 of you regenerated exalted smite will crit for oh let's say 500 even.
How do you feel this tiny amount of individual swings contributes in a quest or is at all meaningfull?

Actually, I currently have 10. After the update I will have 5 that regen. Going from a x3 to a x5 will put me at oh lets say more like 545. Are you actually asking me how more dps contributes to a quest? Would it be better if I had no extra DPS?

[GeneralDiomedes]

Here's a nice feat from this book I just picked up

Divine Justice

As a swift action, spend on of your turn or rebuke undead attempts to deal an extra 2d6 points of damage with all your successful melee attacks against evil outsiders until the end of the round. In addition, evil outsiders struck by one of your attacks while you are using this feat must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Cha modifier) or be shaken for 1 minute.

I think this could be extended to a short duration spell like ability, say 6 seconds per paladin level or something.

[gpk]

Actually, I currently have 10. After the update I will have 5 that regen. Going from a x3 to a x5 will put me at oh lets say more like 545. Are you actually asking me how more dps contributes to a quest? Would it be better if I had no extra DPS?

It would make no noticeable difference at all, the smites even with regen ever 90 secs even if they ALL crit are still just to few to matter at all in a DDO quest or raid.

It's a trap, getting wowed by a possible high number leads you to not look at how often it can actually happen and against how many and which mobs.

This is not extra dps, it hardly even qualifies as burst DPS, it's more like sneeze DPS.

[Strykersz]

Actually, I currently have 10. After the update I will have 5 that regen. Going from a x3 to a x5 will put me at oh lets say more like 545. Are you actually asking me how more dps contributes to a quest? Would it be better if I had no extra DPS?

Realistically, if you're willing to spend 6 ap on ~.6 dps, it probably would be better if you had no extra dps.

[Darth_Sizzle]

It would make no noticeable difference at all, the smites even with regen ever 90 secs even if they ALL crit are still just to few to matter at all in a DDO quest or raid.

It's a trap, getting wowed by a possible high number leads you to not look at how often it can actually happen and against how many and which mobs.

This is not extra dps, it hardly even qualifies as burst DPS, it's more like sneeze DPS.

That possibility of a high number, yea it would be a 35% chance (13-20 crit range), thats a pretty good chance.

Let's examine:

Say a quest takes 45 mins, out of that let's say I'm swinging for 30 mins. The smite cool down is (I believe) 6 seconds to start, so to burn all 5 smites would take me approx 30 seconds, then I have to wait 7.5 mins for them to all regen. If I do this throughout the quest I should get 18 smites. With a 35% chance to get a crit; that means I should get, on average, 6 crits that each do 400 pts more damage than a normal crit - that equals 2,400 extra damage. Plus the 12 smites that dont crit still add 70+ points of damage each - that equals another 840 extra damage. So, we're looking at a total of 3,240 extra damage (with the possibility of alot more).

[Strykersz]

That possibility of a high number, yea it would be a 35% chance (13-20 crit range), thats a pretty good chance.

Let's examine:

Say a quest takes 45 mins, out of that let's say I'm swinging for 30 mins. The smite cool down is (I believe) 6 seconds to start, so to burn all 5 smites would take me approx 30 seconds, then I have to wait 7.5 mins for them to all regen. If I do this throughout the quest I should get 18 smites. With a 35% chance to get a crit; that means I should get, on average, 6 crits that each do 400 pts more damage than a normal crit - that equals 2,400 extra damage. Plus the 12 smites that dont crit still add 70+ points of damage each - that equals another 840 extra damage. So, we're looking at a total of 3,240 extra damage (with the possibility of alot more).

So over the course of 30 minutes of fighting, your smites equal about 30 seconds of barb/ranger damage?

edit: It sounds like you plan on taking Exalted Smiting 3. I feel compelled to inform you that it has a pre-req of Extra Smite 4 which means you're spending 16 ap total for that 30 seconds of barb dps, although with the extra 4 smites it might go up to 35 seconds(assumed 18, you'll end up with 22 so a little less than a ~25% increase).

edit2: I hate the belabor this point, but you really need to do the math to realize how badly paladins are getting screwed in comparison to ranger/caster/rogue/barb love

[Cyr]

/sigh...again

If you do not think your pali will gain any benefit from the new lines of enhancements then do not take them. If all you get is extra aura and some AP back and regenerating smites then you have still gained.

Extra DPS is extra dps...burst dps is important in DDO last time I checked the red/purple names were the time when you had to pull out the big guns so to speak. So faster timers and more damage sounds like good things to me. Alot of people have been ignoring the timer and regen issue when talking about the modifications to pali's and those are key. The timer let's you do more dps in short intervals against boss mobs and the regen lets you use more smites per shrine. Note: This regeneration of smites will be the ONLY time that a class ability regenerates without a shrine that I am aware of. So let's say an average quest has a shrine every 5 mintues this grants 3 extra uses. Now in the tougher quests...the ones where you have a really shaky pug group and they wanted to do it on elite the shrines take let's say 15 minutes to get to...that is an extra 10 uses. That is some serious trash mob cleanup potential. Now let's take the big case currently...you are fighting Harry in part 5 on elite...everyone else in the party has run out rages and spell points...clerics are on scrolls/your casters are rightly using force missile wands...your rangers are complaining that they could only hold 2500 silver arrows in their inventory and that only allowed them to pick up one piece of loot ...you have as many smites sitting there as you have patience and the cleric has scrolls for you. Okay I admit an extreme case, but it happens.

Now let's say it is a nice normal part 5. You used two smites to rip apart the gnoll. They are back by the time Harry comes down. You have full smitting potential...the fight is going to last a few minutes even with a good group so you'll get a few more smites in then your 'total per shrine'. You will do more damage...period. If you are smart enough to truly understand the usefulness of the divine sacrifice line you will be spamming those every chance you get because the clerics are overhealing you with their heal spells anyways or the mass heals they are throwing on the barbs and one SP a shot is hardly going to drain your mana pool dangerously.

[gpk]

/sigh...again

If you do not think your pali will gain any benefit from the new lines of enhancements then do not take them. If all you get is extra aura and some AP back and regenerating smites then you have still gained.

Extra DPS is extra dps...burst dps is important in DDO last time I checked the red/purple names were the time when you had to pull out the big guns so to speak. So faster timers and more damage sounds like good things to me. Alot of people have been ignoring the timer and regen issue when talking about the modifications to pali's and those are key [...]

Now let's say it is a nice normal part 5. You used two smites to rip apart the gnoll. They are back by the time Harry comes down. You have full smitting potential...the fight is going to last a few minutes even with a good group so you'll get a few more smites in then your 'total per shrine'. You will do more damage...period. If you are smart enough to truly understand the usefulness of the divine sacrifice line you will be spamming those every chance you get because the clerics are overhealing you with their heal spells anyways or the mass heals they are throwing on the barbs and one SP a shot is hardly going to drain your mana pool dangerously.

Would you consider 0.1% "extra" DPS to really be "extra" ? We ARE factoring in the 90 second regens as well.
What you don't appear to be factoring in is the number of mobs you face with their crazy HPs and the number of times you and your teammates swing.

Smite Evils vs any mini-boss, boss or raid boss is laughable, the contribution is so tiny that for all intent and purpose it's non-existant.
And really the pit fiend healbot gnolls? Who cares about those, they're trash mobs that usually a caster kills before your 1st swing even finishes. LOL 2 smites on gnol? That's just a terrible argument.

It's important to be smart enough yes, it's important to realize the meager amount of swings with possible high crits is meaningless in a high level DDO context.

As for Divine Sacrifice not only is it a poor spell choice to begin with, but it hasn't been properly adjusted to DDO levels and suffers from being a one shot deal wich further reduces it's effectiveness, potentially by very large chunks. The irony is that you see it as a boss fight tool, the devs intend it as a a tool for "easier fights".

Do you agree with the devs that it's for "easier fights"? How does the spell compare to Ram's Might or Righteous Fury in your eyes?

True "easy fight" DPS boost comes from Righteous Fury, true "Burst DPS" comes from Divine Might (a la NwN or 30 second flat duration), bastardized Divine Sacrifices and curiously underpowered and overfused Exalted Smites don't come even close.

If the intent is to focus on Smite Evil for burst DPS then it must be a multi-second duration for it to actually contribute to short term burst damage versus a DDO mob, mini-boss, boss or raid boss.

Maybe we're all looking at it all wrong, maybe for smite evils to actually be meaningful there should be a flat base damage and much more extra damage when used against a higher CR mob, or extra boost when used againt an orange, red or purple named boss. Maybe it should "tag" the boss mob and do more damage and last longer against said mob, enough for the numbers to actually add up and matter.
It would be acceptable to (slighly?) surpass the overall bonus provided by Ram's Might against bosses, you're only doing burst damage to a bossafterall.

P.S. since the convo is being spread a bit thin across some other threads, for interest's sake try reading this little thread buried in the Pally class section http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=142980

[Accelerando]

Smite Evils vs any mini-boss, boss or raid boss is laughable, the contribution is so tiny that for all intent and purpose it's non-existant.

Sorry dude this is just incorrect. I keep arguing with you but it is obvious you just don't have a Paladin.

But at least you didn't say intensive purposes.

[gpk]

Sorry dude this is just incorrect. I keep arguing with you but it is obvious you just don't have a Paladin.

But at least you didn't say intensive purposes.

LMAO I don't have a paladin? I was gonna ask you the same thing.

Please then, help us understand since the burden of proof is now on you.

Type out how many swings you get with various weapons, add up the damage, damage from crits, and then compare to a boss mob from any vale quest.
Then please list out all the boss mobs, how many and which you will encounter in between shrines and multiples 90 second regens .

I anxiously await your detailed post.

[gpk]

Hmm someone suggested I compare Exalted Smite 3 to a little tier1 Fighters (rog) haste boost 1 (+15% attack speed)

After some quick math I'm getting some pretty alarming numbers over 160 seconds (5 boosts +in between cooldowns)
I'll do more awake math tomorrow time permitting.

Does anyone else care to do some math? I'm looking at you Accelerando.