Weekly Dev Activities 04/14/08

[Naso24]

"Sound Burst has had its spell description changed to reflect the fact that the stun effect can be resisted using Spell resistance. "

It is still not accurate. Either the word "stun" should be removed, or the spells should be modified so enemies are susceptible to auto-crits, just like stunning blow or greater shout.

[Turial]

Because if something regened every 10-20 minutes, then it would mean it would have had to have been a cleric ability.

LOL....poor cowdenicus. You know one day they will fix it, especially now that they should relook at the faith lines because one of the lines was replaced with something else on the paladin side.

[Delzon]

hmmm thought it says it pretty well must be a sneak attack covered by diplo, must be stealthed thats your 2nd key, the attack itself is your third key.

granted i havent used nor have any of us but according to the wording thats all thats required

Kind of a dumb implimentation at this point though, why bother?

Run up...sneak mode(even though he already heard you clopping up behind him?)... death attack. Whats the point? This is prolly exactly how its going to go down too. Its a technicality in the chain of events, nothing more. Jus makes it less fun to use.


This needs to be reconsidered...

I think diplo is a single target so if you go into a room with 4 mobs and diplo 1 the other 3 will beat on you breaking your stealth attack.
Having to be in stealth also breaks away from p&p D&D, where you only need to be flanking a mob to sneak attack but since that is harder in DDO it is not having agro. Since they have ways to increase your attack when flanking why can't they just make it the same way when trying for the death attack. In game play it also makes sence to have it go off during sneak attack only and not having stealth. If someone turns their back to me to fight another, do I have to go hide again to hit him in a critical spot that I have been trained to attack. I see no reason game logistics or game play for the need for a stealth attack.

[ahpook]

So in this post you claim:

A) There haven't been any situations in this game where it would be useful to sneak in and sneak attack an enemy.

(for the record, I agree with you)

I think we agree on that point. My previous post was not to claim that you would do that but that you could do it. Therefore with WotA II you could kill something by sneaking in which many were claiming to be impossible. Whether that will be useful or not is still uncertain. I am not going to judge this aspect based on everybody's opinion that its useless because it was previously useless. IMHO, it was useless because you couldn't kill anything, not because sneaking was too hard or broken.

and

B) That there's nothing wrong with stealth.

That is overstating my point. There are things wrong with stealth. Mostly from the quest design front. The fact that killing something was usually the only way to progress and stealth had no ability to contribute to killing something is definitely a problem (which WotA II is addressing to some degree). There are a few places where you can sneak to pull a lever (Running with devils) or pick up a necessary object (Crucible, Made To Order) but there are not a lot of those places.

SO, the problem with WotA II is not that sneak doesn't work (at least not from the technical ability to sneak).

The biggest problem isn't the mindset of players. The biggest problem is that it's never advantageous to do so. Stealth takes too long, and is generally a bad idea.. as the rogue will get the aggro of everything else in the room and he'll either kill it (in which case the sneak attack obviously wasn't even necessary) or he'll need help (sneak attack wasn't all that helpful) or he'll die (wonderful).

Use of words like NEVER is what I object to. It is seldom advantageous. It is only NEVER advantageous when a certain playstyle dictates that approach. And to say it was never advantageous therefore it WILL never be advantageous (even though killing is now an option) is not a reasonable conclusion.

The people who have given up on stealth rejecting something based on it when the people who actively use stealth support it, says something as well.

Are you thinking that this ability will be useful for those times when there's only a single named creature in a room?

Well, since its unlikely to have a room with only one mob that everyone can't just rush into, no. However, i can see a mob guarding a switch or item and if you can take him out before he raises an alarm, you can avoid a battle. I am hoping that if we have the tools to play more tactically that we can get quests that can (not must) be played more tactically.

Do you know Sorcerers can finger of death an entire room, one by one, without getting aggro, provided they don't miss once? Do you still think stealth works wonderfully and the problem is just in the players minds?

I know that. That is perhaps a problem which should be solved in another discussion.

The mindset of many players is that they have to run with a wiz or sorcerer so somebody can FoD the room. (My guild is very small and we run with who we get. Sometimes, its a pally, a ranger and a rogue taking on Running with Devils.) There IS a player mindset that says everything has to be run with a certain party makeup to run in the shortest period of time. That's fine. Just don't reject features that don't support that playstyle or that will be the only playstyle we can ever use.

[Cowdenicus]

LOL....poor cowdenicus. You know one day they will fix it, especially now that they should relook at the faith lines because one of the lines was replaced with something else on the paladin side.

It was just too easy, I swear

[bobbryan2]

See, in theory, I love the new stealth attack. The ability to sneak in and get a one-hit kill at high levels is precisely why I made my first character a high strength rogue. Before I even got him to level cap, I realized that it simply didn't work like that.

So, when something is made to give rogues that ability, I was very happy.

But, I've learned a lot more about the nature of the game in the last two years. This is the kind of ability that I would have been ecstatic about when the game first opened... but other classes' abilities have progressed to the point that this kind of killing blow is not even all that special or unique. And the implementation of this special ability makes it more of a pain to use and even less useful overall than abilities that other classes get. The problem is that I always expected an ability like this to be joined by HIPS. Especially because HIPS and death attack both belong to the same class.

I don't necessarily have a problem with Death Attack being done from hiding. I do have issues with hiding and aggro in general. I guess if I was given the option of releasing a hiding dependant ability and then fixing hiding later, or releasing the ability now, then fixing hiding and then making it hiding-dependant... I would go with the former... I would just like to know if the devs are going to look at hiding in the future.

It's always kind of sore spot to me, because I loved rogues in most all the other games.. and I came to DDO with the expectation of loving rogues, and they sucked.

Everything about rogues really needs to be looked at:

-They upgraded diplo and intimidate, but left bluff horrible
-Improved Feint is still broken
-Open Locks, Disable Device, and Search times are waaaaaay to high -- Knock and Detect Secret Doors are all insta-effects that even get concentration checks for being interrupted.
-Stealth is borked pretty badly in the sense that it's never advantageous (RwtD and the Crucible examples could both be done without entering sneak mode)

It just seems like while rogues weren't getting much love for the last 2 years... neither were any of their mechanics for any abilities.

So it was a sore spot when they release my death attack ability.. and make it dependant on borked mechanics.

[Spisey]

Timeless Body – Your body and soul are your own, and you do not create spawn effects should you fall in combat with the undead. NOTE: This is a level 17 feat, available to level 17 Monks and higher.



Please tell me the upcoming mods are not solely based on undead again....


Sooo tired of undead filled quests for a few mods still.

[axebender]

is this really it for paladins? i know what u will all say..its still early yet..i fear not..we have a massive forum of ideas and this is what they give us ? i fear they origonally had no plans on helpin out the paladins and this is just a rush job..seriously have any of them played a paladin? i mean no disrespect but common..noone is excited about the raising dead enhancements..and there is seriouse dought in this new smite system. any new spells on the horizon? common give us an idea of where we paladins are steering too cause if its nowhere the delete option too make a monk is gonna be the way too go lol

[Turial]

See, in theory, I love the new stealth attack. The ability to sneak in and get a one-hit kill at high levels is precisely why I made my first character a high strength rogue. Before I even got him to level cap, I realized that it simply didn't work like that.

So, when something is made to give rogues that ability, I was very happy.

But, I've learned a lot more about the nature of the game in the last two years. This is the kind of ability that I would have been ecstatic about when the game first opened... but other classes' abilities have progressed to the point that this kind of killing blow is not even all that special or unique. And the implementation of this special ability makes it more of a pain to use and even less useful overall than abilities that other classes get. The problem is that I always expected an ability like this to be joined by HIPS. Especially because HIPS and death attack both belong to the same class.

I don't necessarily have a problem with Death Attack being done from hiding. I do have issues with hiding and aggro in general. I guess if I was given the option of releasing a hiding dependant ability and then fixing hiding later, or releasing the ability now, then fixing hiding and then making it hiding-dependant... I would go with the former... I would just like to know if the devs are going to look at hiding in the future.

It's always kind of sore spot to me, because I loved rogues in most all the other games.. and I came to DDO with the expectation of loving rogues, and they sucked.

Everything about rogues really needs to be looked at:

-They upgraded diplo and intimidate, but left bluff horrible
-Improved Feint is still broken
-Open Locks, Disable Device, and Search times are waaaaaay to high -- Knock and Detect Secret Doors are all insta-effects that even get concentration checks for being interrupted.
-Stealth is borked pretty badly in the sense that it's never advantageous (RwtD and the Crucible examples could both be done without entering sneak mode)

It just seems like while rogues weren't getting much love for the last 2 years... neither were any of their mechanics for any abilities.

So it was a sore spot when they release my death attack ability.. and make it dependant on borked mechanics.

The issue with HIPS and DDO is currently there is only one class that would normally get it. If they want to persist with WoTAII as it currently sits they should give WoTA I an ability that worked like HIPS. Something like if the rogue has aggro and hides they have a penalty of X (not sure what it is ...think -20) to hide. If the rogue successfully hides they then shed aggro.

Granted I bring it up because I would like to see it implemented for rangers too (along with camoflage [passive hide bonus pretty please]) but it should be tied in with WoTA I for rogues choosing that "profession"...yes profession *shifty eyes*.

[Jadeare]

# UPDATED Rogue Way of the Assassin II:

* Cost: 2 Action Points
* Prereqs: Rogue Level 12, Rogue Way of the Assassin I, Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III, Rogue Sneak Attack Training III, 42 Action Points Spent
* Benefit: Grants an additional +2 bonus to damage on critical hits (before multipliers), +2 bonus to Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently skills and a +1 bonus to Fortitude saves against poison. Also grants the ability to make devastating melee attacks that can kill a living target instantly on a successful sneak attack made from stealth if the target fails a Fortitude save, DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier. (15 second cool-down, can only be performed while stealth and when sneak attacking.)

Oh well there goes my excitement.

It makes sense i guess, i was all excited about running around and feeling powerful i guess.

[Dirtkicker]

[*]UPDATED Rogue Way of the Assassin II:

• Cost: 2 Action Points
• Prereqs: Rogue Level 12, Rogue Way of the Assassin I, Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III, Rogue Sneak Attack Training III, 42 Action Points Spent
• Benefit: Grants an additional +2 bonus to damage on critical hits (before multipliers), +2 bonus to Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently skills and a +1 bonus to Fortitude saves against poison. Also grants the ability to make devastating melee attacks that can kill a living target instantly on a successful sneak attack made from stealth if the target fails a Fortitude save, DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier. (15 second cool-down, can only be performed while stealth and when sneak attacking.)

I dont post a lot, but i have to express my disapointment that the WotA is requiring the rogue to be in stealth mode to use the insta-kill ability. Personally i think the insta-kill ability should simply have been considered a sneak attack ability with a vorpal type (20) roll of the dice. Another option, which isnt as good but still better than the stealth option is to put the insta-kill ability on a timer like the Paly smiting ability....

However, i was looking forward to playing my rogue more often now instead of highly specialized moments. But, my hope has faded. Maybe im missing something, but i feel bummed...

/off soapbox

Ratt

[bobbryan2]

The issue with HIPS and DDO is currently there is only one class that would normally get it. If they want to persist with WoTAII as it currently sits they should give WoTA I an ability that worked like HIPS. Something like if the rogue has aggro and hides they have a penalty of X (not sure what it is ...think -20) to hide. If the rogue successfully hides they then shed aggro.

Granted I bring it up because I would like to see it implemented for rangers too (along with camoflage [passive hide bonus pretty please]) but it should be tied in with WoTA I for rogues choosing that "profession"...yes profession *shifty eyes*.

Well, HIPS is granted to Rangers at 17 and Assassins at 8 and Shadowdancers at 1 (from memory at least).

I would think HIPS would be WotA II.. a Shadowdancer PrE would be fun.. and could get it earlier. I would tie Shadowdancer in with Acrobat, cuz Acrobat seems a li'l off to me. But either way... yeah, those 3 classes should get it.

Rangers will need HIPS by mod 8... so hopefully the tech will be developed for WotAs as well.

[cdbd3rd]

[*]UPDATED Rogue Way of the Assassin II:

• Cost: 2 Action Points
• Prereqs: Rogue Level 12, Rogue Way of the Assassin I, Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III, Rogue Sneak Attack Training III, 42 Action Points Spent
• Benefit: Grants an additional +2 bonus to damage on critical hits (before multipliers), +2 bonus to Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently skills and a +1 bonus to Fortitude saves against poison. Also grants the ability to make devastating melee attacks that can kill a living target instantly on a successful sneak attack made from stealth if the target fails a Fortitude save, DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier. (15 second cool-down, can only be performed while stealth and when sneak attacking.)

I dont post a lot, but i have to express my disapointment that the WotA is requiring the rogue to be in stealth mode to use the insta-kill ability. Personally i think the insta-kill ability should simply have been considered a sneak attack ability with a vorpal type (20) roll of the dice. Another option, which isnt as good but still better than the stealth option is to put the insta-kill ability on a timer like the Paly smiting ability....

However, i was looking forward to playing my rogue more often now instead of highly specialized moments. But, my hope has faded. Maybe im missing something, but i feel bummed...

/off soapbox

Ratt

This kinda mirrors my thoughts as I've watched this evolve.

My concern about this all mirrors the same concerns I have on my Spring Attack fighter. If *he* that can't get a hit-roll against a moving target, how will a stealthed rogue ever get to make a 'kill' attempt against something besides empty air? (referring to attacks in melee, not a sneak/infiltrate/initial strike scenario)

/Returns to wait-and-see mode.

[Turial]

Well, HIPS is granted to Rangers at 17 and Assassins at 8 and Shadowdancers at 1 (from memory at least).

I would think HIPS would be WotA II.. a Shadowdancer PrE would be fun.. and could get it earlier. I would tie Shadowdancer in with Acrobat, cuz Acrobat seems a li'l off to me. But either way... yeah, those 3 classes should get it.

Rangers will need HIPS by mod 8... so hopefully the tech will be developed for WotAs as well.

Crosses fingers for both our classes. We can dream.

[Delacroix21]

Way of the assassin 2 stinks now =(. Why not just reduce the DC to 1/2 rogue level and return to old one?


P.S. Can you Please make quarterstaves finesseable? I dont see why a rogue would use one otherwise, even if strength based. Not to mention im sure monks would appreciate it too! =)

[ahpook]

See, in theory, I love the new stealth attack. The ability to sneak in and get a one-hit kill at high levels is precisely why I made my first character a high strength rogue. Before I even got him to level cap, I realized that it simply didn't work like that.
....
It just seems like while rogues weren't getting much love for the last 2 years... neither were any of their mechanics for any abilities.

So it was a sore spot when they release my death attack ability.. and make it dependant on borked mechanics.

We have much in agreement except that I don't think that stealthing is as borked as you do. My rogue does it a fair bit and works fine only it doesn't do much in the context of the quests we are given. I guess i am hoping if they give us better tools they will make more opportunities for us to use them. Probably wishful thinking

Now, I would love it if they removed the stealth requirement, but I would take the stealth requirement rather than reducing the DC as some have suggested.** I already have a large supply of Greater Slaying arrows so I know what a DC 23 fort save means TVM. I also don't want this to drift into a combat clicky that you hit every 12 seconds without thinking. That takes rogues further from something unique to just a variation of a barbarian who runs up and spams attack sequences. That would kill my rogue faster than this enhancement chain.

Thanks for the discussion and sharing your views.

**As someone has just suggested again

[Borror0]

Intimidate now generates significantly greater threat against affected monsters when used.

That means Intimidate will last longer than 6s?

[Mhykke]

That means Intimidate will last longer than 6s?

I'm guessing the time stays the same, but it will be harder for party members to pull the aggro off of you when intimidate timer runs out (at least the ones you're attacking.)

[MysticTheurge]

"Sound Burst has had its spell description changed to reflect the fact that the stun effect can be resisted using Spell resistance. "

It is still not accurate. Either the word "stun" should be removed, or the spells should be modified so enemies are susceptible to auto-crits, just like stunning blow or greater shout.

Better yet, make all stuns consistent both with each other and the D&D 3.5 rules.

Stunned

A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

A stunned creature is not Helpless and thus shouldn't be hit with auto-crits.

(Notably, though, they should be hit with auto-sneak attacks.)

[Borror0]

I'm guessing the time stays the same, but it will be harder for party members to pull the aggro off of you when intimidate timer runs out (at least the ones you're attacking.)

Oh, that's cool then.

Still waiting for Improved Intimidation and Fighters getting the equivalent of Barbarian's Intimidation.

EDIT: To makre sure I have it: (Combat): You make a Intimidate skill check on Eladrin. You roll a 20 (+50): success?