Weekly Dev Activities 04/14/08

[bobbryan2]

I respectfully disagree with you on this one. It is a problem with game play style foremost. While there are a number of things that can be improved with stealth (primarily involving more use for it in quests) the biggest stumbling block is the players mind set.

To be clear, I am not saying that I would sneak in, just to get crippling strike and sneak bonus. I am saying my rogue is able to. Thus he is able to sneak in and assassinate a mob with the new enhancement.

Are there many cases where that's useful? I cannot say off hand because my previous evaluations have all been that it would be impossible to kill anything so the results are not useful. Filtering the evaluation with this new ability may provide a different conclusion.

Will there any be any cases where it will be useful in a party of zergers? I doubt it. But that doesn't mean that they have to change the feature has to work with that playstyle. More play style options is a good thing.

So in this post you claim:

A) There haven't been any situations in this game where it would be useful to sneak in and sneak attack an enemy.

(for the record, I agree with you)

and

B) That there's nothing wrong with stealth.

The biggest problem isn't the mindset of players. The biggest problem is that it's never advantageous to do so. Stealth takes too long, and is generally a bad idea.. as the rogue will get the aggro of everything else in the room and he'll either kill it (in which case the sneak attack obviously wasn't even necessary) or he'll need help (sneak attack wasn't all that helpful) or he'll die (wonderful).

Are you thinking that this ability will be useful for those times when there's only a single named creature in a room?

Do you know Sorcerers can finger of death an entire room, one by one, without getting aggro, provided they don't miss once? Do you still think stealth works wonderfully and the problem is just in the players minds?

[Laith]

Do you know Sorcerers can finger of death an entire room, one by one, without getting aggro, provided they don't miss once?

i know this is still how it works, but (correct me if i'm wrong) isn't this something that they claimed to have fixed at one point?

stealth is gimped for many reasons (mentioned previously), and it's inefficient for many others (common play-style).
it, in combination with invisibility, has also proven to cause bugs in AI (as ghoste has shown).

it really needs some serious work.

[Lithic]

i know this is still how it works, but (correct me if i'm wrong) isn't this something that they claimed to have fixed at one point?

using a broken mechanic to prove another mechanic doesn't work right is... wonky.

ACtually what they put in was that when a mob appears to die from a heart attack (long range FoD), the mobs start looking around as if they heard something. Unfortunately, most mobs cant see far enough to spot the sorc who cast it in the first place.

Try this with a pack of giants though, and that sorc better start running.

[bobbryan2]

i know this is still how it works, but (correct me if i'm wrong) isn't this something that they claimed to have fixed at one point?

They claimed to fix this with the specific spell of cloudkill.

[bobbryan2]

ACtually what they put in was that when a mob appears to die from a heart attack (long range FoD), the mobs start looking around as if they heard something. Unfortunately, most mobs cant see far enough to spot the sorc who cast it in the first place.

Try this with a pack of giants though, and that sorc better start running.

In my experience, they don't even do that most of the time. Some groups do, most don't.

[Laith]

In my experience, they don't even do that most of the time. Some groups do, most don't.

that is correct. most don't even start looking.

that is, if "looking" is defined by the "i heard something" action that most mobs engage when they believe a PC is nearby (ie. hear them, but don't spot them), and also moving around while appearing to search for something (i guess they're improving their spot radius).

just cloudkill? lame. could swear it was death effects too.

[MysticTheurge]

Do you know Sorcerers can finger of death an entire room, one by one, without getting aggro, provided they don't miss once?

It's even easier with a spell that doesn't cause damage on a successful save.

It's pretty easy to Banish/Dismiss things in Mod 6 content and never get aggro.

They claimed to fix this with the specific spell of cloudkill.

No, it was supposed to have been fixed for all spells, such that if another monster in your "group" dies, you start looking for why.

It doesn't seem to have actually worked.

Oh, and, as an aside: Will being invisible meet the requirements for "stealthed" for WotAII purposes? What about your target being blinded? In D&D both of these things are actually, generally, better than being stealthed.

[Aesop]

Unthrilled with the WotA II changes. All it does is make the whole process painfully slow for no reason

The Resting to cure curse is ...dumb...in my opinion the effect is permanent til removed and its not that hard to get removed

I find WotM II sad in a highly sad and pathetic way... absolutly nothing interesting in there at all. I know you mentioned that Rogues are going to be able to set traps soon; so that was why WotMII didn't get that ... but couldn't you have thrown us a bone here. I mean +2 to all resists? doesn't seem enough when we either take nothing with Improved Evasion or are taking a stupid amount of damage ... 2 just seems ... weak. +4 to save vrs traps? snore. A little pizzazz please.

Wrack Construct is a little better though and that's good... and I'm glad you changed the 3rd tier to DD III or WotM I... very nice there

Divine Sacrifice is weak unless it lasts a duration and thus is multiple swings it just doesn't cut it

Thank you on the trap boxes sometimes finding them can be a pain

The regening Smites are a nice thing but can you make the Extra Smite increase the number returned per 90 sec. cause 90 sec is a long long time... even if the line only increases the number returned by 2 over a 4 tier enhancement... so 3 every 90 sec as opposed to 1.


so yeah that's my opinion

This WDA's star was Wrack Construct... /sigh nice but a little underwhelmed guys ... sorry I can't get more enthused

Aesop

[bobbryan2]

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)
At 8th level, an assassin can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.

Throw that little beauty in with WotA II and it would get a lot cooler instantly.

[Strumpoo]

Yup

I bet you are right and that would stink...

First they make constructs into robots/machines and then they will change undead into fleshlings...

[dragnmoon]

Sneak is fine. Aggro is significantly broken (being able to know where your target is regardles of LOS considerations), but sneak is still just fine.

This is how Way of the Assassin will work. A rogue is invis, hasted, blurred, displaced, and running with the rest of the group. They all run headlong into a mass of ogres, and one starts attacking a nearby paladin. The rogue runs right up to the backside of the ogre, hits sneak, 1 second later hits his special death attack. If the ogre fails a DC 32 fort save (which is similar to a level 14 necro-focused wizard's DC), he dies. Instantly.

It will work just fine as well.

Probably too well.

If this is the way it works..then fine....

But it is still unclear if it just requires going into sneak mode... or having to go into the combat unseen... if it is the later..then your idea will not work..because you can not go into hiding in the middle of combat..

[dragnmoon]

I bet you are right and that would stink...

First they make constructs into robots/machines and then they will change undead into fleshlings...

I personally love it... My rogue is next to useless against Undead... It would be nice that I could be effective against the Most used monster in the game..

[Korvek]

Weekly Development Activities
The following are items which are in development or QA testing for release in Module 7.
[*]UPDATED Rogue Wrack Construct I

• Prereqs: Rogue level 3, Rogue Disable Device I, 7 Action Points Spent
• Cost: 1 Action Point
• Benefit: You can activate this ability to use your understanding of mechanical objects and their vulnerabilities to strike at critical points in a construct's anatomy, dealing an extra 1d6 damage to constructs or living constructs. In addition, the target must make a Reflex save, DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier or suffer a 10% reduction in their resistance to Critical Hits for a short period of time. (6 second cooldown.)

[*]UPDATED Rogue Wrack Construct II

• Prereqs: Rogue level 7, Rogue Disable Device II, Rogue Wrack Construct I, 22 Action Points Spent
• Cost: 2 Action Points
• Benefit: You can activate this ability to use your understanding of mechanical objects and their vulnerabilities to strike at critical points in a construct's anatomy, dealing an extra 3d6 damage to constructs or living constructs. In addition, the target must make a Reflex save, DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier or suffer a 20% reduction in their resistance to Critical Hits for a short period of time.

[*]UPDATED Rogue Wrack Construct III

• Prereqs: Rogue level 11, Rogue Wrack Construct II, 37 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Rogue Disable Device III, Rogue Way of the Mechanic I
• Cost: 3 Action Points
• Benefit: You can activate this ability to use your understanding of mechanical objects and their vulnerabilities to strike at critical points in a construct's anatomy, dealing an extra 5d6 damage to constructs or living constructs. In addition, the target must make a Reflex save, DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier or suffer a 30% reduction in their resistance to Critical Hits for a short period of time.

I'm uncertain as to whether this has been asked already or not, but do the various fortification/critical hit resistance debuffs stack if there are multiple rogues using the ability at once?

[Cyr]

Would also love to hear the answer to the multiple debuff effects stacking from wrack construct.

Love changes to wrack construct....much needed boost there. Hate changes to way of the assassin 2...I have to search for my sneak button when the rare case that i would use it comes up...would have preferred a much longer cooldown or times per rest method of balancing this effect...oh well one less thing to buy with my rogue

[honkuimushi]

I've got to agree withe dameron and most of the others on Way of the Assassin. With the issues of hitting moving mobs, it's hard enough to sneak up and land a successful attack. One they get spooked and start moving at full speed,it's impossible for a stealthed character to catch up. It might be worth it for a solo rogue, but that's about it. It just takes to long to sneak up and line up a death attack, then once you do it, grab aggro from every one around you. From soloing experience I've notice that even if the mobs are out of line of sight, just making an attack near them will instantly gain aggro and they will run right to you. And once they know you're there, you can't restealth, they see right through it. The way this has been described makes me think that you can't be on the aggro list all, ie. the monster can't know you're there. In that case I can't see using this in a group, because everyone has to wait on the rogue who has to use a slow movement animation to get there and will end up all alone against how many mobs once they break stealth. FoD is much less risky and is more effective and time efficient. The elimination of the +4 bonus to sneak attacks just makes it even less useful.

Last week the was a suggestion that any monster that saves gains immunity to the attack for a certain amont of time. You did this with web, why not do it with this? If a death attack fails, give the monster immunity for 1 minute or even permanent immunity. That way you can't spam it against 1 monster, you get 1 shot. Having a cooldown of 15-20 seconds would also mean that you get 1 or 2 attacks per battle. I don't see that as overpowered. Remember, we are talking about level 12+ where we already have PK, Slay Living and FoD and Destruction from level 13. It also works with the main way of gaining sneak attacks. And bring back the +4 bonus to sneak attacks. It's only a little better than an additional 1d6.

I like most of the other stuff, though I will add my voice to those requesting a way to combine Site Evil and Divine Sacrifice. And I do think that adding a rez shrine in the Guardian's chamber in STK would be a good idea, especially with the changes to chests a being in the instance. It might make the battle a little easier if you can rez and keep fighting, but there is still no way to replenich mana and you would have to find some way to quickly heal anyone who rezzes(and deal with the rez sickness). The main purpose in my opinion would be to allow people to get their loot immeadiately instead of waiting for people to recall, heal up and come back into the instance to open the chest. You could have it appear after he's dead, it's just those suddenly appearing rest shrines just seem weird to me.

[kyebosh]

[*]UPDATED Rogue Way of the Assassin II:

• Cost: 2 Action Points
• Prereqs: Rogue Level 12, Rogue Way of the Assassin I, Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III, Rogue Sneak Attack Training III, 42 Action Points Spent
• Benefit: Grants an additional +2 bonus to damage on critical hits (before multipliers), +2 bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Hide, and Move Silently skills and a +1 bonus to Fortitude saves against poison. Also grants the ability to make devastating melee attacks that can kill a living target instantly on a successful sneak attack made from stealth if the target fails a Fortitude save, DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier. (15 second cool-down, can only be performed while stealth and when sneak attacking.)

Dear Turbine,
Please remove words in red.
Please add word in green.

Much love

[Rickpa]

[*]NEW Paladin Smite Evil uses now regenerate at a rate of 1 every 90 seconds.[/LIST] New Feats[LIST]

Why not make it 1 every 20 minutes?

[Cowdenicus]

Why not make it 1 every 20 minutes?

Because if something regened every 10-20 minutes, then it would mean it would have had to have been a cleric ability.

[Kistilan]

This one is not a problem..

If you have aggro.. You are not going to use this ability anyway..since it requires a Sneak attack so being in stealth or not stealth..it still would have not worked....and A good Rogue knows how to get rid of Aggro..

Improved Feint with a high bluff removes agro, even from the direct mob you're swinging at and all their friends.

Bluff (slower) does the same thing. Both of these can drop all agro around the rogue-fighter, but the trick is stealthing and moving up to the targets after this. I've a feeling improved stealth speeds are a requirement now along with improved feint and a high bluff to make this enhancement truly worthwhile.

[Syrin]

I don't mind the changes to WotA2 since i assume you can just quickly sneak & death attack if you don't have aggro.

...except for the +2 crit bonus, i would rather it be a bonus to sneak attack damage (for style reasons as well as subtle backstabbing ones)



Also, I will throw my lot in with those that think stealth is a joke, b/c for the most part it is. It was fun way back in beta when you could open doors and stuff while stealthed, now there is little tactical advantage, and no one is willing to wait.