Weekly Dev Activities 04/14/08

[Angelus_dead]

Stealth works fine when you use it appropriately. My rogue CAN go in and get first shot with sneak attack bonus and crippling strike. He cannot do it when running with a zerging pug. That is not game problem but a style of play problem. Turbine should not create everything to fit into that one game style.

No, stealth is not fine, and it is a problem with the game design.

Sure, you can sneak up and get a sneak attack crippling strike on the first hit... but why would you want to?

You could simply run up at full speed at the same time everyone else does, and also get sneak attack crippling strike on your first hit. And that way you don't have every other monster aggroed on you at once.

[Thraxes]

when i think of this attack, this is what i think of...

http://www.ddo1liners.co.uk/archives/111.htm

to augment it and make it just as good as the others it would be nice to have the extra 2 damage changed to be a +2 seeker bonus (same effect except it helps to confirm the critical as well).

to bad this is how we play

http://www.ddo1liners.co.uk/archives/102.htm

[ArkoHighStar]

No, stealth is not fine, and it is a problem with the game design.

Sure, you can sneak up and get a sneak attack crippling strike on the first hit... but why would you want to?

You could simply run up at full speed at the same time everyone else does, and also get sneak attack crippling strike on your first hit. And that way you don't have every other monster aggroed on you at once.

stealth is and has been horribly broken since beta. Once a mob has aggro they are like heat seeking missiles no matter whether you haste out of the room and hide around the corner or basically run halfway down the dungeon, if there is no one else to get their aggro they will always have aggro on you, and stealth does not help. Stealth only works when you are the first one in, and once its broken you better have backup because everything turns on you.

[Laith]

oh, sneak is definately messed up.

Once a mob has aggro they are like heat seeking missiles no matter whether you haste out of the room and hide around the corner or basically run halfway down the dungeon

minor correction: unless you add invisibility to the mix.

I recommend you view Ghoste's youtube videos (he's got the link in his sig, so i figure it's ok to share)

[Shyver]

Subtle Backstabber = Seriously increased survivability. While I've never played with Stunning Blow, I feel Subtle Backstabber is by far the best enhancement line offered rogues.

I think subtle backstabbers worth is dependant on the build and damage output. In no way saying you don't do good damage, all rogues do. I just didn't see the particular worth on my build for the 10 AP. A quick break down on my rogues (Dwarven 13 rogue/2 ranger) damage.

+5 Greensteel Khopesh with holy and flame upgrades (going for radiance), 30 Strength, Bloodstone, Backstabber Enhancements to hit and damage.

Regular Hit: 19 - 43
Subtle BS4: 11 - 26

Regular Sneak Attack: 34 - 93
Subtle Backstabber 4: 20 - 56

Critical Hit: 70 - 121
Subtle BS4: 42 - 73

Critical Sneak Attack: 90 - 171
Subtle Backstabber 4: 54 - 103

So while looking at the numbers I wil admit that I could see the usefulness in some builds. Most strength based rogue builds will outdamage the usefulness of the 10 AP's required. As for stunning blow, if you can get your DC up on it, it really is a true "killing blow" that only has a 10 sec? cooldown. Right now I couple the greensteel khopesh with the Hammer of the Leaden Clouds from the Tor.

[Mercules]

Subtle Backstabber = Seriously increased survivability. While I've never played with Stunning Blow, I feel Subtle Backstabber is by far the best enhancement line offered rogues.

Agreed. I'll follow a 2H melee around with my Dwarven Rogue. I use a Dwarven Axe with Cleave/GCleave and if I let the melee get the agro I can kick off both Clv and GClv without drawing the agro away from them and doing some rather nice numbers on the multiple sneak attacks.

[thatguy]

I am just hoping they actually support the level increase we got in Mod 6...since they didn't in Mod 6...

My Anger will know no bounds if they don't.. I will be even more angrier then I was when they Nerfed HV

I guess we will see in the not too distant future.

[bobbryan2]

no


I hear ya.

Stealth works fine when you use it appropriately. My rogue CAN go in and get first shot with sneak attack bonus and crippling strike. He cannot do it when running with a zerging pug. That is not game problem but a style of play problem. Turbine should not create everything to fit into that one game style.

This adds playstyle options. If you don't want to play an assassin style don't take this enhancement. If you are looking for zerg support, put your APs into subtle back-stabbing and sneak accuracy and damage. It should allow you to do max damage in a zerg party. This should not be another zerg combat clicky.

The person you're "hearing" agrees with everyone else that the stealth mechanics are screwy at best. People were fine with this ability at the last update because they didn't use the screwiness of stealth in them.

Changing WotA to use screwy tech, however, is distressing to people that do use stealth from time to time, and especially to people that gave up on stealth a long time ago because it's not worth it.

Sneak mode is barely ever used in this game... and it's always used as a means to not get aggro, and never as a method to get in close to sneak attack.

Sneak attacking patrolling and otherwise moving mobs is crazy hard. Trying to get in the perfect range to use a sneak attack while remaining far enough away to not run into the mob and aggro him is also problematic.

As far as sneak 'attacking' in this game.. it's been generally accepted since launch that hiding and sneak attacking is done via not having aggro at the moment in question. We bypassed the screwy Sneak tech for the last two years entirely. How many rogues actually say to their group... "Ok... let me sneak in so I get the first hit on that orthon and get sneak attack damage?"

If you did that in my group, I would just laugh at you and tell you to go ahead and sit back and get the popcorn out. That's a ridiculous request in this game. Why would you aggro 10 different mobs on you without any backup just for the chance of doing 100 damage. For that matter, why would you aggro 10 different mobs on you without any backup just for the chance to kill one of them?

Without a Hide in Plain Sight type ability, the odds of even wanting your party to stay back so you can kill a single creature is very low.

It has absolutely nothing to do with zerging PUG groups. Being upset that zerger pug groups don't wait on facinate is one thing... being upset that zerger pug groups don't let you go get 100 damage on a mob, and then either kite them back and ambush your own party and/or die a horrible death is just stupid.

[bobbryan2]

Now... if a successful Death Attack didn't unhide you.

That could be fun.

[Cowdenicus]

I thought regular crafting was coming in this Mod??????

[Laith]

I thought regular crafting was coming in this Mod??????

we can only hope that more spells are too...

of course, not everything is announced yet... hopefully.
the only date we have so far for mod7 is "not april".

[Cowdenicus]

we can only hope that more spells are too...

of course, not everything is announced yet... hopefully.
the only date we have so far for mod7 is "not april".

Superior Potency 9 scepter of Superior Arcane Lore here I come WOOT.

[Raithe]

Sneak is fine. Aggro is significantly broken (being able to know where your target is regardles of LOS considerations), but sneak is still just fine.

This is how Way of the Assassin will work. A rogue is invis, hasted, blurred, displaced, and running with the rest of the group. They all run headlong into a mass of ogres, and one starts attacking a nearby paladin. The rogue runs right up to the backside of the ogre, hits sneak, 1 second later hits his special death attack. If the ogre fails a DC 32 fort save (which is similar to a level 14 necro-focused wizard's DC), he dies. Instantly.

It will work just fine as well.

Probably too well.

[Cowdenicus]

Sneak is fine. Aggro is significantly broken (being able to know where your target is regardles of LOS considerations), but sneak is still just fine.

This is how Way of the Assassin will work. A rogue is invis, hasted, blurred, displaced, and running with the rest of the group. They all run headlong into a mass of ogres, and one starts attacking a nearby paladin. The rogue runs right up to the backside of the ogre, hits sneak, 1 second later hits his special death attack. If the ogre fails a DC 32 fort save (which is similar to a level 14 necro-focused wizard's DC), he dies. Instantly.

It will work just fine as well.

Probably too well.

agreed.

[arcanehealer]

[U][B]

• NEW Bestow Curse is now removed on rest.
• NEW Trap boxes, upon discovery, now emit a small stream of particles for a few seconds to aid rogues and their party in finding them.

7.8

YAY!

[Twerpp]

So when is MOD 7 anyway?

Oh yes and can we get a fighter feat or two thrown in please we are 16th level fighters nearly epic. I'm sure there's something out there you can choose that easily translates to this game.

[Ildaron]

Weekly Development Activities[*]UPDATED Paladin Redemption I

• Cost: 4 Action Points
• Prereqs: Level 9 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I, 28 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion II, Paladin Heal II
• Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to raise the dead, returning your target to life at 10% health. (30 second cooldown.)

[*]Paladin Redemption II

• Cost: 2 Action Points
• Prereqs: Level 14 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II, Paladin Redemption I, 50 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion III, Paladin Heal III
• Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 50% health.

[*]Paladin Redemption III (Not yet available)

• Cost: 2 Action Points
• Prereqs: Level 19 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III, Paladin Redemption II, 70 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion IV, Paladin Heal IV
• Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to true resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 100% health.

This is very nice! Now Paladins will be able to raise dead whenever they want with no SP cost. (Hopefully saving clerics some SP in the proccess. With a 30 second cool down I don't see it being a huge wait time. On the other hand, this cripples and makes the Faith Line for the Undying Court useless. It is better then it on all levels.

1) Anyone Paladin can take this, no need to be an elf.
2) When you raise someone at the 1st level they recieve more HP then Undying Call (Undying call is 1 HP on all non elves Drow included)
3) You can use this ehancement faster then Undying call. (30 seconds vs 10 mintues)

Now I am not going to say nerf this enhancement line as it does make Paladins more attractive, however I would like Undying call to be an attractive opiton as well. Right now it has nothing going for it.

1) 1st level +1 to hit with Scimitars this is not useful with clerics or Paladinss. Paladins can use the +1 clerics normally use their turn undeads for Divine Vitality so won't be using the level 1 abilities to make themselves proficent with Scimtars, Paladins already are.

2) The ten mintue cooldown vs 30 seconds with more HP. Perhaps make the reserection a True one for everyone and not just elves. I would also say make the cool down every 5 mintues, but it might be to much. On low level Von 3 groups I can see Paladin Redemption being very nice same as on Invaders, and maybe for some quick rasing in certian part of the Shroud outside of nice spell saving goodness on the average quest. Unlimited raises is a very powerful thing and with a 30 second cooldown I'll be grabbing it now.

[Cowdenicus]

So when is MOD 7 anyway?

Oh yes and can we get a fighter feat or two thrown in please we are 16th level fighters nearly epic. I'm sure there's something out there you can choose that easily translates to this game.

Like

Deflect Arrows and Overrun?

[bobbryan2]

Sneak is fine. Aggro is significantly broken (being able to know where your target is regardles of LOS considerations), but sneak is still just fine.

This is how Way of the Assassin will work. A rogue is invis, hasted, blurred, displaced, and running with the rest of the group. They all run headlong into a mass of ogres, and one starts attacking a nearby paladin. The rogue runs right up to the backside of the ogre, hits sneak, 1 second later hits his special death attack. If the ogre fails a DC 32 fort save (which is similar to a level 14 necro-focused wizard's DC), he dies. Instantly.

It will work just fine as well.

Probably too well.

Hah... I love how you start out with the premise that SNEAK is fine. And end with a strategy that completely bypasses SNEAK with the exception of using it half a second before the death attack.

How can you even, with a straight face, say that SNEAK is fine.

[ahpook]

No, stealth is not fine, and it is a problem with the game design.

I respectfully disagree with you on this one. It is a problem with game play style foremost. While there are a number of things that can be improved with stealth (primarily involving more use for it in quests) the biggest stumbling block is the players mind set.

Sure, you can sneak up and get a sneak attack crippling strike on the first hit... but why would you want to?

To be clear, I am not saying that I would sneak in, just to get crippling strike and sneak bonus. I am saying my rogue is able to. Thus he is able to sneak in and assassinate a mob with the new enhancement.

Are there many cases where that's useful? I cannot say off hand because my previous evaluations have all been that it would be impossible to kill anything so the results are not useful. Filtering the evaluation with this new ability may provide a different conclusion.

Will there any be any cases where it will be useful in a party of zergers? I doubt it. But that doesn't mean that they have to change the feature has to work with that playstyle. More play style options is a good thing.