Toughness!!!

[Hvymetal]

Then I want all the wf blanket immunities

Sure, soon as we get a bonus to a melee weapon and you show me a basis for dwarves having immunities like I did for toughness

[Emili]

The Toughness enhancements are already in the game, are are currently primarily used by the race/class that already should have the most HP (Dwarven Barbarians) - the mobs are already adjusted for this, which causes all other race/class combo's to fall behind. I find it amusing some people in this thread say 50 HP doesn't make a difference and others say it would make a character overpowered - those are the two opposite extremes. The difference on a Barbarian? Say, from 450-500, not much of a difference. The difference on a Ranger? From 280-330, that is significant.

Many DPS barbs do not do much toughness Because as you pointed out 450-500 is not much and yes it is a larger difference on a lower hit-die class/race mix and even moreso for those who try to balance out other areas as thier stats outside con... thus so many concentrating on AC, saves, etc... it's very easy to miss the substanial points. This is why I pointed out this enhancment line it itself overshadows both base and epic feats.

[Darth_Sizzle]

Something I would like to add. I have not said I wanted any enhancements removed (because I don't think they should be), Dwarves should be extra Tough, it's their thing & having two Toughness enhancement lines available to them is also fine - if they decide to invest heavily here, then they are sacrificing in other areas. The same thing can be said about any other class; my Drow Sorcerer would never take a Toughness feat, and certainly wouldn't spend the AP's on an enhancement line for it (need my spell pen, spell points, damage amp, etc) - but it should be available to him if he did want to make that sacrifice.

To be even more specific:

1. Rangers need this the most (as someone else said, all the other full BAB classes get it - What? Rangers aren't supposed to be Tough? Really?)

2. Rogues, and what the hell, Bards & Clerics need this too (these being the mid BAB classes) - basically anyone who might be going "toe to toe."

3. Casters - while I don't think it's truly necessary for them to have it (as I wouldn't find room for it on any of mine), why the heck not?

[BLAKROC]

Sure, soon as we get a bonus to a melee weapon and you show me a basis for dwarves having immunities like I did for toughness

never said i was a dorf my point is simply that all races/classes offer somthing a little different. wanting them all to have the same enhancements makes no sense to me. i suppose you can make a wf barb and get toughness that way.

[Vhlad]

All enhancements should be feat/bab/skill/attribute/spell & total character level based.

i.e.
If you want a paladin type enhancement, then instead of making it require X levels of paladin, make it require smite evil and total character level X, or make it require the ability to cast paladin spells of level Y or higher.

Maybe they can keep a few special racial enhancements, as long as they really are supposed to be race specific. But class based? pnp rarely uses class based requirements. Epic level feats for example may say requires 5 favoured enemies instead, but they keep it flexible on purpose because of all the PrCs, multiclassing, and different ways to get things.

So. Toughness enhancement. requires toughness feat and base con 13, and each tier has an AP spent requirement.
makes more sense than just dwarf only + feat, since a dwarf rogue with 10 con and 1 toughness feat can take it, but a human rogue with 18 con and 4 toughness feats cant.

[ThrasherGT]

From a long-term game evolution stand-point, I'm not really in favor of this idea because of the potential harm it could bring.

I'm primarily thinking of my experience with Everquest here. And how Hit Points escalated EQ's end-game into something completely ... well ... ridiculous. It just got out of hand. There was a point during one expansion (Luclin) where the response to player hit points and complete heal spells and raid DPS being so over the top that the boss encounters in that game were tuned with milllions of hit points. Some fights took almost an hour of just standing there beating on the boss. By the time I left the game (can't even remember the expansion, but it was like 2 or 3 after Planes of Power) ... tanks had over 10,000 hit points.

Now I'm not saying your suggestion will lead to that. What I'm saying is ... it just reminds me of what it was like in EQ. Hit Points were pretty much the only measuring stick of worth in certain aspects of the end-game. And EVERY character, no matter what the class, was pigeon-holed into getting hit point first, other stats second. And it just got boring.

I think your suggestion opens the door for making toughness feats (and in turn enhancements) almost mandatory in classes that normally aren't supposed to focus on hit points or hardiness. And then the standard design response to that kind of across the board hit point inflation is ... mobs that have a lot more hit points, hit a lot harder, and resist a lot of magical spells.

Although I see the point You're making about inflation, remember that we're talking about 50 HP here, not thousands, and remember that we're only 4 levels from the theoretical level cap (20). I just don't see 50 HP for those who want to spend the AP's for it, to be Totally game breaking. Don't forget, to get toughness, characters would have to give something else up and then spend the APs to get the enhancements.

[Darth_Sizzle]

never said i was a dorf my point is simply that all races/classes offer somthing a little different. wanting them all to have the same enhancements makes no sense to me. i suppose you can make a wf barb and get toughness that way.

Racial differences are not the issue, I believe these are well balanced (with the exception of the missing WF Toughness enhancements).

Class differences are the issue - because the toughness enhancements are not available to Rangers, Rogues, Bards, and Clerics people end up rolling Dwarves for these to make up for it. Personally, I would like to see a greater diversity.

More on the issue of Warforged & Dwarves:

Dwarves are considered "Tough" because they get a racial bonus to Con.

Warforged should be considered "Tough" also, because they too get a racial bonus to Con.

Yes, they have immunities. They also have a -2 to two stats instead of one & they are harder to heal.

Dwarves get the Axe enhancements, spell save bonuses, balance bonuses, AC bonuses....need I go on?

(oh, you could also roll a WF Fighter or a WF Paladin and get toughness that way too, but not a WF Ranger, Rogue, Bard, Cleric, Wizard, or Sorcerer )

[Pyromaniac]

I agree with the OP, make it available to all. This is one of the most obvious overpowered dwarven enhancements. Also doesn't make sense that its only available to certain classes.

If you want to reduce the percentage of dwarven players versus other races - this is the one thing to change.

[MysticTheurge]

Better yet put Toughness back to 5 extra HPs at each level of the enhancement and then you wouldn't have such a big gap between Melees and not (and Dwarves and not) and things would be far more reasonable.

[Aesop]

I'm with ya... and not. THe Toughness enhancements are borked in that they give too much. An "enhancement" shouldn't more than double the power of a feat and currently it is overpowering everything out there. drop it down to +20 hp each and open it up to anyone who takes the dang feat. ten you can have a supplemental line if ya like for extra tough races for +10 and classes for +10.

so a Dwarven Barbarian could get +20 +10 +10 (total +40) and a human wizard could get +20. Still a benefit in there but not hugley overpowering.

Aesop

[Allgee]

Every character should have an achilliles heal. It wouldnt be DD otherwise. If your lacking in HP, your making it up with better saves or having magic or the ability to heal yourself with a wand. Toughness enhancements are for the fighters and barbarians who need it the most.

[Aesop]

Every character should have an achilliles heal. It wouldnt be DD otherwise. If your lacking in HP, your making it up with better saves or having magic or the ability to heal yourself with a wand. Toughness enhancements are for the fighters and barbarians who need it the most.

Except they don't need it the most and the super high benefits they are getting from an enhancement that gives more than 2.5 times the feat benefit is ridiculous. Nevermind Dwarven versions that are getting an extra 100 hp. That is insane. A little extra to those heavy weights I could see but they already have the best HP in game so suddenly they need more? The inflated HP of these fighters cause the developers to make mobs that hit harder then when so called light fighters do what they are supposed to do best they are at an even further disadvantage. I mean look at the Orthons... they hit like relative bricks have a ton of hp and whats worse is they hit 360degrees... so you can even flank the SOBs and be safe. Suddenly on non crits you're takin 60-75 hp of damage from a mob who can't even see you and is hitting you on a 6. Harry supposedly does 150s in AoE with no crits?

... seems unbalancing from my point of view is all I'm saying

Aesop


ps additionally DnD doesn't have a enhancement system that compounds the problems hp differences

[bandyman1]

I don't think that toughness enhancements should be given to any other class. Things are fine with warrior classes getting the enhancements. It sets their durability apart from the other classes, and that's how it should be.

Rangers are a scout class; this is already reflected in thier feat, skill set, and lower than warrior hit die. They are good combatants, but they have skills and abilities to make up for the fact that they are not as durable as a fighter, paladin, or barbarian.

The only thing that needs to change in regards to toughness IMHO, is the racial dwarven line. I don't mind dwarves having access to a racial toughness enhancement line, but it should not stack with the warrior lines.

Just my 2cp.

[Vhlad]

Except they don't need it the most and the super high benefits they are getting from an enhancement that gives more than 2.5 times the feat benefit is ridiculous.

MOST enhancements are multiple times stronger than feats.
i.e. str +1 is an epic feat
so fighters str III is 3.0 times the feat benefit

dodge is 1 AC
pally defense aura is 4 AC, AND doesn't require dex 13, and is given to the entire party
so that's 4.0 times the feat benefit and more

Comparing toughness IV to the feat and saying toughness IV is sooo overpowered is well, not being fair. Most of the enhancements are like that!

[Aesop]

MOST enhancements are multiple times stronger than feats.
i.e. str +1 is an epic feat
so fighters str III is 3.0 times the feat benefit

dodge is 1 AC
pally defense aura is 4 AC, AND doesn't require dex 13, and is given to the entire party
so that's 4.0 times the feat benefit and more

Comparing toughness IV to the feat and saying toughness IV is sooo overpowered is well, not being fair. Most of the enhancements are like that!

Ok you compared an "enhancement" of a Feat with an Enhacnement of a made up ability to replace a progressive class ability... that is what isn't fair.

at level 20 the TOughness Feat gives 23 HP... each Enhancement line is currently giving 50... that is silly. An enhancement should make some thing a little bit better not b low the original out of the water.

Aesop

[bobbryan2]

The problem isn't really with melees having 50 more hp than say rogues and bards. That's actually all fine and good. The problem I see is Dwarven rogues having 68 more hp than a wf rogue, 84 more than a halfling, and 100 more than an elf. (provided those classes don't take the toughness feat, and who would for only 18 hp)

Dwarven toughness just needs to be removed, or set to 20 hp max. It's totally overpowered right now.

[Frodo_Lives]

I think that dwarven enhancements are far and away best in the game. I recently rolled up a new bard/fighter that I would have really liked to make human. But looking at the math, a dwarf made a significantly better choice simply because of the dwarven toughness enhancements.

For a d6 hp class like a bard who wants to melee those extra 50 hps makes the difference between a really good character and a merely passible one. I have a lvl 14 drow spellsinger who has a total of 220 hps. That isn't nearly enough to melee without getting wacked around. Throw in the other dwarven enhancements and it becomes very difficult to justify, min max wise, making that character anything other than dwarf.

Some classes or combos of classes you can get away with less min maxing than others. But to make a melee character who is a bit squishy (Ranger, Bard, Rogue) you almost need to min max or be gimped.

[Vhlad]

Ok you compared an "enhancement" of a Feat with an Enhacnement of a made up ability to replace a progressive class ability... that is what isn't fair.

at level 20 the TOughness Feat gives 23 HP... each Enhancement line is currently giving 50... that is silly. An enhancement should make some thing a little bit better not b low the original out of the water.

Aesop

ALL enhancements are made up progressive class/race based abilities, and many of them at end tier are multiple times stonger than feats. Some require feats and some dont, but they're still all progressive class/race based, and toughness IV is not overpowered compared to the rest.

If you want to say
"at level 20 the TOughness Feat gives 23 HP... each Enhancement line is currently giving 50... that is silly"

Then I'll respond with:
"at level 20 the dodge feat gives 1 AC.... the paladin line is currently giving 4.... that is silly"
"at level 22 the epic feat str gives 1 str.... the fighter line is currently giving 3... that is silly"

The enhancements inflate everything. They're all better than feats. They all blow feats out of the water.

Restricting the enhancements by class & race is what creates relative imbalance. They should overhaul and move to stat/skill/BaB/spell/feat/etc based requirements instead.

[bobbryan2]

I don't think that toughness enhancements should be given to any other class. Things are fine with warrior classes getting the enhancements. It sets their durability apart from the other classes, and that's how it should be.

Rangers are a scout class; this is already reflected in thier feat, skill set, and lower than warrior hit die. They are good combatants, but they have skills and abilities to make up for the fact that they are not as durable as a fighter, paladin, or barbarian.

The only thing that needs to change in regards to toughness IMHO, is the racial dwarven line. I don't mind dwarves having access to a racial toughness enhancement line, but it should not stack with the warrior lines.

Just my 2cp.

The problem isn't Dwarven fighters... the problem is Dwarven Rogues, Rangers, Wizards, and Bards.

[bobbryan2]

ALL enhancements are made up progressive class/race based abilities, and many of them at end tier are multiple times stonger than feats. Some require feats and some dont, but they're still all progressive class/race based, and toughness IV is not overpowered compared to the rest.

If you want to say
"at level 20 the TOughness Feat gives 23 HP... each Enhancement line is currently giving 50... that is silly"

Then I'll respond with:
"at level 20 the dodge feat gives 1 AC.... the paladin line is currently giving 4.... that is silly"
"at level 22 the epic feat str gives 1 str.... the fighter line is currently giving 3... that is silly"

The enhancements inflate everything. They're all better than feats. They all blow feats out of the water.

Restricting the enhancements by class & race is what creates relative imbalance. They should overhaul and move to stat/skill/BaB/spell/feat/etc based requirements instead.

Epic Strength can be received by any epic character. Fighters can all take Fighter Strength III, regardless of race. Anyone can take Dodge, and any Paladin can up their auras.

Only Dwarves can take dwarven toughness.