Toughness!!!

[Vhlad]

Epic Strength can be received by any epic character. Fighters can all take Fighter Strength III, regardless of race. Anyone can take Dodge, and any Paladin can up their auras.

Only Dwarves can take dwarven toughness.

Replace epic str and fighters str III with with epic dex and elf/halfling dex II.

Anyone can take epic dex.
Only elf/halfling can take elf/halfling dex.

Anyway, removing dwarf toughness at this point is going to create an uproar.

Right now it's a tough decision between dwarf or halfling rogue. Do you go for the toughness or the nice halfling rogue enhancements?
For wizard you lose the +2 int or cha for drow vs dwarf.

All the people who specifically made dwarf for toughness at the sacrifice of +2 to their main stat would become gimped if dwarf toughness is removed.

[Aesop]

ALL enhancements are made up progressive class/race based abilities, and many of them at end tier are multiple times stonger than feats. Some require feats and some dont, but they're still all progressive class/race based, and toughness IV is not overpowered compared to the rest.

If you want to say
"at level 20 the TOughness Feat gives 23 HP... each Enhancement line is currently giving 50... that is silly"

Then I'll respond with:
"at level 20 the dodge feat gives 1 AC.... the paladin line is currently giving 4.... that is silly"
"at level 22 the epic feat str gives 1 str.... the fighter line is currently giving 3... that is silly"

The enhancements inflate everything. They're all better than feats. They all blow feats out of the water.

Restricting the enhancements by class & race is what creates relative imbalance. They should overhaul and move to stat/skill/BaB/spell/feat/etc based requirements instead.

but you aren't comparing the same things. You are comparing a Feat and its associated enhancement with a Feat and a different class Feature (and its enhancement).

Pally Aura is in there to replace lost features the enhancements are to make it a progressive level based thing.

Dodge is a Feat... two different things


Toughness is a Feat that gives x Toughness enhancements give 2.5x... and add in dwarven toughness and you get 5x.... its a touch outa whack. Comparing two different things that don't relate to each other nevermind the topic isn't gonna convince me in anyway that giving an extra 100 hp advantage to any character build doesn't through the balance off

Aesop

[Vhlad]

but you aren't comparing the same things. You are comparing a Feat and its associated enhancement with a Feat and a different class Feature (and its enhancement).

Naw, it's not a feat and its associated enhancement.

It's a class/racial enhancement with a feat requirement.

If it was a feat and its associated enhancement then they would let ANYONE with the feat take it.

[bobbryan2]

Replace epic str and fighters str III with with epic dex and elf/halfling dex II.

Anyone can take epic dex.
Only elf/halfling can take elf/halfling dex.

Elf/Halfling dex aren't based off a feat. Remember, Dwarves are getting Dwarven CON II already. It's not like Elves and Halflings also get Elven Dodge I, II, III and IV. Dwarves already have a +32(16 for WF) HP on top of any other race, adding 50 on top of that is overkill.

If that were the case, then no AC build would be anything but an elf or halfling, because you simply can't make up for the 5 extra dodge halflings would get.

AC is also less useful in that instance than HP, because it takes a specialized build to even use armor class in this game, while every class needs HP.

[Borror0]

Better yet put Toughness back to 5 extra HPs at each level of the enhancement and then you wouldn't have such a big gap between Melees and not (and Dwarves and not) and things would be far more reasonable.

That seems like the best idea, but the Shroud was clearly design with toughness in mind on higher difficulty than Normal....

[Aesop]

That seems like the best idea, but the Shroud was clearly design with toughness in mind on higher difficulty than Normal....

Yeah MTs is probably the way to go. Tone down Toughness to 5 per level. 40hp for a Dwarven froontliner isn't nearly as bad as 100.


Aesop

[Vhlad]

Well, when it was 5 5 5 5, for 1, 2, 3, 4 AP, no one took the higher tiers. 4 AP for 5 hp is so weak.

I'd spend 3% of my AP at level 16 for 10 hp and stop, rather then spend another 28% to get 30 hp more.

Although they havent added many enhancements since level caps, so people may not have much better to spend their points on now, but 5 5 5 5 is not even as good as a single feat at level 20.

Look at the other enhancements. Even the skill +4 ones are better than a single feat.

[Aesop]

Well, when it was 5 5 5 5, for 1, 2, 3, 4 AP, no one took the higher tiers. 4 AP for 5 hp is so weak.

I'd spend 3% of my AP at level 16 for 10 hp and stop, rather then spend another 28% to get 30 hp more.

Although they havent added many enhancements since level caps, so people may not have much better to spend their points on now, but 5 5 5 5 is not even as good as a single feat at level 20.

Look at the other enhancements. Even the skill +4 ones are better than a single feat.

well don't take the top level then... I don't take the top levels of any of the skill trees. heck I don't take over 2

I kinda wish they'd reduce the cost on the Skills actually to 1 1 2 2 as opposed to 1 2 3 4 cause that is expensive for 4 points for 1 skill point...no what I mean


you could make it 3 5 7 10 extra HP for toughness enhancments... 50 bonus for top tier Dwarf Frontliner still ain't as over the top as 100. and 25 is at least in the realm of what an extra Toughness feat does.

Aesop

[LeLoric]

same thing with most casters not taking the top spell point tiers.

dwarven toughness is way overpowered though

the gap is too high between dwarves and non dwarves with the classes that dont get toughness feats

and these are the classes that taking dwarf is supposed to gimp not make better

[oronisi]

well don't take the top level then... I don't take the top levels of any of the skill trees. heck I don't take over 2

I kinda wish they'd reduce the cost on the Skills actually to 1 1 2 2 as opposed to 1 2 3 4 cause that is expensive for 4 points for 1 skill point...no what I mean


you could make it 3 5 7 10 extra HP for toughness enhancments... 50 bonus for top tier Dwarf Frontliner still ain't as over the top as 100. and 25 is at least in the realm of what an extra Toughness feat does.

Aesop

I like the 3 5 7 10 idea for toughness.

To compare the toughness enhancement to all skill enhancements for a moment, for the toughness enhancements, you get 5 HP per action point put in. For all skill enhancements and most other enhancements in DDO, you get decreasing reward for extra points put in. Skill bonus - search gives 1 for 1 AP, 1 more for 2 AP, 1 more for 3 AP, then 1 more for 4 AP.

So thats a whooping +4 search for 10 Action Points. Where-as, you can spend 10 APs to get +50 HP...hm

I actually think the Toughness Enhancements are too powerful, and the skill boost enhancement method is too weak. I'd like to see some middle ground somewhere for all.

~35 HP for 10 AP, +7 skill for 10AP is what I'd like to see.

Actually, that's easy to implement.
+5hp +5hp +10hp +15hp = 35hp
+1 +1 +2 +3 = +7 to a skill

[Vhlad]

I'd be pretty upset if I made my rogue, wizard, bard, sorc, or ranger dwarf for the toughness and then they turned around and nerfed it.

Right now it makes it a bit of a choice. Like, I'd probably never make my wizard or sorc dwarf (I'd pick drow or *maybe* WF), but a ranger or rogue, it's a toss up right now.
The toughness is nice, but halflings get good rogue enhancements in M7, and their saving throws are nice, along with the +1AC and +1 hit/+1 damage to make up for the -2 str. And if you go finesse/dex based then elf is maybe better for the rapier attack & damage II.
Ranger... again, tough. elf or halfling or human or dwarf.

They take dwarf toughness away and that just removes options. There would be absolutely no reason to bother with a dwarf wizard/sorc/bard/ranger/rogue.

Id rather see them throw away barb, fighter, paladin toughness. Make that one available to anyone with the toughness feat, and maybe add a base attack bonus requirement to the tiers, or a min base con requirement to either it or to the dwarf one, but keep the dwarf one in tact at this stage in the game.

[bobbryan2]

I'd be pretty upset if I made my rogue, wizard, bard, sorc, or ranger dwarf for the toughness and then they turned around and nerfed it.

Right now it makes it a bit of a choice. Like, I'd probably never make my wizard or sorc dwarf (I'd pick drow or *maybe* WF), but a ranger or rogue, it's a toss up right now.
The toughness is nice, but halflings get good rogue enhancements in M7, and their saving throws are nice, along with the +1AC and +1 hit/+1 damage to make up for the -2 str. And if you go finesse/dex based then elf is maybe better for the rapier attack & damage II.
Ranger... again, tough. elf or halfling or human or dwarf.

They take dwarf toughness away and that just removes options. There would be absolutely no reason to bother with a dwarf wizard/sorc/bard/ranger/rogue.

Id rather see them throw away barb, fighter, paladin toughness. Make that one available to anyone with the toughness feat, and maybe add a base attack bonus requirement to the tiers, or a min base con requirement to either it or to the dwarf one, but keep the dwarf one in tact at this stage in the game.

The only reason you don't see more dwarven wizards and sorcs is because most people figure that since they're already taking the cha hit, they might as well grab the self-healing.

Potentially being down 100 hp as a halfling rogue vs a dwarven rogue is almost a 50% hit to total hitpoint. 50% is waaaaay too much. Going from 250 to 350 due to Dwarven con II, toughness feat, and toughness enhancements is ridiculous.

You have to at least acknowledge that the other "choices" you mention aren't the equivalent of a 40% increase in lasting power. If they leave it the way it is now, they should at least change the name from Dwarven Toughness to Dwarven Juggernautism.

[Borror0]

Yeah MTs is probably the way to go. Tone down Toughness to 5 per level. 40hp for a Dwarven froontliner isn't nearly as bad as 100.

Yes, but it's far from a perfect solution.

For example, in the Shroud Elite, a 500 HP is having an hard time in part 4 & 5. Not to a point where he can't fight, but it makes him wish for more HP. Just think of how a 400 HP tank feels in there... or even lower. Ok, this is Shroud Elite and it's a special case... but you get the idea. Quests are designed with Toughness in mind now. Otherwise, how do you challenge players?

[bobbryan2]

Yes, but it's far from a perfect solution.

For example, in the Shroud Elite, a 500 HP is having an hard time in part 4 & 5. Not to a point where he can't fight, but it makes him wish for more HP. Just think of how a 400 HP tank feels in there... or even lower. Ok, this is Shroud Elite and it's a special case... but you get the idea. Quests are designed with Toughness in mind now. Otherwise, how do you challenge players?

Uhhh... you would decrease the descrepancy in HP between builds and then reduce the DPS output of the Fiend to the point that the people that had 500 hp (and now have 400) have the same lasting power as they had with 500. At that point, the person that was at 300 and stayed at 300 might actually be able to keep up.

I understand it's never that easy... but it should be.

[Aesop]

Yes, but it's far from a perfect solution.

For example, in the Shroud Elite, a 500 HP is having an hard time in part 4 & 5. Not to a point where he can't fight, but it makes him wish for more HP. Just think of how a 400 HP tank feels in there... or even lower. Ok, this is Shroud Elite and it's a special case... but you get the idea. Quests are designed with Toughness in mind now. Otherwise, how do you challenge players?

so drop Harry's average Damage per hit down by 15 points and make the changes.


Aesop

[Borror0]

I understand it's never that easy... but it should be.

Yeah, my point is not that it's a bad idea... but rather that it's not a simple fix.

Then you must factor the reason people went dwarf on their ranger, rogue, bard, sorcerer or wizard... you might have to give them something depending on how much Toughness will be worth taking at that time. I guess that's something we'll have to witness ourselves...

EDIT:

so drop Harry's average Damage per hit down by 15 points and make the changes.

It's not only Harry.

[Snoggy]

The Toughness enhancements are already in the game, and are currently primarily used by the race/class that already should have the most HP (Dwarven Barbarians)

Many of the barbarian build experts on these forums tend to not bother with Toughness, and the ones that do don't spend a whole lot of action points on toughness enhancements. Barbarian hit points (and I've had this detailed very clearly for me) tend to top 500 from avid use of Action Points on Rage enhancements. Rage is a whole other enchilada.

- the mobs are already adjusted for this, which causes all other race/class combo's to fall behind.

The solution to the problem is not inflation.

The difference on a Barbarian? Say, from 450-500, not much of a difference. The difference on a Ranger? From 280-330, that is significant.

Like I said, the barbarian build experts on these forums have already shown me that Barbarians are getting their hp edge from other things.

Fighters use and abuse these enhancements and feats. But fighters have the room for that. They have a lot of extra feat slots. And they have no prestige enhancments so they have quite a bit of Action Points they can spend to focus on these. So a lot of fighters DO invest heavily in this stuff. Barbarians though? I keep getting told and listed and demonstrated how most of the barbarian advantages in the end-game all come from Rage and its enhancements.

And if that's truly the case, I really have a problem with COMPENSATING for Rage's power by giving other classes TOUGHNESS boosts.

[Snoggy]

ps additionally DnD doesn't have a enhancement system that compounds the problems hp differences

This is probably the biggest reason why I have those long-term concerns. The PnP game doesn't have this. The MMO does. And it fits an MMO design. That extra chunk of HPs is already being put to the test in some of the content (i.e. the shroud raid). And that raid plays the most like an EQ raid of any of this game's raids. It comes down to DPS and Survivability vs. the mob's DPS and hit points. It's a really really typical tank and spank kind of fight. And if we did as was suggested earlier (put toughness back to 5 hp per feat) it would alter the pit fiend encounter. (So maybe that is the solution? Maybe we can derail this train from that path?)

I dunnno. I know my example isn't a perfect fit. As someone else mentioned, it's just 50 hps not the thousands of hit points you might see in a different MMO. It's just ... I don't see how inflating wizard and rogue hit points is a good thing for this game in the long-run.

[Vhlad]

If they open up the fighter/barb/paladin toughness line to any class with the toughness feat (and possibly add a BAB requirement, so for example toughness I-IV would require BAB 1, 5, 10, and 15, so a lvl 15 fighter/ranger/paladin/barb could take IV, but a rogue/bard/monk/cleric would cap at III until lvl 20, and a wizard/sorc would have II at 10, III at 20, and IV at 30).

Then, they could remove the stacking ability of the dwarf toughness line, but improve it slightly over the other one. i.e. remove the toughness feat requirement from it, and/or have it give 75hp instead of 50 at IV.

We're still inflating something, but that's what enhancements do. At least this way the difference is potentially 25 instead of 100, and someone who made a dwarf specifically for toughness is not SOL.

It seems messy though. Really, almost any change is going to be messy this late in the game. I wouldn't care if they had a way to respec, but they don't, so character nerfs/changes make people sad. If turbine had some kind of "reincarnation" respec. i.e. delete/reroll character, start over at level 1 with the same name, but all inventory/bank, and favor (and possibly tomes used), friends list, etc is transferred to your reincarnation (bound loot remains bound), then I wouldn't mind so much. It's not so hard to hit cap. But it took 60+ queen raids to get a torc, 60+ titans to get chat ring/belt. I really don't want to spend 8 months re-grinding the same stuff to replace a character. It becomes work, not fun. But I WOULD have fun rerolling characters and going through all the old content again if I didn't have to worry about getting back year+ work of raid loot grinding.

[Snoggy]

Quests are designed with Toughness in mind now. Otherwise, how do you challenge players?

Which is what scares me about the future content of the game if the OP's request were granted.

Bobbyran makes some very interesting points in this thread. Notably:

AC is also less useful in that instance than HP, because it takes a specialized build to even use armor class in this game, while every class needs HP.

I think that gets to the heart of why I'm so reluctant to agree with the suggestion to give every class better access to increased hit points.