Toughness!!!

[Darth_Sizzle]

Please, for the love of the game and all that is Holy (or Pure Good), give every character who takes a Toughness feat access to the Toughness enhancements!

As it stands, this is greatest cause of imbalance between character builds - 50 extra HP is currently equal to more than what an extra 6 Con would give you...

Who's with me?

[Uska]

Not me I dont need more hp to heal on more people

[Hvymetal]

Agreed, Toughness enhancement line should be opened to those that took the feat. Or at least if not that Warforged should also have access to the Toughness line racially since they also are a Con race as are Dwarves.

[Borror0]

Give every character who takes a Toughness feat access to the Toughness enhancements!

Who's with me?

I'm with you.
Same for Power Attack and Improved Combat Expertise.

50 HP is just too wide of a gap. Give something to dwarf back for it (and too WFs for PA), but fix this.

Not me I dont need more hp to heal on more people

You like the squishy rogue/rangers dying all the time? (I know it's not always the case, but in PuGs you'll meet those.)

More HP means less death, means easier to heal.

[tenga]

i agree that wf should have teh racial toughness enhancement, but i believe besides that it should stay the way it is. for no other reason than it sets classes apart from eachother, and keeps every class unique

[Snoggy]

Please, for the love of the game and all that is Holy (or Pure Good), give every character who takes a Toughness feat access to the Toughness enhancements!

As it stands, this is greatest cause of imbalance between character builds - 50 extra HP is currently equal to more than what an extra 6 Con would give you...

Who's with me?

From a long-term game evolution stand-point, I'm not really in favor of this idea because of the potential harm it could bring.

I'm primarily thinking of my experience with Everquest here. And how Hit Points escalated EQ's end-game into something completely ... well ... ridiculous. It just got out of hand. There was a point during one expansion (Luclin) where the response to player hit points and complete heal spells and raid DPS being so over the top that the boss encounters in that game were tuned with milllions of hit points. Some fights took almost an hour of just standing there beating on the boss. By the time I left the game (can't even remember the expansion, but it was like 2 or 3 after Planes of Power) ... tanks had over 10,000 hit points.

Now I'm not saying your suggestion will lead to that. What I'm saying is ... it just reminds me of what it was like in EQ. Hit Points were pretty much the only measuring stick of worth in certain aspects of the end-game. And EVERY character, no matter what the class, was pigeon-holed into getting hit point first, other stats second. And it just got boring.

I think your suggestion opens the door for making toughness feats (and in turn enhancements) almost mandatory in classes that normally aren't supposed to focus on hit points or hardiness. And then the standard design response to that kind of across the board hit point inflation is ... mobs that have a lot more hit points, hit a lot harder, and resist a lot of magical spells.

[Borror0]

I think your suggestion opens the door for making toughness feats (and in turn enhancements) almost mandatory in classes that normally aren't supposed to focus on hit points or hardiness.

Right now, if you're a ranger, bard or rogue... you're better going dwarf to get a decent amount of HP.

[Xalted_Vol]

I am totally

[gpk]

I'm not sure I like the idea of opening the toughness enhancement lines to non BAB 1:1 classes (idk why rangers were left out, too strong?)

I think it rewards the primary combatant classes for being just that, primary combatants.

Lord know a BAB 1:1 aint much of a perk in DDO, if at all, what with slower attack speeds and DP clickies for the other clases if they actually need the AB boost(should be fixed ASAP). Right now a lower BAB usually makes you a better meleer due to the botched BAB15+ swing rates.
A BAB 1:1 class should be a better straight fighter than other classes and I think the toughness enh line adds to that.

I think a stronger case would be to drop Dwarven toughness enhancements and open it up Rangers.

And yes there is the danger that it would lead to further mob inflation across the board wich would totally defeat the purpose; if mobs are boosted to negate your extra HP then all you did was waste a feat+APs, in which case it would just be betetr to remove it from all classes and not boost mobs.

I'm not 100% sold either way to be honest, but I am heavily leaning towards keeping it for the BAB 1:1 classes only.

[Twerpp]

Eh... then melees should get a greater amount for their enhancement.

[gpk]

Eh... then melees should get a greater amount for their enhancement.

Well it might come out to the same, the relative difference would be the same except more than likely mobs would get a boost to compensate which again defeats the purpose.

[Clay]

why not just make every race and class the same... then the game would be more fun!

[Vandos]

I started a thread on this a while back and got a lot of negativity from players who dont seem to think a rogue or ranger should have toughness and as far as dwarves go they claimed dwarves are a naturally tough race. I agreed, they are and that is proven by the higher con a dwarf gets. But one dwarf is no tougher than another with the same class/con score. The difference comes in to play when the take the Toughness feat. No dwarf gets xtra hp without the feat so the way I see it is if you take the feat then it should open the enhancement line.

All feats that have enhancement lines should open that enhancement line when you take the feat. Clerics with lowered maximize costs etc.

The action point system and enhancement lines are Turbines creation and creates a gap between races that was already covered in base D&D by the increased con of the "tougher" races.

Give the feat enhancement lines to any character that takes the prerequisite feat and scrap dwarven toughness.

Dwarves having two enhancement lines for toughness is in my opinion wrong. At the very least to open the second toughness line should require taking a second toughness feat. Dwarves take a hit to charisma yet there are tons of dwarven paladins, sorcerers and bards all because of the racial toughness line and characters taking the toughness feat they wouldnt necessarily take if they were a different race.

The games is turning into Dungeons & Dwarves Online.

[Sandmek]

i ve seen enough from a clerics stand point and a fighters stand point to know 50 hp is not gonna make a difference

[Twerpp]

I started a thread on this a while back and got a lot of negativity from players who dont seem to think a rogue or ranger should have toughness and as far as dwarves go they claimed dwarves are a naturally tough race. I agreed, they are and that is proven by the higher con a dwarf gets. But one dwarf is no tougher than another with the same class/con score. The difference comes in to play when the take the Toughness feat. No dwarf gets xtra hp without the feat so the way I see it is if you take the feat then it should open the enhancement line.

All feats that have enhancement lines should open that enhancement line when you take the feat. Clerics with lowered maximize costs etc.

The action point system and enhancement lines are Turbines creation and creates a gap between races that was already covered in base D&D by the increased con of the "tougher" races.

Give the feat enhancement lines to any character that takes the prerequisite feat and scrap dwarven toughness.

Dwarves having two enhancement lines for toughness is in my opinion wrong. At the very least to open the second toughness line should require taking a second toughness feat. Dwarves take a hit to charisma yet there are tons of dwarven paladins, sorcerers and bards all because of the racial toughness line and characters taking the toughness feat they wouldnt necessarily take if they were a different race.

The games is turning into Dungeons & Dwarves Online.

Certainly EVERY SINGLE great player is absolutely rolling a stable of Dwarves because they are that great. The 50 more hit points if you take a toughness, wow how could anyone dream of playing anything else on Dungeons and Dwarves online?

[Emili]

I started a thread on this a while back and got a lot of negativity from players who dont seem to think a rogue or ranger should have toughness and as far as dwarves go they claimed dwarves are a naturally tough race. I agreed, they are and that is proven by the higher con a dwarf gets. But one dwarf is no tougher than another with the same class/con score. The difference comes in to play when the take the Toughness feat. No dwarf gets xtra hp without the feat so the way I see it is if you take the feat then it should open the enhancement line.

All feats that have enhancement lines should open that enhancement line when you take the feat. Clerics with lowered maximize costs etc.

The action point system and enhancement lines are Turbines creation and creates a gap between races that was already covered in base D&D by the increased con of the "tougher" races.

Give the feat enhancement lines to any character that takes the prerequisite feat and scrap dwarven toughness.

Dwarves having two enhancement lines for toughness is in my opinion wrong. At the very least to open the second toughness line should require taking a second toughness feat. Dwarves take a hit to charisma yet there are tons of dwarven paladins, sorcerers and bards all because of the racial toughness line and characters taking the toughness feat they wouldnt necessarily take if they were a different race.

The games is turning into Dungeons & Dwarves Online.

While I do not think it game breaking and you do not see as many dwarven casters and such... it is a perk for any of them who do melee... 50hp really is not that much in a clerics mind unless the character just is not holding up at all thus comes the balancing which comes with it... This is just one reason why so many fighters, pallys and rangers end up being dwarves - that typical enhancement line frees a feat slot in it's aspect when compared to another race... ties up AP's but with so many junk enhancements adds a good one to thier ilk.

In DND:

Epic Toughness [Epic]
Benefit
You gain +30 hit points.

Special
You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

One of the things which has always crossed my mind... is why is this enhancement line so out of wack with the others and so cheap at that? For 10ap you get the equal of 1.6 times an Epic feat... One of the most annoying things about the game to me lately is the fact that you must scrutinize and be more picky when building melee outside dwarves to adjust for some things like toughness enhancements they get. I mean seriously a human melee with an extra feat? Well if you were going to use that feat for a second toughness then you should had just built a dwarf now shouldn't you have? Eventually, all these extremes are going to build such an influx of inbalance within the game that we'll see less creativity from the player base in race/class mixture and it will become stale and boring.

I do not think it was a wise choice to put the enhancement into the game at all as it pretty much makes the feat a standard must have for many fighters and pallys... Barbarians do not worry about it quite as much just due to thier enormous cons ... however at the 7 feat marker I can see where if the enhancement followed the feat ... everyone would practically have it. The game is now starting to reach the point where it is just an HP vs mitigation war... I do not think escalating the matter is any solution.

[TommyBoy]

Please, for the love of the game and all that is Holy (or Pure Good), give every character who takes a Toughness feat access to the Toughness enhancements!

As it stands, this is greatest cause of imbalance between character builds - 50 extra HP is currently equal to more than what an extra 6 Con would give you...

Who's with me?

no.

As somoe who has two wizard with bad con I think its a bad idea to do that. And by bad one has a 6 the other started with an 8. It would over power some classes.

[BLAKROC]

Agreed, Toughness enhancement line should be opened to those that took the feat. Or at least if not that Warforged should also have access to the Toughness line racially since they also are a Con race as are Dwarves.

Then I want all the wf blanket immunities

[Darth_Sizzle]

From a long-term game evolution stand-point, I'm not really in favor of this idea because of the potential harm it could bring.

I'm primarily thinking of my experience with Everquest here. And how Hit Points escalated EQ's end-game into something completely ... well ... ridiculous. It just got out of hand. There was a point during one expansion (Luclin) where the response to player hit points and complete heal spells and raid DPS being so over the top that the boss encounters in that game were tuned with milllions of hit points. Some fights took almost an hour of just standing there beating on the boss. By the time I left the game (can't even remember the expansion, but it was like 2 or 3 after Planes of Power) ... tanks had over 10,000 hit points.

Now I'm not saying your suggestion will lead to that. What I'm saying is ... it just reminds me of what it was like in EQ. Hit Points were pretty much the only measuring stick of worth in certain aspects of the end-game. And EVERY character, no matter what the class, was pigeon-holed into getting hit point first, other stats second. And it just got boring.

I think your suggestion opens the door for making toughness feats (and in turn enhancements) almost mandatory in classes that normally aren't supposed to focus on hit points or hardiness. And then the standard design response to that kind of across the board hit point inflation is ... mobs that have a lot more hit points, hit a lot harder, and resist a lot of magical spells.

The Toughness enhancements are already in the game, and are currently primarily used by the race/class that already should have the most HP (Dwarven Barbarians) - the mobs are already adjusted for this, which causes all other race/class combo's to fall behind. I find it amusing some people in this thread say 50 HP doesn't make a difference and others say it would make a character overpowered - those are the two opposite extremes. The difference on a Barbarian? Say, from 450-500, not much of a difference. The difference on a Ranger? From 280-330, that is significant.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Not me I dont need more hp to heal on more people

Give EVERYONE more HP's to heal.

Ill gladly heal the sorc with 300 HP's than raise teh sorc with 120 every five minutes.