finessable q-staves... again...

[cdbd3rd]

Finally, to give a real-world example that any Developer would if they had time, a quarterstaff is a strength-based weapon. There is no twitch of the wrist or very sly finger play involved in the quarterstaff (unless you're a monk, which is a special style of fighting UNLIKE finesse weapon fighting style), and for all intensive purposes a quarterstaff is about Strength + Speed = WHACK. It's not about "Hey, I caught you swiftly before you could react." No, it's an Over-power and Counter Attack Weapon. That is Strength, not Dexterity. Rob Roy (the movie) is a classic example of how an over-power attack works vs a finesse weapon.

Never actually trained with a quarterstaff, eh?

A staff that is used as "strength + speed = whack" is called a great club. Staff work involves speed, yes. But the true skill applied to a staff comes from attack angles, maneuvering, and body positioning - not sheer brute strength.

For what credence it applies to my opinion, I have used a staff mainly to help my boy train. He attained his Jeet Kune Do brown sash with training in staff and escrima before we ran short of money and put his classes on hold -- so I do have a modicum of real world knowledge in the use of a staff.

I won't debate whether or not rapiers should or shouldn't be, as I haven't used em. I have watched them in competitions, and they sure LOOK finessed - but that whole debate is outside the topic of this thread. ...and the one(s) before it.

There have been a couple responses that say basically the finessing of a staff is mainly for character flavor. I think that is one of the more accurate statements so far in both threads I've been in now about this. A staff, finessed or not, is never going to be the weapon of choice to bring down a mob boss, or nuke devils... It's just a weapon choice, flavored a little closer to realism.

Tis my opinion, YMMV.

[Ustice]

Normally, I am not really for changes that go contrary to PnP rules; however, I think that this would be good. Actually, this is something that I have used in PnP. When used in 2 hands, the quarterstaff can be used with the Finesse feat. It's too big to be wielded in one hand with any finesse, but two is another matter.

[Snoggy]

I already posted a better solution than changing the core rules up above.

Hmmmm. Rereading my post, maybe I worded it wrong. When I said "people" I wasn't trying to single you out. And if it seems that way, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intent. You did indeed post a fully thought out suggestion. Kudos.

I was just speaking more in a general sense. Because I see those two, I guess, commentaries, crop up in a LOT of different discusions on these forums you know? It could be anything from Paladin enhancements to loot tables to druids and half-orcs. I just see a lot of folks say "well it's not in PnP, so it shouldn't be in DDO." And then the counter is "DDO already abandonded PnP."

There has to be a much more managable middle ground between the two, because PnP rules have merit, but breaking or bending PnP rules also has merit. Be it a discussion about quarterstaves or paladins or whatever.

[Kistilan]

Hmmmm. Rereading my post, maybe I worded it wrong. When I said "people" I wasn't trying to single you out. And if it seems that way, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intent. You did indeed post a fully thought out suggestion. Kudos.

I was just speaking more in a general sense. Because I see those two, I guess, commentaries, crop up in a LOT of different discusions on these forums you know? It could be anything from Paladin enhancements to loot tables to druids and half-orcs. I just see a lot of folks say "well it's not in PnP, so it shouldn't be in DDO." And then the counter is "DDO already abandonded PnP."

There has to be a much more managable middle ground between the two, because PnP rules have merit, but breaking or bending PnP rules also has merit. Be it a discussion about quarterstaves or paladins or whatever.

No worries -- not offended. At least you didn't say I have never trained & wielded a staff of any type.

And I believe in 55 Days we'll be seeing a lot of DDO-influences in 4th Edition, believe it or not. I read through the intended changes whether it's game mechanics or ecology or player classes and races -- many of these changes are arguably from Eberron and DDO play. In other words, I agree there has to be a middle ground on some of these obvious problems.

Reflecting on the past, I recall a time when Bow Strength was available for anyone who specialized in a Bow Type (non-xbow of course). When 3.0 made it Ranger-Only, there was a huge fuss by older 1st and 2nd Edit players.

[DNDJESS]

There has to be a much more managable middle ground between the two, because PnP rules have merit, but breaking or bending PnP rules also has merit. Be it a discussion about quarterstaves or paladins or whatever.

The 'managable middle ground' should be what is best for DDO. When a change is considered, I think you should compare the proposed change to the PnP rules, and add up the positives and negatives of implementing the rules each way. If the proposed change is clearly an improvement to the PnP rules, then there is no question that the change should be made. But if there are as many positives with the PnP rules as there are to the proposed change, or even if it's very close, they should err on the side of PnP rules.

But for this issue, I don't think it's close. Making the staff finessable is clearly an improvement.

[ehcsztein]

The only reason that I could see for wanting q.staff available as a finesse weapon would be to play a 2 stat monk instead of a 3 stat monk. *shrug*

Make it an exotic weapon feat or just a feat "Greater finesse q.staff" or some such silliness?

Realistically I just don't see a valid reason to even begin reworking the code to accomplish it

[Invalid_86]

There are several holes in the "make staffs finessable" arguments.

"Hey what about all of those cool martial arts attacks monks can make with staffs?"

There is a bonus in the system that lets a Monk do cool rapid martial arts attacks with a staff- Flurry of Blows.

"You should get some sort of bonus in combat from Dex!"

You do. The ability to use a staff as a dual weapon via the two weapon fighting feat chains, which require a 15-19 Dex but also allow you to almost double the amount of attacks you get in a round. That lets non-Monks do those cool double ended whack! whack! whack! attacks with both ends of the staff.

"What about sweep attacks? Wouldn't acrobats and monks be great at those when using a staff?"

Actually yes- but so would any other skilled staff user. Look up trip attacks in the 3.5 rules.

"Shouldn't acrobats get an attack bonus due to their fighting style?"

Still no real answer as to why here. Staffs don't really help with acrobatics, there are no abilities that an acrobat should get that a staff specialist Fighter shouldn't get, and it's nowhere to be found in the DnD rules.
Well I guess there is one answer- "I just want them to be finessable. Why are you disagreeing with me???"

A staff that is used as "strength + speed = whack" is called a great club. Staff work involves speed, yes. But the true skill applied to a staff comes from attack angles, maneuvering, and body positioning - not sheer brute strength.

A greatclub is far larger at one end and does nearly much damage. Many non-martial artists would simply use a staff as a two handed whacking tool in a pinch- thus it is a simple weapon.

Have any of you equipped a staff with a level 16 high strength melee class? I just did with my 16 Barbarian. It's definitely being used as a 2-hand weapon, the attack definitely involves a lot of finesse, and it is by far the coolest looking attack graphics in the game!!

That is because the animation for the weapon- like many weapons in DDO- is incorrect.

[Ghoste]

You, with a higher strength, hit someone with something that exists in a Newtonian (sp) universe, you will do more damage than someone who is not as strong. No contest. No debate. Screw 'finessible' weapons. Screw 'fighting style'. You and I, equally trained, with shrimp forks, stab each other for 5 seconds. If you are more burly, you push more energy in to me than I do into you. Any debate on this?

You say that as if hit points were a concrete thing in a Newtonian universe.

Big burly guy vs small wiry guy:
-Big burly guy goes for his first stab. Aims for the heart. Small guy manages to dodge, takes a hit to the left arm. Shrimp fork goes all the way through. Ouch.
-Small guy, while burly guy still relishing his powerful hit, goes for the eye. Fork goes right through, into the brain, big burly guy drops dead.

The fact that the big burly guy was a lvl 17 barb with over 400 hitpoints, or that the critical hit from the lvl 2 rogue using a shrimp fork (1d4 x 2, no sneak attack, no str bonus, no enchantment bonus, so max about 8 points of damage) was still a low damage hit, don't change the fact that in a newtonian universe an eye is still an eye and a brain is still a brain. Even on a lvl 17 barb with over 400 hitpoints.

[DNDJESS]

"You should get some sort of bonus in combat from Dex!"

You do. The ability to use a staff as a dual weapon via the two weapon fighting feat chains, which require a 15-19 Dex but also allow you to almost double the amount of attacks you get in a round. That lets non-Monks do those cool double ended whack! whack! whack! attacks with both ends of the staff.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in DDO (not PnP), isn't the staff used as a 2-hand weapon? I know for sure the TWF feat chains do not include or effect the staff. And I'm certain the THF feats don't either. It's kinda stuck between TWF and THF.

Still no real answer as to why here. Staffs don't really help with acrobatics, there are no abilities that an acrobat should get that a staff specialist Fighter shouldn't get, and it's nowhere to be found in the DnD rules.
Well I guess there is one answer- "I just want them to be finessable. Why are you disagreeing with me???"

...and that is a valid question, especially since you have given no valid reason as to why they shouldn't be. You give real-life examples and quote the 3.5 rulebook ad nauseum, but you have not given one single example of how this would negatively effect DDO, and that's all that truly matters.

That is because the animation for the weapon- like many weapons in DDO- is incorrect.

Really? So you're claiming to know DDO's intent for the staff better than the Devs do? Again, for the umpteenth time, THIS IS NOT PNP V3.5!! This is DDO!! If they gave the staff the graphics they did, and make it act as a 2-hand weapon, do you think maybe, juuuuuust maybe, they intended it to be a 2-hand weapon?

[Kistilan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in DDO (not PnP), isn't the staff used as a 2-hand weapon? I know for sure the TWF feat chains do not include or effect the staff. And I'm certain the THF feats don't either. It's kinda stuck between TWF and THF.

There's only 1 weapon, the staff. It's not Two-Weapon Fighting. It *is* Two-Handed Fighting.

...and that is a valid question, especially since you have given no valid reason as to why they shouldn't be. You give real-life examples and quote the 3.5 rulebook ad nauseum, but you have not given one single example of how this would negatively effect DDO, and that's all that truly matters.

The main reasons for this (why they shouldn't be) are that finesse was a rule generated out of the 3.0 & 3.5 core rulebook. It was designed for light, one-handed weapons. A quarterstaff is arguably much bulkier and heavier and not 1-handed. Bulk. Weight. Not 1-handed. Three reasons, albeit PnP rules, that confirm it shouldn't be finessable. You can say it's DDO not pnp all you want, but you're arguing to make it adhere to a pnp rule for the sake of dex. Again, if this were the case, than why not start adding other weapons? I feel the bastard sword is a very finessable weapon. That's my own opinion and this is DDO after all, not pnp. Please read between the lines on this one.

Really? So you're claiming to know DDO's intent for the staff better than the Devs do? Again, for the umpteenth time, THIS IS NOT PNP V3.5!! This is DDO!! If they gave the staff the graphics they did, and make it act as a 2-hand weapon, do you think maybe, juuuuuust maybe, they intended it to be a 2-hand weapon?

If the graphics make the staff appear to be a 2-handed weapon, then it is not finessable according to the pure pnp finesse rule. I don't know why graphic animations are even an arguement factor in this debate. They have made mistakes before in DDO's history of graphic edits. One great moment includes all male characters running as if they were wearing panties ie they were running like the girls. A modification to this was done in a later patch. If for some reason the attack animation does indeed inhibit your game play or immersion to believe that you are attacking and fighting feasibly with a staff, start a thread for the Devs to modify the attack posture. This is both an expensive process and requires a very good reason behind it.

[Invalid_86]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in DDO (not PnP), isn't the staff used as a 2-hand weapon? I know for sure the TWF feat chains do not include or effect the staff. And I'm certain the THF feats don't either. It's kinda stuck between TWF and THF.

You are wrong, and DDO is wrong. And DDO is wrong on many, many things.

..and that is a valid question, especially since you have given no valid reason as to why they shouldn't be. You give real-life examples and quote the 3.5 rulebook ad nauseum, but you have not given one single example of how this would negatively effect DDO, and that's all that truly matters.

"It's not in DnD" should basically end it as we are playing a videogame that clamis to be 3.5 DnD. Like it or not PnP is where this game is rooted.

Still there is no valid reason to change that. Sure weak arguments have been attempted but 3.5 actually covers the staff pretty well.

Really? So you're claiming to know DDO's intent for the staff better than the Devs do? Again, for the umpteenth time, THIS IS NOT PNP V3.5!! This is DDO!! If they gave the staff the graphics they did, and make it act as a 2-hand weapon, do you think maybe, juuuuuust maybe, they intended it to be a 2-hand weapon?

Too bad as this game has consistently created more problems when it has strayed from the core rules. Sure, 3.5 isn't perfect but it is pretty darn good, and every "elaboration" on them in DDO has basically been a D'oh! move. Like it or not you are stuck with those core rulebooks, and arguments based on them will have merit by default.

Now a staff, as it can be used a few different ways, needs different animations and a way to toggle between styles. By default it should be two handed whacking, NOT dual wielding as most characters that will try to use it won't use it that way.

Think of it this way- the attack animations also show us stabbing with maces...a blunt weapon! Do you think maybe, juuuuust maybe, they intended them to be stabbing weapons? No, the animation is just wrong.

[DNDJESS]

"It's not in DnD" should basically end it as we are playing a videogame that clamis to be 3.5 DnD. Like it or not PnP is where this game is rooted.

No, it doesn't claim to BE 3.5 DND. It claims to be BASED ON 3.5 DnD. The rules have evolved way beyond 3.5.

Too bad as this game has consistently created more problems when it has strayed from the core rules. Sure, 3.5 isn't perfect but it is pretty darn good, and every "elaboration" on them in DDO has basically been a D'oh! move. Like it or not you are stuck with those core rulebooks, and arguments based on them will have merit by default.

So you're suggesting we just close our minds to any other possibilities and just accept the 3.5 rulebook as a *perfect* document that is incapable of errors (ahem, light hammers anyone?) and is unable to be improved? Or do you think that maybe that is the whole point OF A FREAKING DEVELOPMENT FORUM?

The whole point of this section of the forums is to allow the players to brainstorm about ideas that could improve the game. Quoting the rulebook is pointless, because most of us already know what the rules are, but we think some changes are necessary, or at the very least, would improve the game and our enjoyment of it.

The one thing that seems to be consistent though is that the people arguing against this idea never make any mention about how this would effect DDO. There are no arguments made about how it would be overpowered (actually, the statement was made, with absolutely no info backing it up). There is no argument made about how it would be unbalancing. And there is no suggestions made about how a different way would work better in DDO.

All you guys keep repeating is 'that's not how it works in PnP', or 'that's not how it works in real-life'. Granted those arguments do have a little merit. But how it would effect DDO is a much, much more important factor in these arguments. And there have been enough people arguing for these ideas to back up the fact that finessable staffs would unquestionably add to the enjoyment of the game for many people.

If you can give any convincing examples of how it would detract from the enjoyment of the game for some people, then your arguments will carry some weight. But so far, I haven't seen any such arguments.

[Invalid_86]

No, it doesn't claim to BE 3.5 DND. It claims to be BASED ON 3.5 DnD. The rules have evolved way beyond 3.5.

So you're suggesting we just close our minds to any other possibilities and just accept the 3.5 rulebook as a *perfect* document that is incapable of errors (ahem, light hammers anyone?) and is unable to be improved? Or do you think that maybe that is the whole point OF A FREAKING DEVELOPMENT FORUM?

The whole point of this section of the forums is to allow the players to brainstorm about ideas that could improve the game. Quoting the rulebook is pointless, because most of us already know what the rules are, but we think some changes are necessary, or at the very least, would improve the game and our enjoyment of it.

The one thing that seems to be consistent though is that the people arguing against this idea never make any mention about how this would effect DDO. There are no arguments made about how it would be overpowered (actually, the statement was made, with absolutely no info backing it up). There is no argument made about how it would be unbalancing. And there is no suggestions made about how a different way would work better in DDO.

All you guys keep repeating is 'that's not how it works in PnP', or 'that's not how it works in real-life'. Granted those arguments do have a little merit. But how it would effect DDO is a much, much more important factor in these arguments. And there have been enough people arguing for these ideas to back up the fact that finessable staffs would unquestionably add to the enjoyment of the game for many people.

If you can give any convincing examples of how it would detract from the enjoyment of the game for some people, then your arguments will carry some weight. But so far, I haven't seen any such arguments.

Like it or not games have rules, and this game's rules are drawn from 3.5. yes even fantasy games have rules, and an internal logic that makes them work. That's why you can mix real life examples with discussions about rings that make you fly.

As I said 3.5 isn't perfect but it has a much more solid foundation, and where DDO has gone off course usually runs hand in hand with not paying attention to the core rules. So you really have to ask why should we veer off yet again? It isn't a discussion as to why shouldn't we- that's been covered pretty well concerning staffs- it's why we should.

To put it bluntly arguments based on "it's a fantasy world", "what would it hurt you if it did", or "why shouldn't we" are falling pretty flat.

A staff already has a large number of bonuses going for it, especially as a simple weapon. People will continue to use it (if the rules are properly put in) even if it isn't finessable. It is simply too much to make a simple weapon that can be dual wielded- without spending an exotic weapon feat- and switched back to a double handed weapon for single attacks also be a finessable weapon.

Get over it.

[In_Like_Flynn]

I think two-handed swords should be finessable, too.

[DNDJESS]

Like it or not games have rules, and this game's rules are drawn from 3.5. yes even fantasy games have rules, and an internal logic that makes them work. That's why you can mix real life examples with discussions about rings that make you fly.

Exactly. It has rules, not laws. Rules are changable; just ask any good DM. None of the 3.5 rules are set in stone - hell, it even says that in every Dungeon Master's Guide. And that was one of the great things about D&D - the DM could change the rules to improve gameplay, and a lot of that was dependant on the opinions and wants of the players. That is the same as what is going on here, and the sole reason to even have a Development section of the forums.

As I said 3.5 isn't perfect but it has a much more solid foundation, and where DDO has gone off course usually runs hand in hand with not paying attention to the core rules. So you really have to ask why should we veer off yet again? It isn't a discussion as to why shouldn't we- that's been covered pretty well concerning staffs- it's why we should.

The first part of this paragraph just sounds like total lack of respect for the DDO development team. You sure sound like you don't like what they've done with the rules, yet here you are, still playing 2 years later. They must be doing something right with their rule changes. And to answer 'why we should', like I've said time and time again - increasing player enjoyment of the game should be considered first and foremost when discussing any change. And there are plenty of players who would experience increased enjoyment by making the staff finessable, and 0 players who would experience less.

To put it bluntly arguments based on "it's a fantasy world", "what would it hurt you if it did", or "why shouldn't we" are falling pretty flat.

.....as are the 'your idea differs from the 3.5 rules, so it must not be good' arguments.

A staff already has a large number of bonuses going for it, especially as a simple weapon. People will continue to use it (if the rules are properly put in) even if it isn't finessable. It is simply too much to make a simple weapon that can be dual wielded- without spending an exotic weapon feat- and switched back to a double handed weapon for single attacks also be a finessable weapon.

Get over it.

2 questions for you:

1. Do any of your characters have a quarterstaff on their hotbar that they use for fighting?
2. Why not?

I think you're confused, and are combining two arguments. The people who want staves to be finessable are not asking for the option to use them for TWF and THF. I believe you were the first one that suggested that (I could be wrong). They're just asking for the staff as currently implemented to be finessable.

And even if it was usable as TWF and THF, why is that 'too much'? How do you see that as an advantage? Nobody would use it for both, it would be used for one or the other.

[GlassCannon]

But seriously, a simple weapon that gets two handed bonuses and is finessable and can be dual wielded is just too much.

Why?

Of course the DDO progression(logic) based on Physics(Real-Life) would allow for it, the DnD progression would require you to take 8 feats in Weapon Proficiency: Beaver, Platypus, Anvil, Cork, Fishnet, Anglo-saxon, Hair net, and Fudge Glycerin to get the bonuses from your DEX being higher than STR for a to-hit on quarterstaves(because according to what I have been told about PnP, it throws logic out the window after setting it on fire).

[dejafu]

The main reasons for this (why they shouldn't be) are that finesse was a rule generated out of the 3.0 & 3.5 core rulebook. It was designed for light, one-handed weapons. A quarterstaff is arguably much bulkier and heavier and not 1-handed. Bulk. Weight. Not 1-handed. Three reasons, albeit PnP rules, that confirm it shouldn't be finessable.

Just a reminder:

There ARE two-handed finesse weapons in PnP 3.5: the spiked chain (PHB) and the elven courtblade (Races of the Wild). Both are exotic weapons, so mentioning those by no means ends the argument about whether or not q-staves should be finessable, but the reasons you just gave have themselves been refuted by PnP.

[TreknaQudane]

Just a reminder:

There ARE two-handed finesse weapons in PnP 3.5: the spiked chain (PHB) and the elven courtblade (Races of the Wild). Both are exotic weapons, so mentioning those by no means ends the argument about whether or not q-staves should be finessable, but the reasons you just gave have themselves been refuted by PnP.

Yes, but those are exotic weapons meaning you need to spend a feat to get something a little above par.

My reasons for not liking Finessable Staves:

It is a FAST Simple-Two Handed Weapon
Anything Finessed should not get 1.5 STR bonus to damage
Nor should Power Attack give the x2 Damage

However, where there a NEW type of Staff implemented as an exotic weapon requiring a feat, or a special staff fighting feat required, that might balance some of the gain.

[GlassCannon]

My reasons for not liking Finessable Staves:

It is a FAST Simple-Two Handed Weapon
Anything Finessed should not get 1.5 STR bonus to damage
Nor should Power Attack give the x2 Damage.

If you are using a DEX bonus as your attack modifier, you would not get said bonuses. Why would you get said bonuses when not using Strength?

You make no sense.

Due to the nature of Staff fighting, you should get a DEX bonus to damage at 1.5x, not a STR bonus(provided your STR is at least 1/2 your DEX, otherwise it caps at DEX+STR bonus).

[Ministry]

we've all heard it 1000 times, once a week, by about half teh ddo population.. yet there never seems to be any answers other than petty debate between finesse users and strength users.

why aren't quarterstaves finessable?
the main point:

-quarterstaff; 4lbs (2 hand, non-finessable)
-light mace; 4lbs (1 hand, finessable)

pretty sure there's no good way to get a dev's attention to reply to a thread, but *any* response would be amazingly appreciated. us finessers feel left out, we want to play with 2h weps too :-/

I agree... should be based primarily on the weight of the item.

And... ummm... how much damage can a 1/4 staff do?



/signed.