Search/Disable timers

[honkuimushi]

Many classes have rewards for being pure. Scaling bonuses as you progress are the reward for this. As you progress in level, you get improvements to abilities. Disable and Search do not scale and are driven by skill points. You either succeed or fail when you use them. More importantly Skills in general are not working as they should (and not working as they do in PnP). For example, your skills should be capped (unable to progress) at your classes level. Currently, 1 rogue level enabled you to train to max all skills. Given the mostly useless nature of many skills, it enables one or two levels of rogue to effectively perform on equal footing as characters who have invested more levels. This is not the same with most other classes.

When you compare two characters, one a full rogue with another who has a few rogue levels, you should see a difference in their performance. Imagine if you could take 1 wizard level and put skill points into some Spellcasting skill to make spells as useful and as effective as a level 16 wizard's. I think this comparison is appropriate. Granted, Rogues can do other things and have other roles, but if we're talking about improvements to base rogue abilities and reduction in search/disable timers, we should strongly consider leveraging rogue level for this.

I know there are plenty of part time rogue builds that aren't full rogues, that's fine, you still get to use your +15DD/Search items and disable any trap a full rogue can. But, please see the logic in allowing a fully dedicated rogue to perform those actions more effective than rogues who basically picked up a copy of "Trapsmithing for dummies"

DDO skills mostly work as per PnP. If you have one level of a class with that skill as a class skill, your max ranks are level +3. The only issue is that you have to spend 2 skill points/ rank if it is not a class skill for the class you are currently leveling. Where DDO is different is that some skills, like Perform, Open Locks, and Disable Device require you to have a level in a class that has these skills as a class skill in order to put any skill ponts in them at all. DDO also has fewer skills, caps skills like Jump and lacks skill synergies. It also lacks a feat called Able Learner, which allows humans to pay 1 point/ rank for cross class skills as well.

Multi classed Rogues are not part-time Rogues. As you yourself said, there is more to being a Rogue than disabling traps. What should matter is the character concept, not abitrary level limits. My Ranger 10/ Rogue 6 has maximum ranks in DD. He also has way of the mechanic? Are you telling me he's not a trapper? He is more than that, but part of is concept is getting traps in addition to being a liitle hardier in melee. To do that he had to invest in certain areas and sacrifice others. To tie an ability like this to simple Rogue levels would feel like a cheap shot to me. I thought the main reason this was asked for was that it takes a fair amount of time to search for a trap, switch out equipment, and then disable it. There are a lot of players who aren't willing to wait and run straight through the trap while the rogue is still searching for it. Sometimes taht means that the box is now in an area threatened by the trap. The rogue finishes with the trap, then has to run to catch up with those who have already run through. Then there is the case where as soon as the rogue starts searching for a secret door, somebody hits a Detect Secret Doors clickie. Making multiclassed rogues wait longer just seems punitive.

Any Rogue or multiclassed Rogue that devotes full ranks in Disable Device and Search (and perhaps Open Locks and Spot as well) has done a whole hell of a lot more than pick up a copy of "Trapsmithing for Dummies." And I see no logic in allowing pure class rogues to be more effective than a multiclassed Rogue that has the same number of skill ranks. In fact, the multiclassed may have worked harder and sacrificed more than that pure Rogue. In short, skills work the way they do in PnP, the enhancements already give Pure classes(especially Rogues) a lot more power over multiclassed characters than they have in PnP. We don't need to add more artificial bonuses to pure classes.

[ahpook]

Of the options, only oronisi's timer decrease seems useful.

I wouldn't want to spend action pts for this ability (says probably one of the few rogues who spent APs for fsater sneaking).

And it should not be based on rogue level. Your ability to search is based on your search skill. PERIOD. Your ability to disable is based on your disable skill. PERIOD. Pure rogues get a benefit of being able to use enhancements for higher DD or Search skills. That is likely already more benefit than should be available (BTW my rogue is NOT multi class).

[Uska]

I like orosini's way .. I already have too many things to spend APs on as a rogue ..

Also, I have never liked the argument that a class should be given something as a reward for staying pure. Merely by multi-classing in the first place, you already gave up something - the rogue special feats, more sneak attack, more trap sense, fewer skill points, etc. The DnD system already has the penalties for multi-classing in place - we don't need to further penalize multi-class characters just to make folks feel justified in 'staying pure.'

I hate his way just more power gaming rush rush stuff I dont really think we need it at all I think the enhancement versionis better but I would also prefer if we gave up those as well, but I am a hardcore pnp player.

[Uska]

Of the options, only oronisi's timer decrease seems useful.

I wouldn't want to spend action pts for this ability (says probably one of the few rogues who spent APs for fsater sneaking).

And it should not be based on rogue level. Your ability to search is based on your search skill. PERIOD. Your ability to disable is based on your disable skill. PERIOD. Pure rogues get a benefit of being able to use enhancements for higher DD or Search skills. That is likely already more benefit than should be available (BTW my rogue is NOT multi class).

I think his idea is the worst to me the best idea is to do nothing about it at all its not needed.

[oronisi]

I think his idea is the worst to me the best idea is to do nothing about it at all its not needed.

Keep in mind I simply tossed out a formula to address the OP's request. Not only that, but you can easily skew the results by changing the constant multiplier. So if you want the beginning search to be 4s and the best attainable to be 3s, you can do that by tweaking the constant. None-the-less, I don't see why you'd single out rogues and say "You have to take your time and play all PnP-like while everyone else zergs past the traps you were brought along to disable". I mean, everything else, and I mean everything else, works quicker than rogue skills at this time. While I'd be on-board with the idea of keeping the times the same IF the rest of the game worked on a similar pace, that's not the case in DDO. Rogue skills need to be increased according to progression SOMEHOW to scale with the game speed. Not to mention, the devs want to put more trap boxes inside traps, and why wouldn't a better rogue be able to disarm a box quicker?

Perhaps the speed of the animation can be determined by the roll? IE: You critically fail - it takes you 5 seconds to work and then the box blows in your face. Alternatively, you surpass the DC of the trapbox by 20, you could have done it 1handed wearing a blindfold, it takes you 1 second to pop the case and flip that switch.

[Vyctor]

The increasing amount of traps in actual combat zones is the reason I suggested it.