Time to relook at the faith lines for Clerics and Paladins

[Impaqt]

People commonly mistake most powerful for most requested. If clerics were the most powerful class in the game, there would be lots of clerics, you know like there are lots of sorcerors and barbarians.

That being said, what do i want to have happen, I want the recasts/colldowns to be looked at for all of the abilities. I want the res ability completely changed. I want the CR of the summoned drow to be tied to caster level. I want the cooldown for bladesworn to be changed and I want the heal penalty to be reduced. I want the cooldown for unyielding soverignity to be something a bit more friendly than say once every ten minutes.

If rogues are getting a kill shot every 10 secs, and +8 sneak attack damage, and a bunch of bonuses to skills, and poisons for the cost of 6 AP, I think clerics should get a little better than a heal every 10 minutes (50 sp).

I mean heck the way it works out now, rogues for this one ability are going to get the equivalent of 40 sp per use of the kill ability (FoD or Destruction, but at a much higher DC than casters can achieve) times 60 uses so 2400 sp worth of caster ability in the same time the cleric or pally can throw one heal for 50 sp.

2400 sp> 50 sp.

Cow.. as I detailed above, WotA II takes Twenty Nine ACtion points.. Not 6. and the DC is 10+Rogue Level +Int Modifier.... Even If your Pure Rogue, you'd have to have a 20(Making it 31) Int to Reach the DC a Cleric Can get on Destruction 10 + 7(Spell Level) +11 WIS+ SPell Focus Item = 31). The DC isnt outrageous at all.

There are also Lots of Clerics..... Its just that the Percentage of Anonymous Clerics is pretty high.

[Impaqt]

Yeah becasue thats practical during a boss fight.

Theres Nothing Practical About Going Badesworn During a Boss Fight to Begin with.... The Reavor can easily be done with one COmpetant Arcane Correct? Now, What would you think if after Buffing all up, Instead of Laying down soem Disco Bals and Crowd Control, that Arcane Tensored Himself and ran off to Tank the reaver?

[llevenbaxx]

Theres Nothing Practical About Going Badesworn During a Boss Fight to Begin with.... The Reavor can easily be done with one COmpetant Arcane Correct? Now, What would you think if after Buffing all up, Instead of Laying down soem Disco Bals and Crowd Control, that Arcane Tensored Himself and ran off to Tank the reaver?

Not sure what youre getting at but no its not practical to the point it doesnt get used very often, or at the times I would really like to use it. A good paly ability they over restricted to the point its a pain to use.

Far as the arcane tanking, hey, if thats what he was build for. Have a WF ftr9/wiz6 who uses Tensors from scrolls. Sure I cant cast for the scrolls duration but thats short and infinitely recastable at my discretion and can still recieve support from a friendly cleric or arcane. Its a big penalty for the benefits is all im saying, making Tensors superior.

[MysticTheurge]

People commonly mistake most powerful for most requested.

This is ironic.

[Zuldar]

This is ironic.

Perhaps, but it's high time that some kind of statement be made about implementing cleric's domains. No other class has had one of their prime class features, gained at first level I might add, ignored for almost 7 mods now. Seven modules is far too long to push the issue under the rug, hoping it will go away.

[Vormaerin]

Uhh, what?


Rangers: No animal companion.
Wizards: No familiars, no Scribe Scroll or other item creation feats. No wizard specializations, either.
Paladins: No mounts, no detect evil.

Domains would be much more powerful in DDO than they are in p&p. In p&p, you can take ONE casting of one of your two domain spells for each level. In DDO, if you had fire domain you'd be able to cast firewall until the cows came home to the ashes of your family ranch. I'm all for granting domains, but they better be implemented in some fashion that doesn't make clerics even more dominant than they are.

[Zuldar]

Uhh, what?


Rangers: No animal companion.
Wizards: No familiars, no Scribe Scroll or other item creation feats. No wizard specializations, either.
Paladins: No mounts, no detect evil.

Domains would be much more powerful in DDO than they are in p&p. In p&p, you can take ONE casting of one of your two domain spells for each level. In DDO, if you had fire domain you'd be able to cast firewall until the cows came home to the ashes of your family ranch. I'm all for granting domains, but they better be implemented in some fashion that doesn't make clerics even more dominant than they are.

I would hardly compare any of those to domains, though wizard specializations might come close.

Secondly as far as being "overpowered", if it's good enough for pnp it's good enough for ddo.

[Hvymetal]

I would hardly compare any of those to domains, though wizard specializations might come close.

Secondly as far as being "overpowered", if it's good enough for pnp it's good enough for ddo.

Regardless of whether or not you would compare them in power your statement was that no other core class abilities had been ignored for 7 mods now.

While I agree in prinicple, Clerics also need to have some more forms of diversification & specialization available to them, I also feel that casters & Clerics are likely to recieve theirs last. I am ok with that (yes I have a Cleric & a Wizard), they are the least in need of them, I would love to have them and would hate to see them never get anything else, but I am ok with them getting theirs last.

As to Bladesworn, I use it sometimes on nothing fights on my Cleric just for fun, it's not terribly usefull and it doesn;t really last long enough to allow you the luxury to chug potions, you burn up valuable time. Although it works nicely when you cast Divine Power & Divine Favor first

[Vormaerin]

I would hardly compare any of those to domains, though wizard specializations might come close.

Secondly as far as being "overpowered", if it's good enough for pnp it's good enough for ddo.

If it was the same thing in DDO as it was in p&p, your statement might hold true. But its not going to be unless domains are implemented as 1/rest clicky abilities or something. A domain spell in p&p can ONLY be selected in the domain slot. So you get one of the two domain spells you know for each level ONCE per rest. That's a far cry from getting stoneskin, firewall, etc as often as desired which is what would happen if the domains were added to cleric spell choices.

[Vormaerin]

Leaving aside the issue that the clerics are in no need of a power up.. implementing domains would be a monumental pain in the butt. The vast majority of domain spells are not in the game and most of them wouldn't be useful in the game.

Spells actually in game (some of which are already cleric spells): Air Domain: 2 spells, Animal Domain 1 spell, Chaos Domain 1 spell, Death Domain 5 spells, Destruction Domain 6 spells, Earth Domain 1 spell, Fire Domain 5 spells, Good Domain 5 spells, Healing Domain.. no game effect whatsoever..., Knowledge domain 2 spells, Law Domain 2 spells, Luck Domain 4 spells, Magic domain 2 spells, Plant domain 1 spell, Protection Domain 2 spells, Strength domain 2 spells, Sun domain 5 spells, Travel domain 4 spells, Trickery domain 1 spell, War Domain 4 spells, Water domain 7 spells.

If you implement domains even halfway close to p&p, you'll see most clerics taking Fire and Water.. Not many clerics wouldn't want to add Burning Hands, Wall of Fire, Fire Shield, Incendiary Cloud, Ice Storm, Cone of Cold, Acid Fog, and Horrid Wilting (as well as Obscuring Mist and Fog Cloud for laughs) to their spell choices...

[MysticTheurge]

I would hardly compare any of those to domains, though wizard specializations might come close.

They all compare pretty well. Animal Companions is probably a class feature more central to rangers than domains are to clerics.

None of them might compare with the cleric's "Two free feats and one extra spell per day at each level" in terms of power, but D&D clerics are overpowered. Domains is one of the reasons for that.

Healing Domain.. no game effect whatsoever...

In truth, we all kind of have the Healing Domain by default...

[Griphon]

My two cents..

I have never taken the 'Faith' lines on a cleric of mine. (I play two.) I would have thought that I never would.. But honestly, I'm curious as to the idea of a WF 6 Cleric and a 14 Barbarian... Do your Divine buff spells for damage... Rage.. then hit the Bladesworn.. (Or reverse the last two.) Looks like the buffs would stack and be scary.

But! I think the other Cleric 'Faith' lines are weak if compared to the 'prestige like' lines. Here's the kicker.. They're not the same things, guys. Sorry.

Do I think the clerics need their 'specialty' lines? No. I think they need their Domains.
Do I think they need it now? No not really. They're pretty powerful in the game as is, and in a better sitting than the poor fighters and pally's.. (Pally's will soon be out of the un-loved' box)

What would I have liked to see happen? An additions to the to Enhancement lines be done -at the same time-. Each class gets a new spiffy toy at the same time. No favored 'love' for this cycle, please.. Just develop across the board for them all! This will hopefully make them all similarly equal in power instead of making one line more powerful because it was created 3 cycles further down than the others... and the game had changed -that- much.

[Aesop]

Uhh, what?


Rangers: No animal companion. but they get both ranged and twf lines no choice needed
Wizards: No familiars, no Scribe Scroll or other item creation feats. No wizard specializations, either. but... nope nothin
Paladins: No mounts, no detect evil. but they do get that Aura thing

Domains would be much more powerful in DDO than they are in p&p. In p&p, you can take ONE casting of one of your two domain spells for each level. In DDO, if you had fire domain you'd be able to cast firewall until the cows came home to the ashes of your family ranch. I'm all for granting domains, but they better be implemented in some fashion that doesn't make clerics even more dominant than they are.

Aesop

[Zuldar]

They all compare pretty well. Animal Companions is probably a class feature more central to rangers than domains are to clerics.

None of them might compare with the cleric's "Two free feats and one extra spell per day at each level" in terms of power, but D&D clerics are overpowered. Domains is one of the reasons for that.



In truth, we all kind of have the Healing Domain by default...

Animals Companions are hardly one of their more central abilities, if it we're druids it would be a different story. Seeing as rangers don't get them till 4th level and then they only get one as a druid one half their level. At the level cap you'd either have a cr 1 wolf with 4 more hit dice, or if turbine felt really frisky a plain ol brown bear.

[Ustice]

If we are worried about having clerics casting firewall to their heart's content, we could instead give them a once per rest class ability for each spell level (ie, cleric levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, and 17). Each one would have a sub menu like the protection spells which could allow for the specific ability to be hotbarred.

It feels strange to have to pay AP for a class feature.

[Vormaerin]

There are basically three ways domains could be implements... None of them address the fact that most of the domain spells don't exist, so that creating a meaningful variety of domains would be impossible.

1) As a clicky class feat that functions similar to dragonmarks. You get one use of each spell per rest. This is the closest to p&p, in that the spells are one shot and are in addition to the usual spell pool. Clerics would be thanking the devs for hotbars 11-20 for sure with potentially 20 new clicky spells and powers to keep track of....

2) As extra spells the cleric can select for their usual spell slots. This would be the easiest way, but pretty overpowered for an already first rate class and also makes even more domain spells vanish, as they are spells clerics already have the option to chose.

3) As separate spells with their own mana bar, so they still cast like DDO spontaneous spells without the problems of #2. This is beyond unlikely.

Since the devs would need to come up with 21 new feats (the domain abilities), enough spells to fill out the domain lists without giving the cleric every spell anywhere in the game, some sort of feat selection for the domains themselves, and potentially some clicky UI casting mechanism just to make the most powerful class in the game even better... well, I hope the devs are spending their time on other things.

[Vormaerin]

Animals Companions are hardly one of their more central abilities, if it we're druids it would be a different story. Seeing as rangers don't get them till 4th level and then they only get one as a druid one half their level. At the level cap you'd either have a cr 1 wolf with 4 more hit dice, or if turbine felt really frisky a plain ol brown bear.

So... spellcasting isn't central to rangers or paladins either, since they don't get it until lvl 4? I suppose shapeshifting isn't central to druids because they don't get it until lvl 5?

Neither druid nor ranger animal companions are meaningfully useful combatants in p&p, though a druid can try to make theirs into one by casting a whole array of specialty buffs on it. They would obviously be even worse in DDO between the upgrade in monster power and the weakness of the ally AI. It doesn't change the fact that its a central feature of the class that is routinely asked for by ranger players coming from p&p into an online D&D CRPG. Even an 11 HD badger with 25 AC, Improved Evasion, Multiattack, and Rage is still useless in a lvl 16 combat.. around the table or at the computer. A pet Tyrranosaur is a bit more useful in combat, but pretty hard to take on most adventures....

[vyvy3369]

Cow.. as I detailed above, WotA II takes Twenty Nine ACtion points.. Not 6. and the DC is 10+Rogue Level +Int Modifier.... Even If your Pure Rogue, you'd have to have a 20(Making it 31) Int to Reach the DC a Cleric Can get on Destruction 10 + 7(Spell Level) +11 WIS+ SPell Focus Item = 31). The DC isnt outrageous at all.

The DC isn't outrageous at all? Compare it to Stunning Blow, which I think most people would agree is one of the most powerful melee attack abilities available.

On my fighter, I've spent 22 Action Points towards inreasing the DC, and have an almost maximum possible strength, giving me a DC of 28 + Weighted, but I don't really use Weighted any more after getting access to crafted weapons. Note that a pure-classed Rogue could achieve that same DC with an Int of 14. Stunning Blow has a 15 second cooldown, this one is only 10. Also note that DC28 lands very frequently, even on Elite. So...an almost definitely higher DC, faster cooldown, and instant death instead of just Stunning for 7 more Action Points. Oh, and they also get all the other bonuses from those 29 action points, like more sneak attack damage, etc.

Yeah it has the drawback of that it must be a sneak attack, but the enhancement gives a bonus to Bluff, which allows for sneak attacks. Or combine it with a Radiance weapon, and death attack as soon as they're blinded.

I'm not complaining about the rogue ability though, it sounds pretty awesome...It actually made me think about rolling another one up to make use of it. It's just really annoying to see that Fighters haven't gotten anything all that great since...I can't even remember. I'm still not even back to as powerful of enhancements as I had back when we only had 4 at a time.

Edit: oh, and comparing it to Destruction isn't really fair either. I'm assuming the death attack won't have to worry about penetrating SR...

[Vormaerin]

Paladins can also fight (better than clerics I might add), Heal (LOH and spells), cast, and turn undead. (DV is not an ability useful to clerics, it is useful to others in a clerics group, if I am out soloing, the AP spent on DV's or whatever are completely wasted as I cannot target myself with them).

If you really believe this based on your experience with clerics, I really think you need to spend more time learning how to build and play the class. Honestly, that statement is so untrue its farcical. Let's look at it in more detail.. For the purposes of the following discussion, assume that when I say "combat" I mean melee weapons.

First, Stats: Paladins need Str, Con, Wis, Cha and could use Dex. Clerics need Str, Con, Wis. Dex and Cha are nice, but optional.
A cleric who wants to be able to fight can have better stats than the paladin, as they don't need Charisma if they don't want it. If they do want Charisma, their combat stats are equal to paladin's. Neither clerics nor paladins get any useful combat stat enhancement options. Paladins will probably spend all their level ups on physical stats, but clerics probably won't. Draw.

Second, BaB/HP. The only place the paladin compares favorably... At cap, +4 BaB and 32hp. Some of this may be offset by the cleric's better stats, but we'll ignore that. Edge to Paladins.

Third, Feats, Neither class has any 'must have' not combat feats but its true a cleric will generally take more spell casting feats.than a paladin would. Paladin might gain slightly in combat as a result. Paladins get Smite Evil, which currently has a negligible impact on DPS and an aura that gives AC. Slight edge to paladins.

Fourth, Enhancements: Clerics don't have any combat enhancements except the Faith bonus. Paladins get that, plus Toughness and Attack Boost. Toughness is pretty good, attack boost less so. Slight edge to Paladins

Fifth, Spells: Paladins get Divine Favor, Virtue, Angelskin, and Bless/Prayer. Clerics get: Aid (equal to Virtue and Bless together), Divine Favor, Divine Power, Recitation, and some stuff probably redundant with equipment. As well as vastly more spell points. Major advantage to clerics.. even without counting crowd control and destructive spells.

Sixth, Healing: Clerics smoke paladins at healing, even as much LoH as the paladin can scrape up. End of story.

There's no difference in equipment between a paladin and a cleric except the paladin can use martial weapons, which is useful. Both classes have pretty much the same item needs, except the cleric needs potency item and a paladin just wishes he had a use for one.

Clerics will be about the same in to hit as the paladin, pretty close on HP unless the paladin takes the full toughness enhancement line, a little worse on average damage, and maybe a point or two off on AC. But the cleric's spell points will keep the buffs up far longer than the paladin will be able to. If somehow the two are driven to the uttermost end of extremity and can't cast any spells.. the paladin will have a moderate edge in to hit. But the paladin will be there a lot sooner.

If you allow the cleric to use Blade Barrier and Greater Command, the paladin's not even in the picture any more. If you allow the cleric to take 1 level of fighter (ie Cleric15/Fighter1) then even the unbuffed advantages of the paladin (other than AC aura) are gone.

A paladin will smoke a healbot in melee. He won't stand a chance against a cleric who intends to melee. And that cleric will still be able to heal and buff others just fine.

[Zuldar]

So... spellcasting isn't central to rangers or paladins either, since they don't get it until lvl 4? I suppose shapeshifting isn't central to druids because they don't get it until lvl 5?

Neither druid nor ranger animal companions are meaningfully useful combatants in p&p, though a druid can try to make theirs into one by casting a whole array of specialty buffs on it. They would obviously be even worse in DDO between the upgrade in monster power and the weakness of the ally AI. It doesn't change the fact that its a central feature of the class that is routinely asked for by ranger players coming from p&p into an online D&D CRPG. Even an 11 HD badger with 25 AC, Improved Evasion, Multiattack, and Rage is still useless in a lvl 16 combat.. around the table or at the computer. A pet Tyrranosaur is a bit more useful in combat, but pretty hard to take on most adventures....

Aye, but they didn't forget spell casting for rangers or paladins, now did they? And I can pretty much guarantee that when druids come out that they will have wildshape. Clerics didn't get domains.

Strangely, I don't see a lot of posts asking for ranger's animal companions either. Rangers are always asking for increased ranged attack speed, and an improved manyshot.

Even if they added animal companions, rangers wouldn't get a badger with 11 HD, you'd get one with 5 HD with 2 claws dealing 1d2 damage, and a bite dealing 1d3. Add on an extra +2 damage if it's raging.