Time to relook at the faith lines for Clerics and Paladins

[Snoggy]

i think the original point of this thread was that they don't stack up to anything really
they aren't terrible lines to choose but at the same time they really are short of anything spectacular..... in a way that's how they are meant to be though

look at Dragon Marks..... most characters plum don't use them and thats a testament to their overall power
it's a huge investment to take them to a point where they become really useful but then again it all depends on the build

the same issue applies here, they aren't great but some builds can get use out of them - they are a flavour thing which is pretty cool

while i don't ever invest in them it's nice to see Turbine putting the faith aspect into Paladins and Clerics - far from domains but cool nonetheless

Are you trying to suggest that fighter prestige enhancements are better than these? If so, you're going to have to provide a specific example of which fighter class prestige enhancement is actually better than these. Or rather, you're simply going to have to provide an example of ANY fighter class prestige enhancements, since, well ... you know .... they don't exist.

[Impaqt]

Fortunatly, Itunes has a FF Button.

[Cowdenicus]

Are you trying to suggest that fighter prestige enhancements are better than these? If so, you're going to have to provide a specific example of which fighter class prestige enhancement is actually better than these. Or rather, you're simply going to have to provide an example of ANY fighter class prestige enhancements, since, well ... you know .... they don't exist.

I have a feeling fighters will be next up on the list. I also believe casters and clerics will be the last to be looked at.....

[Cowdenicus]

Fortunatly, Itunes has a FF Button.

That is not very nice.

[MysticTheurge]

I also believe casters and clerics will be the last to be looked at.....

Yes. For a reason.

[Cowdenicus]

Yes. For a reason.

says you....

[Impaqt]

That is not very nice.

Oh, I just meant so I could get to yoru Segment faster!

[Cowdenicus]

Oh, I just meant so I could get to yoru Segment faster!

uh huh.....

[Stanley_Nicholas]

I think clerics and paladins should get the faith lines for free, as they currently are. Implement them as extra feats, like the rogue special abilities or ranger favored enemies. Since we don't get domains, and the faith lines are indeed far inferior to the enhancement lines of other classes per action point, this is the least they could do.

[oronisi]

I prefer to think of the current Cleric and Paladin enhancements as flavor and not to be compared with the other 'prestige class enhancements'. I'm still waiting for Cleric and Paladin enhancements of the 'prestige class' level. I would prefer they do not use the current Sovereign Host / Undying Court / Bladesworn platform as their base.

[Impaqt]

I think clerics and paladins should get the faith lines for free, as they currently are. Implement them as extra feats, like the rogue special abilities or ranger favored enemies. Since we don't get domains, and the faith lines are indeed far inferior to the enhancement lines of other classes per action point, this is the least they could do.

As Pointed out, the Benefit received compared to the Action Point/Prereq Requirements invested is already quite good.

2 Action Points Flat for 2 Feats is a Very good return on your investment. (You get a Proficency AND Focus in that Weapon)

FOr 4 Action points

The Drow Scorpion is quite efective until about L10(THis Is probobly the Weakest Link)

THe Ability to Raise Dead/Resurect is the Equivalent of 30-40 Spell Points (EotZ IV is 4 AP's for 30 Spell Points)

The ABility to cast a Heal that wil bring any character in the game from 1 HP to Max is Worth 35 Spell Points easy (ANd dont forget this Resets Death Penalty as wel!)

Silver FLame is Basically a Use of Dismissal. (25 Spell Points)

and Lord of the Blades Is as good if not better than Tensors.....


All they need is to be changed to CLickys with the ability to buy extra uses via more action points spent.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

As Pointed out, the Benefit received compared to the Action Point/Prereq Requirements invested is already quite good.

2 Action Points Flat for 2 Feats is a Very good return on your investment. (You get a Proficency AND Focus in that Weapon)

FOr 4 Action points

The Drow Scorpion is quite efective until about L10(THis Is probobly the Weakest Link)

THe Ability to Raise Dead/Resurect is the Equivalent of 30-40 Spell Points (EotZ IV is 4 AP's for 30 Spell Points)

The ABility to cast a Heal that wil bring any character in the game from 1 HP to Max is Worth 35 Spell Points easy (ANd dont forget this Resets Death Penalty as wel!)

Silver FLame is Basically a Use of Dismissal. (25 Spell Points)

and Lord of the Blades Is as good if not better than Tensors.....


All they need is to be changed to CLickys with the ability to buy extra uses via more action points spent.

I disagree with your opinion, I find them to still be quite weak. I have 2 clerics and have tried out the faiths my races would allow.

[llevenbaxx]

and Lord of the Blades Is as good if not better than Tensors.....


.

With the unique penalty of no divine healing(other than LOH)it really makes it next to impossible to use in boss fights, the time you would like to use it most. Arcanes in my experience still dont take healing WF as something they should have to do... There are a few out there though who actually play the class to the fullest. Remove that penalty and its as good if not better that Tensors

[Impaqt]

I disagree with your opinion, I find them to still be quite weak. I have 2 clerics and have tried out the faiths my races would allow.

Then you are looking at them Compared to other more expensive Enhancements rather than the logical view I have shown. Thats ok....

With the unique penalty of no divine healing(other than LOH)it really makes it next to impossible to use in boss fights, the time you would like to use it most. Arcanes in my experience still dont take healing WF as something they should have to do... There are a few out there though.

Hmmm.. I usualy Heal during difficult Boss fights.... and theres nothing stopping you from Drinking Repair Potions.

[ThrasherGT]

No Clerics are one of the most requested classes in the game.

Paladins can also fight (better than clerics I might add), Heal (LOH and spells), cast, and turn undead. (DV is not an ability useful to clerics, it is useful to others in a clerics group, if I am out soloing, the AP spent on DV's or whatever are completely wasted as I cannot target myself with them).

Using your logic Pallies can melee better than clerics and clerics can cast better than pallies. Seems like they would be even. So in fact with your logic, Paladins are one of the most powerful classes in the game.

Since we know that Pallies are not one of the most powerful classes in the game....... it would seem your entire premise does not add up.

I'm sorry, But You are clearly using Your logic to justify Your point. My point was that clerics can do everything most other classes can do (with some exceptions i.e. DD, OL, they don't get the same range of offensive spells as Wiz/Sorc, etc.), and are considered by many to be the most powerful class in the game.

My question to You is this: What is it You want to happen here? Paladins and Clerics have their own niche in DDO, and every class has their strengths and weaknesses. Parity between classes is an Unrealistic expectation. Do some classes need some "help" ?
Sure they do. If You feel a class is weak, then You have the choice to not play that class. I myself have never, and I never plan on, making a paladin. I see no reason to make one the way they are specced right now. That is My choice.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

Then you are looking at them Compared to other more expensive Enhancements rather than the logical view I have shown. Thats ok....

Oh, I see now. Thank you for informing me that my opinion, unlike yours, is illogical, based on your assumptions. Obviously I was wrong. I have seen the light!

[Cowdenicus]

I'm sorry, But You are clearly using Your logic to justify Your point. My point was that clerics can do everything most other classes can do (with some exceptions i.e. DD, OL, they don't get the same range of offensive spells as Wiz/Sorc, etc.), and are considered by many to be the most powerful class in the game.

My question to You is this: What is it You want to happen here? Paladins and Clerics have their own niche in DDO, and every class has their strengths and weaknesses. Parity between classes is an Unrealistic expectation. Do some classes need some "help" ?
Sure they do. If You feel a class is weak, then You have the choice to not play that class. I myself have never, and I never plan on, making a paladin. I see no reason to make one the way they are specced right now. That is My choice.

People commonly mistake most powerful for most requested. If clerics were the most powerful class in the game, there would be lots of clerics, you know like there are lots of sorcerors and barbarians.

That being said, what do i want to have happen, I want the recasts/colldowns to be looked at for all of the abilities. I want the res ability completely changed. I want the CR of the summoned drow to be tied to caster level. I want the cooldown for bladesworn to be changed and I want the heal penalty to be reduced. I want the cooldown for unyielding soverignity to be something a bit more friendly than say once every ten minutes.

If rogues are getting a kill shot every 10 secs, and +8 sneak attack damage, and a bunch of bonuses to skills, and poisons for the cost of 6 AP, I think clerics should get a little better than a heal every 10 minutes (50 sp).

I mean heck the way it works out now, rogues for this one ability are going to get the equivalent of 40 sp per use of the kill ability (FoD or Destruction, but at a much higher DC than casters can achieve) times 60 uses so 2400 sp worth of caster ability in the same time the cleric or pally can throw one heal for 50 sp.

2400 sp> 50 sp.

[jkm]

The ABility to cast a Heal that wil bring any character in the game from 1 HP to Max is Worth 35 Spell Points easy (ANd dont forget this Resets Death Penalty as wel!)

just to be accurate, it heals for a 1000 +/- any bonuses or restrictions on the character. so a WF with no healers friend gets 500 and a wf who takes the fortification feat gets a big fat zero (or did the last time i tried it).

yes, it gets rid of the death penalty and negative levels, however, it also doesn't heal them of those hit points either (like the description implies that it would). so if a characters has 12 negative levels, you are going to have to follow up with a heal anyway.

[llevenbaxx]

Hmmm.. I usualy Heal during difficult Boss fights.... and theres nothing stopping you from Drinking Repair Potions.

Yeah becasue thats practical during a boss fight. Repair potions are not the way to go when youre getting beat on by the toughest mobs in the game... My arcane casters also carry a stack of Reconstruct scrolls and Im happy to use them, this is very far from the norm, trust me. Handing them out does work sometimes, more often than not they still forget.

Unless you have a great arcane with you, using it in an endfight equals dead/incap. I know.

Is sorta funny though I have tried to set it up ahead of time a few times to have the caster flake out and... forget? So I start asking for "repairs" to have the cleric screaming I cant target you! or its not working!.. even though Im plainly in site. Had a few get a little frustrated.

Would be much better in a persistent group i suppose.

[esoitl]

The faith enhancements shouldn't be changed.

Cleric specialties should be added. When they get around to them. Clerics (unlike several other classes) aren't in desperate need of some help.

thank you... someone who realizes the difference between a line of faith and a class specialty


SNOGGY: sure there are no fighter specialties or great enhancement lines as of yet but the fact that they get close to double, if not more, feats than any other clas basically guarantees anyone can specialize themselves that way

not saying that they are unwarranted but at this point when clerics are among the most powerful of classes there is little to be needed to impove the class

fighters are meant to be diversified through feats and as such are hard to pinpoint exactly where you would ever choose to add a class spec or enhancement line

most have a general breakdown of what they can spec in, fighters are not so narrow...