XP re-evaluation - Sign this Petition!

[Artagon]

Ok, I brought this up in another thread, but I feel that it deserves it's own thread so that the idea isn't lost.

More than new adventures, we need to see every single quest re-evaluated and the xp/loot/effort adjusted so that EVERY quest is EQUAL in terms of effort/xp/loot. Most of us know exactly which quests we are going to run into the ground as we level up, we have a specific set of a dozen quests or so which give the best xp in the least possible amount of time, examples would be stormcleave, WW, STK, Delara's etc.. Nobody runs the other hundred quests unless they are FORCED to in order to grind favor, or are perverse enough NOT to care about how fast we level up. I'm not saying there aren't people out there who feel that way, but heck, I'm a casual gamer and I STILL run those specific quests.. mostly because nobody wants to run the other flavorful quests. As a specific example. It takes a group of lvl 3 folks about one hour to complete STK, for a total xp gain of ~9k, if you run Freshen the Air 2x with the same party, it will take about the same amount of time, and you'll net about 4k xp. Would you say freshen the air is more difficult for a lvl 3 party to complete? I would. So for a little MORE effort, possibly a little less time, you get LESS THAN HALF the xp, and NO named rewards like STK (cloven-jaw warbeads to name one). If FtA gave you 3.5-4k xp for the run, wouldn't you run it? Here are a couple examples of when Dev's already made such a change. The Pit - challenging to the uninitiated, FUN if you know what you're doing. This quest netted the player approx. 3k when the mission first arrived in game FOR A LVL 8 QUEST. This quest takes approximately the same time as SC, and they changed the xp reward about a month after it's arrival to be equivalent to SC. If you haven't run this quest recently, maybe it's because you didn't know they fixed it. Go give it a try again, bring a guide, this quest is a BLAST. SirGog pointed out that the Shadow Crypt was also re-evaluated for xp in the prior thread this was mentioned. Honestly, I haven't run it yet, but now I'm going to.

I think if all quests were equal in xp/loot/effort ratio, there would be FAR fewer complaints about lack of content. I personally would probably become the master of the lesser known quests, because my groups would then be FRESH, there would be fewer ZERGERS (other than me, lol), and I wouldn't have to do the super well known stuff (besides, my favor would creep up there amazingly fast).

If anyone agrees, please sign this petition!

PS- Wouldn't this be easier to do than make 20 new quests? Wouldn't that free up resources to do other fun stuff in a mod? Mod 7 would be an amazing time for this to happen, as so many of us are going to be running back through the gamut of tried and true xp runs because the video of monks looks so bloody cool :P

[Draiden]

Yeah, it would. Your ideas certainly have some backbone.

[Dirac]

Theoretically, I might agree. In practice, for the most part, I would say no, please don't do this.
1. It is impossible to make them all perfectly equal, power gamers will find the best path and this will solve nothing.
2. It takes developer time, possibly a lot of time to make sure they don't create a huge imbalance the other way.
3. I am afraid it would be done by degrading STK, etc. I like to run lots of different quests, but still rely on some for great xp/time when I so desire.
4. While there is no doubt you rarely find LFM's for quests other than the standards, I have never heard evidence that anyone posting an LFM for a non-standard quest during standard hours has had difficulties filling the group.

That being said, if there is a particular quest that you feel is out of wack, not just compared to the best quest (STK) but the vast majority of other quests at that level, this is a perfectly valid point to bring up. This is the sort of conversation that lead to the improvements in the xp of the Pit.

Edit: I should point out that vastly different xp/time and effort quests is to a certain degree by design. Different people have different things they enjoy. Some quests are made for people who like to explore and have complicated plots and completion objectives. The emphasis is on otherthings besides the xp. Power gamers avoid these like the plague, but these cater to different people. Obviously, this should all take place within a reasonable range, but there are methods behind the madness.

[ahpook]

I am onside with the OP's suggestion. The devs have the numbers and can make a good pass at better balance by looking at how often things are run and the loot and XP you get from those quests. There will still be optimal paths but they shouldn't be as obviously superior as they are now.

Also, due to this we have to accept that some quests (I am looking at you stormcleave) will have their XP reduced. We cannot just have XP inflation. Net XP should remain about the same.

[Zenako]

Slow down a bit first. One reason some of those quests are so fast to run and get that EXP/hour you seek is that while they had an edge at the beginning, everyone has run them so often that they become easy to run. Everyone knows the right path, the right spells, the right weapons, etc to use or take. You know which side passages are just dead ends and help with conquest, but not completion, things like that.

IF those other quests were run as often, and mastered as well, then those too would see a lot better EXP/hour rates. You also have to be careful to compare quests of the same level and multipart quests tend to have later quest steps at higher quest levels. So comparing running a level 3 quest twice to running a level 3, a level 4 and a level 5 quest in sequence will likely result in the later getting more experience for the same set of characters.

[Borror0]

I think that XP should be revisted upward, not reduced.

Fact is, lots of complaints on these forums come from the 7-12 being boring, people having more trouble finding full groups. I don't eblieve there is really a problem with quests giving too much XP as much as there is a problem not giving enough. Threnal East 3 comes to mind, for a 15 minutes of pure all for less XP than most Harbor quest gives.

Kobold Assault is another one. More kobolds to fight than you've ever fought in a dungeon. One shrine, less XP than most quests.

[jkm]

if there is one quest in ddo that needs to be reevaluated its guard duty in 3 barrell cove. since they changed the mob AI, that is the new protect coyle quest for lowbies. one hit on elite and a sailor goes down. 6 total favor for elite, liek 200 xp and 125 gold for an end reward.

[Borror0]

We cannot just have XP inflation.

Why not?

[Bekki]

I Agree another such case is the Quest
"Proof is in the Poison"

This quest Is Rated at LEVEL 4 and yet it can take down
a prty of 7-8 level characters if you are unfamiliar with it!

I have seen it happen, and we are NOT talking about Un-skilled Players.

I want to make that clear.

There are no less than FIVE "Named" characters you can encounter,
(some on a regular basis) and only TWO chests drop!

A third if you have a rogue.

The are entire corridors (and Rooms( FILLED with acid.

An ARMY of up to Twenty Four Black widow Spiders (spitting Venom)

A Drow Scorpion, and More Mages that you can Shake a Kobald at!

And for all of this pain and Suffering?

3-4K of XP.

Note:
(I may be off on the XP though, internet has been down for bout' a Month)
(Please correct me if I am mistaken. and If I am I will correct in my post.)
and post a note.

now that is is About right for a Level four Quest,
but it seems that the CR rating on this one may be a little off.

[Zenako]

I Agree another such case is the Quest
"Proof is in the Poison"

This quest Is Rated at LEVEL 4 and yet it can take down
a prty of 7-8 level characters if you are unfamiliar with it!

I have seen it happen, and we are NOT talking about Un-skilled Players.

I want to make that clear.

There are no less than FIVE "Named" characters you can encounter,
(some on a regular basis) and only TWO chests drop!

A third if you have a rogue.

The are entire corridors (and Rooms( FILLED with acid.

An ARMY of up to Twenty Four Black widow Spiders (spitting Venom)

A Drow Scorpion, and More Mages that you can Shake a Kobald at!

And for all of this pain and Suffering?

3-4K of XP.

Note:
(I may be off on the XP though, internet has been down for bout' a Month)
(Please correct me if I am mistaken. and If I am I will correct in my post.)
and post a note.

now that is is About right for a Level four Quest,
but it seems that the CR rating on this one may be a little off.

one of the biggest problems I see from Proof and places like Searing Heights, is that trying to use the same playstyle in those locations that works for something like STK or even Tangleroot, will end up getting you killed. You need to be more cautious, you need to consider the known mobs and what they are likely to use. Unless you are seriously overleveled, if you try to "zerg/rush" Proof, you will get way more aggro than you can handle. Also keep in mind that humans and spell casters are a type of mob that scales up dramatically when you up their levels. (Hard is +2 and Elite is +5 in general). So what is the difference between what a level 4 caster can sling at you, and what a level 9 caster could sling your way....a lot.

If you run Swiped Signet and Searing Heights you will see the same pattern in the casters and other Quickfoot thieves in all those locations. Develop good tactics in one and they work in all of them. Freshen the Air has similar issues in it, compounded with the time factor as well.

[oronisi]

I took a break from DDO during the release of GH and the desert. There are still some quests I have never run. I bet I don't know all their names, but I know I have never run Desert Caravan, and I have only done Spawn of Wisperdoom once. Why? Because nobody likes running these quests. Risk(and effort) v Reward is just not worth it.

[Juni]

I can agree with part of what the OP is talking about. But I also disagree.

Its hard to find groups to go on quests that don't give the XP for the Diff that the quest is.

But, I don't think that the Dev's need to take all their time that could be better spent somewhere else just to look over all the quest out there and try to balance them. Quests should never be totally equal in XP/Loot. But there are quest out there in Stormreach that do need to be looked at there are some quests that the risk far outweighs the reward. I am glad that they took the time to look at The Pit and adjust the XP which made the quest much easier to get groups.

A big part of this is the fact that everyone runs the big quests (WW, STK, Delaras, SC) that we have all just learned them so well that we can fly right through them. But take a group of all new players or one vet player with 5 new players and you don't finish STK in a hour but more like 2+ hours. If more people took the time to learn the less traveled quests everyone could fly right though them. '

The one quest I still think they should look into is Proof is in the Poison even tho they said they adjusted the casters this quest is still way to hard for a group of lvl 3s to complete and the XP just isn't great no wonder most skip this quest and only return at lvl 12+ to get the favor.

[Bekki]

one of the biggest problems I see from Proof and places like Searing Heights, is that trying to use the same playstyle in those locations that works for something like STK or even Tangleroot, will end up getting you killed. You need to be more cautious, you need to consider the known mobs and what they are likely to use. Unless you are seriously overleveled, if you try to "zerg/rush" Proof, you will get way more aggro than you can handle. Also keep in mind that humans and spell casters are a type of mob that scales up dramatically when you up their levels. (Hard is +2 and Elite is +5 in general). So what is the difference between what a level 4 caster can sling at you, and what a level 9 caster could sling your way....a lot.

If you run Swiped Signet and Searing Heights you will see the same pattern in the casters and other Quickfoot thieves in all those locations. Develop good tactics in one and they work in all of them. Freshen the Air has similar issues in it, compounded with the time factor as well.

Oh I agree with you Zenako,
I always say Tactics and Teamwork are very Important.

But what I am talking about here is Risk vs. reward.

For this one

DUE to the Amped up Difficulty With all of the Casters,
I am just saying a Re-evaluation may be needed to determine
if the C/R Rating is scaled correctly, if it is...Fine.

Then maybe consider bumping up the XP a little...

And we continue doing it the way we do now, Sneak and peak,
slow and really...careful, I have no prob with that.

But it just seems for a really tough Dungeon, they should maybe
provide a little more reward, as it seems the reward is VERY sparse on this one.

Several Named encounters drop Absolutely NOTHING. NADA ,ZIP, ZERO.

And that seems a little off to me, but then again I admit, I may be wrong.

[Arianrhod]

Oh I agree with you Zenako,
I always say Tactics and Teamwork are very Important.

But what I am talking about here is Risk vs. reward.

For this one

DUE to the Amped up Difficulty With all of the Casters,
I am just saying a Re-evaluation may be needed to determine
if the C/R Rating is scaled correctly, if it is...Fine.

Then maybe consider bumping up the XP a little...

And we continue doing it the way we do now, Sneak and peak,
slow and really...careful, I have no prob with that.

But it just seems for a really tough Dungeon, they should maybe
provide a little more reward, as it seems the reward is VERY sparse on this one.

Several Named encounters drop Absolutely NOTHING. NADA ,ZIP, ZERO.

And that seems a little off to me, but then again I admit, I may be wrong.

It's not just that Proof is tough...once you learn it, like many others it's manageable...at least, each encounter is. It's the whole thing together that's a bit much. It's a really LONG quest for 4th level. Ran through it last night on hard with a level 10 ranger who knew the quest reasonably well, and it still took 76 minutes to complete. Making a quest that long with recommended "sneak and peek" tactics virtually guarantees no one will ever want to run it at anywhere near the stated level, simply due to the time investment.

[Zenako]

It's not just that Proof is tough...once you learn it, like many others it's manageable...at least, each encounter is. It's the whole thing together that's a bit much. It's a really LONG quest for 4th level. Ran through it last night on hard with a level 10 ranger who knew the quest reasonably well, and it still took 76 minutes to complete. Making a quest that long with recommended "sneak and peek" tactics virtually guarantees no one will ever want to run it at anywhere near the stated level, simply due to the time investment.

Well it does have about the best favor reward level of any quest in the marketplace (base 5) and it also gives the most EXP for any quest in the marketplace as well, so it is well poisitioned. However, it is also true that many many other quests can be completed in far less time for more net experience as well. It has the drawback of needing to fight / sneak into an area, get a key and run all the way back out to open the door to the next area and rinse and repeat. Doing that once is ok, twice gets annoying, but by the third time it can be frustrating I agree. Unlike some quests, where you can split up the group to finish it quicker if you want, there is really little benfit to doing that in this one. It must be done almost entirely in order without skipping much of anything. Something like Water Works has a lot of sections where you can skip a lot of the level if you want to just finish it for quick base EXP and favor. (For example, 3 of us blew through WW on elite for favor parts 1 thru 4 in a total of under 20 minutes. Put it this way, the mobs in the tunnels upstairs never respawned between quests, but that was largely because we could split up 3 ways and quickly do various parts of each quest simulataneously.)

[miceelf88]

yeah, I think a periodic re-evaluation of the quests' xp and loot is in order. But there are some quests that simply don't get played because they just aren't fun. I actually like the first round of necro quests (tomb of X heart series). But the second (tomb of the shadow X) is like a set of trips to the dentist. I don't know if there's enough xp in the world to make it a set of quests that people would run regularly, without being unbalancing.

[Zenako]

yeah, I think a periodic re-evaluation of the quests' xp and loot is in order. But there are some quests that simply don't get played because they just aren't fun. I actually like the first round of necro quests (tomb of X heart series). But the second (tomb of the shadow X) is like a set of trips to the dentist. I don't know if there's enough xp in the world to make it a set of quests that people would run regularly, without being unbalancing.

But I like going to the dentist...

Seriously, once again with the right prep and mindset, they are no more difficult than any quest, BUT, since undead can not be criticalled, Barbs and Rogues don't like it since they feel gimped. Lots of CC spells don't work so some casters feel gimped (mainly bards without Song of the Dead), etc and so on. My Undead FE ranger had a good time in their. Oh and the EXP for all the older Necro quests was bumped up significantly during that review. A lot of the tier 1 quests went from 660 base to about 1500 base EXP, which if you add in the various perks and bonuses can end up with close to 3K or more now from them.

[Xalted_Vol]

If they were all equal for instance 1st lvl quests were worth this much and all 6th level quests were all worth the same. I WOULD JUST RUN THE SHORTEST QUESTS FOR MAX XP Its like communism if every 7th level quest was worth the same I wouyld do the least amount of work and get the same reward.

[Primalhowl]

I think there is a baseline assumption here that is rather sad.

That assumption is that when a person makes a character, their goal is to reach the XP cap as quickly as possible. Now this may be true in the case of some players, but I would argue that there are many others, like myself, who actually enjoy taking our time and going through some of the less played adventures.

Why?

Because quite frankly, when you reach the (current) endgame, what is there to do? Shroud runs? Reaver raids?

Seriously... I think people have forgotten (or never learned) that it is the journey from level 1 to cap that is supposed to be the fun part.

[Arianrhod]

I think there is a baseline assumption here that is rather sad.

That assumption is that when a person makes a character, their goal is to reach the XP cap as quickly as possible. Now this may be true in the case of some players, but I would argue that there are many others, like myself, who actually enjoy taking our time and going through some of the less played adventures.

Why?

Because quite frankly, when you reach the (current) endgame, what is there to do? Shroud runs? Reaver raids?

Seriously... I think people have forgotten (or never learned) that it is the journey from level 1 to cap that is supposed to be the fun part.

I like going through the less-played quests too....but I'd rather not have to do them all solo
Equalizing the exp for effort SOMEWHAT (not rigidly) might help encourage more players to break out of the WW-STK-TR-Delera's-SC-[leap to Gianthold with level 8 characters] mold. Maybe