Take the Pledge not to Exploit Here:

[EinarMal]

The whole point of my post was there are people around here who get very upset with the Big Mans bug, yet have no problem
using bad AI to regen mana to full. If the Devs wanted you to take ten minutes to regen all yer mana Im sure they would
just've put a rest shrine in instead.

Sorry to quote just you, but it is tiresome to me when people start getting on a soap box (not saying you) and start saying you shouldn't do "X" because that is exploiting mob AI then they go and shield block a door and watch the stupid mobs cook in the firewall and don't hesitate at all.

All I know is the Devs put in collision detection so that mobs can't pass through players, to me that means any kind of surrounding/blocking/walling is part of the game design period. It wouldn't be that hard to add some logic to the mobs to say, path to my target "X" is blocked, attack nearest guy "Y" instead for the next 10 seconds or until dead regardless of agro list.

Maybe they have done some of this I don't know.

[Strakeln]

Is it bad when a game's forum "community" has the effect of making one want to quit the game?

[krud]

All I know is the Devs put in collision detection so that mobs can't pass through players, to me that means any kind of surrounding/blocking/walling is part of the game design period. It wouldn't be that hard to add some logic to the mobs to say, path to my target "X" is blocked, attack nearest guy "Y" instead for the next 10 seconds or until dead regardless of agro list.

or even better is to have the mobs just flail away when blocked. Anything within range should get hit, just the same as when we swing at untargetted mobs. It can't be that difficult to figure out.

[Amaras]

I will pledge not to... wait.. we can do that? *goes off to exploit and get phat lewt*

[Westerner]

AI Tactic:
A method by which a mob's aggro can be temporarily channeled at a player beyond the mob's effective reach, or at a player equipped to handle that aggro with minimal risk. Examples: Using a puller on Von6 Pillars, Hero method, shield blocking doors.

AI Exploit:
A method by which a mob's aggro can be permanently shut off. Example: "bugging" the Pit Fiend in the Shroud part 5.

[Delt]

AI Tactic:
A method by which a mob's aggro can be temporarily channeled at a player beyond the mob's effective reach, or at a player equipped to handle that aggro with minimal risk. Examples: Using a puller on Von6 Pillars, Hero method, shield blocking doors.

AI Exploit:
A method by which a mob's aggro can be permanently shut off. Example: "bugging" the Pit Fiend in the Shroud part 5.

Don't bother, people's definition of a tactic and an exploit are always going to vary. By your definition, perching and ranging mobs via terrain so that they can't really hit me back would be Ok - but I know for a fact many people (and many other MMO's) would call that exploitation.

Just play and have fun. If you want to abuse questionable tactics during gameplay, go nuts - really it's the devs job to patch those holes up. Now when you start actively abuses certain facets of the game to achieve clearly unintended results (like tele/trading in a quest, DCing, waiting and gaining items you shouldn't Or manipulate client/server packets, then that is a TOTALLY different issue).

[Vhlad]

If you stand on a high horse, and wave your finger or call someone out over one specific exploit of the AI, then you should not be embracing other exploits of the AI.

For example. What are you going to do if the pit fiend or some other boss accidently bugs because someone died (or whatever) ? Are you going to just ddoor out? Wouldn't finishing the raid when the boss is bugged be exploiting/ taking advantage of and benefiting from a bug?

How about these examples:

Ghosts getting stuck in part 2. Intended? Is the magic of specific trees holding the spirits? Or is this an issue with AI and pathing?

Shield or body blocking a door and firewalling, so the mob aggros the caster and just runs up against the fighters, not attacking them. This is exploiting the AI.

Kiting a mob in circles while people use the pools to regen SP in part 5. More exploiting the AI.

Splitting up into 2 groups and ranging the pit fiend or demon queen so they switch aggro back and forth and stay in the middle. Again, exploiting the AI.

Boxing the pit fiend in with melee and having casters/rangers draw aggro. Also exploiting the AI.

Kiting mobs and "tricking" them to run into and stand in firewalls, or sphere of dancing, or acid fog, etc. Another example of exploiting buggy/poor AI. A DM in real pnp would not control an intelligent creature like that.

Making the titan stand over the giant crystal laser that kills him, 6 times. Another exploit of ******** AI. In fact IMO Turbine DESIGNS these quests around us manhandling and wrangling the AI.

Sheesh, IMO having fighters even surround the fiend and attack him is exploiting the bad AI. He should beeline toward all the clerics kill them first, as we would do. Maybe we should have all 12 of us stand right up to him so as not to exploit the ******** AI and let him own us?

Bottom Line:
We're playing a game. Trying to have fun. It's not my place to try to "guess" what we are and are not supposed to do. If there is a bug Turbine needs to fix it, or come out and say dont do THIS or you will get banned, and we are watching (and then, after the warning, actually ban people for doing THIS, whatever THIS is). Otherwise I will just play the game I'm given in the most cost effective and efficient way possible, and not make up rules or restrictions to supplement bad AI.

[Harncw]

I do solemnly pledge to not let other people tell me how I should play a game!

[feynman]

I do solemnly pledge to not let other people tell me how I should play a game!

/signe- wait, what about noobs?

[captain1z]

Read the pledge

As usual I have no idea what the reason behind it is (Im never up on that kinda stuff)

I play fair as much as possible and but I dont call foul when I can get the AI to do something that will help me... such as getting himself stuck in a hole or in a narrow space so I can gut him safely. Things like standing in a spot that for whatever reason makes me immune to all attacks I cant stomach......... so I guess I walk a gray line..... Im ok with my gray space.

I like a few others in this thread thought swearing on the soul of Gary Gygax was a bit much and left me feeling tainted after reading it.

Swear on dice,your players handbook...... swear to the loot gods and if you break your oath

"may all your vorpals be Viscious"


but gary was a bit much...... just my 2 cents

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Im talking about boxing a boss into a corner while someone on the other side of the screen has aggro.

You dont think its an exploit for that boss to be surrounded by people yet not strike at any of them?

I guess he could be so enraged that he is solely focused on one person, but I dont think thats how its supposed
to work.

And as for "if they didnt want you to then they wouldn't..." could be said of anything.

Actually the AI throughout the game works that way. Are you suggesting no door blocking tactics either? They take advantage of the same AI weakness and ppl use block and firewall all over the place.

[Strakeln]

I do solemnly pledge to not let other people tell me how I should play a game!

/signed

[captain1z]

Actually the AI throughout the game works that way. Are you suggesting no door blocking tactics either? They take advantage of the same AI weakness and ppl use block and firewall all over the place.

If AI could be programmed they way I play my lesser intelligence monsters when I DM, the game would be a bit better.

Its very simple:


- 1st I go after whoever looks most appetizing

- then I go after the one who hurts me

- after all that I just go after whoever is the closest

(example: party walks into a room with a rust monster..... the rust monster chases the warforged but he climbs a ladder out of reach. The rust monster then runs towards the closest armored fighter in the group but gets shot with an arrow by the rogue on the other side of the room. The rust monster, thinking the rogue is trying to steal his tasty meal, charges the rogue.)

[Mentor]

I appologize if anyone too offense against my mentioning Gary Gygax in the pledge. I was trying to remind people that a real DM would not allow mobs to just stand there, and that we should try as best as we can to stay true to the original spirit of how a real DM would conduct the quest.

I do not feel the blocking of doors is an exploit, the same tactic would be used regardless of the mobs being able to hit the blockers or not. It is a good tactic. Yes the mobs should be able to hit anything in front of them when they swing, just like we do, and when this is fixed, people will still used this tactic, and just heal the blockers more.

The pools seem to me to have been placed there with the intent for getting mana back while the mob(s) are engaged with other people. I see no problem with someone running around kiting the last mob while everyone else stays out of the way. All mobs in all games I have played chase you when you hit them. Surrounding the mob while it has agro on someone else and it does no damage to the people surrounding it, would be exploiting the stupid programming. When mobs are given the same ability as we have to swing and hit anything near them regardless of who they are agroed on, then this won't be an issue.

Mentor

[ChildrenofBodom]

First, I havent created a thread about not exploiting.
Second, Im not saying Im upstanding, far from it in fact.

Here's the deal, if yer DM wouldn't let ya do it then consider it an exploit.

"Ok so you port into this room, dead, you come alive and the four bosses are back"
"Ok what we're gonna do is kill three of them, bix one in and let our casters regen while we are a human wall"
"Ok cool, he swings and kills you all then turns on the casters"
"But he's aggro'd on the ranger who's way oevr there!"
"Umm, yeah, but you're standing right in front of him"

The whole point of my post was there are people around here who get very upset with the Big Mans bug, yet have no problem
using bad AI to regen mana to full. If the Devs wanted you to take ten minutes to regen all yer mana Im sure they would
just've put a rest shrine in instead.

Gonna have to disagree with you here Bee.

What is the difference between boxing in and running them around?

Here is the difference:

Boxing in - You can go grab a soda and a snack while waiting for others.

Running around - Great, you have to sit here for 10 minutes press W and going in circles, that's real fun.

Which would you prefer? This game is supposed to be about having fun, this game isn't a job.

Noob.

[llevenbaxx]

Ive only completed the raid twice and I assume it wasnt an expoit due to the extreme cost to my clr. That said, Ive done it legit, if they expect me to farm the living **** out of a quest to get enough useful items to gether I could care less how it gets done by the fifty forth time... They implimented the mind numbingly boring, not us...

[Impaqt]

First, I havent created a thread about not exploiting.
Second, Im not saying Im upstanding, far from it in fact.

Here's the deal, if yer DM wouldn't let ya do it then consider it an exploit.

"Ok so you port into this room, dead, you come alive and the four bosses are back"
"Ok what we're gonna do is kill three of them, bix one in and let our casters regen while we are a human wall"
"Ok cool, he swings and kills you all then turns on the casters"
"But he's aggro'd on the ranger who's way oevr there!"
"Umm, yeah, but you're standing right in front of him"

The whole point of my post was there are people around here who get very upset with the Big Mans bug, yet have no problem
using bad AI to regen mana to full. If the Devs wanted you to take ten minutes to regen all yer mana Im sure they would
just've put a rest shrine in instead.

First, SInce you've Describe this "Exploit" in great detail, its pretty obvious the Devs dont consider it an exploit.. Otherwise, you'd be Permabanned from the Forums here.

And let me Fix your Scenario

"Ok so you port into this room, dead, you come alive and the four bosses are back"

"Ok what we're gonna do is kill three of them, then Trip, Hold, Grapple, FtS, and otherwise Incapacitate the 4th until the caster can regen his mana int he ppl"

[smatt]

Enough said. True on both items.

In the case of monster AI, Turbine has the responsibility to correct the issue. They have acknowledged that they will do so. Let it go. Conversation over. If you don't want to be a part of it then ask or make it clear at the beginning so people can choose.

It isn't rocket science. It really is that simple.

I would agree, it's still wrong.. But whatever

The over-powering of toons through the proliferation of uber loot, by using questioanble tactics is a game changing problem to be sure. Mostly what boterhs me about it I guess, is that the peole who use such tactics A LOT, then make wild claims about being UBER, about beating this in this time, or about having this many spell points ect etc etc. Just as with items like the skiver which we all know the vast majority of people who actually have them, aquired the tome pages through, lets say "questionable" means. Heck, there's at least one guild who have STACKS stored away that they "obtained" through questionable means, I watched them doing the conga line into the Abbot pre-raid for days on end, so their denial is unwarranted. OK, so now the standard for the power level of Sorcs has risen......

This game despite the fact that much of it is player skill driven, also revolves around equipment. A good example, say your basketball team had awesoem $400 shoes, and your opponents didn't have ny shoes..... Is there an advantage to having those shoes? It doesn't mean that the shoeless Joes will lose the game. But it would certainly give the the OC rich boys a leg up. And you can bet that when the OC rich boys win the game.... The chest thumping shall come very quikly. Should such a thing bother me, probably not, but it does, and I'd say it likely, just a guess here, bothers many people.

Now whether people exploit or not shouldn't really affect others, and really from an ethical stance I could careless if they do or not. It's like a little white lie really. But it is infact a game changing situation when the Devs have to adjust the game because the stoked out players are beating things to easy. And to deny that the actual abilities of toons is ALL bnased on player ability and not neccesarily also tied to equipment, I'd say is false. At the higher levels DDO is VERY equipment dependent.

So in the end, do I REALLY care if people use exploits over and over... Nawwwwww, does it bother me when they "brag" about accomplishments, that invovled using those exploits, while failing to mention that they used those exploits? YES

[smatt]

First, SInce you've Describe this "Exploit" in great detail, its pretty obvious the Devs dont consider it an exploit.. Otherwise, you'd be Permabanned from the Forums here.

Perhaps they haven't seen the post yet

Or maybe they're chosing to not enforce it, as it seems at least 75% of the groups out there (A MAJOR GUESTIMATE) are using it. Heck, some guilds use it over and over all day long, with no fear of anything happening, and then brag about how uber they are. Maybe they're letting it go till they can fix it.....

[bobbryan2]

And what about people that just really like to summon monsters for those kinds of fights? They're all exploiters because Turbine happened to make the Pit Fiend suddenly bug out?

It's really hard for me to get behind all this nonsense. I mean, what if Cone of Cold suddenly bugged him out. You'd have tons of people that would immediately say, "Stop using Cone of Cold!" But... Cone of Cold is a valid spell to be using.... the fact that it bugs the Pit Fiend out isn't my fault.

This is on Turbine to fix. It's not like people are coming up with crazy scenarios and carefully manipulating the system in a pattern of events that eventually leads to some exploit happening. People are casting a spell... it's not really an exploit.

The fact is, Turbine has allowed plenty of discussions to continue on what exactly bugs him, AND they've said they'll fix it.

Can't we just leave it at that?