Paladin Prestige Class

[RavenStormclaw]

Wow, just read another 180+ post thread on Paladins. It seems this is a very hot topic. However, one issues I see over and over and over again is that the new enhancments are not enough... now before any reads no further and comments on that I in no way advocate one way or another on that issues...yet any way. The exhalted smites are two infrequent oweing to the fact they are one shot only. the rez abilities aren't needed etc. Having read all of this more then once one indisputable conclusion can be drawn. No one, sadly not even the devs it seems, knows where they wan't Paladins to go as a class. Some want to the enhancments and changes to smite to be bursts with cool downs like many shot (this would be going the dps route) (actually most if not all of us would like this), others want more spells added, and stll others seem to advocate being in the back role to everything is ok and the enhancemetns as they stand are ok. The Dev's with 2 polar opposite enhancement lines don't seem to know where they want to go with the Paladin either. With this in mind it seems that it is time to let the players decide much the same way bards can choose between warchanter, virtuoso and spellsinger. Thus I present two different, hopefully not over powered, Paladin prestige class enhancements.

Paladin Defender I: Your dedication to protecting the innocent has led to dedicate your prayers to becoming the last becon of hope when all else has failed. Your prayer were answered by your gods. You gain a permanent +1 to your BOG. Your power and holiness have seeped into your shield effectively doubling its base AC and Dr values. Your charisma modifier is multiplied by 1.5 for your saves now. You gain the defense stance ability.

Defensive Stance: Once per rest you may employ defensive stance. Your charisma modifier is added to your AC, your AC increase from blocking is doubled, and you have DR20. This effect lasts 30 seconds + your charimsa modifier x 5 seconds

Cost 6 AP, prereq of BOGIII, minimum level 12

Paladin Defender II: Adds another permanent +1 to you BOG. Defensive stance now useable twice per rest and lasts 30 seconds + charisma modifier x 10


Cost 2 AP, Minimum level 16, prereq of BOG IV

Paladin Captain: Your desire to destroy evil has led you to pray for the abilites to do so. Your prayers have been answered. The sheer terror you strike in beings of evil has led you to permanently add your charisma modifier to your attack and damage rolls. In addition your holiness radiates off of you and and creature of evil alignment suffers 2d6 holy damge on any hit they score upon you. Your save rolls are alos increase by 1.5 x charisma modifier.

In addition your gain the Righteous Sword ability

Once per rest you can enter a holy rage during this time your gain double your charisma modifier to hit and damage as well a temporary holy boost to Str and Con equal to 1/2 your charisma modifier. This effect lasts 30 sec + charisma modifier x 5 seconds.

AP cost 6, minimum level 12 pre req extra smite evil III

Paladin captain II: Your charisma modifier to attack and damage is now 1.50 and you can use righteous sword twice per rest and exten the duratin by 30 + charisma modifier x 10 seconds

AP 2, minimum level 16

Not perfect I am sure but feel free to complain, flame, praise etc. Just my two cent in trying to help.

Raven

[Ministry]

Now that's Paladin Love.

Very nice.

I would play either.

[Wutinni]

I'm not buying into the mass outcry for Paladin buffs and features. They have the best saves, great AC, Spells, the ability to self heal better than any other melee class, and they are excellent for soloing. If you want to lead the DPS/kill count roll a fighter or Barbarian instead of trying to make the class something it has never been in PNP nor will it be in DDO.

[RavenStormclaw]

I'm not buying into the mass outcry for Paladin buffs and features. They have the best saves, great AC, Spells, the ability to self heal better than any other melee class, and they are excellent for soloing. If you want to lead the DPS/kill count roll a fighter or Barbarian instead of trying to make the class something it has never been in PNP nor will it be in DDO.

No one here has said anything about wanting to lead the kill count... in fact one of the enhancements suggested has nothing to do with killing.

A little reading goes a long way.... I doubt you even read what I wrote.

[Wutinni]

I've read far too many posts on the matter, including yours. If its not about DPS or increasing kill count then what the heck is the problem? Paladins are far less one dimensional than barbarians, with more abilities than fighters. Ironically they are one of the best multiclass class which kinda makes minor options such as the ones you suggested pointless. Perhaps if you could enlighten me on where the weak points of the Paladin class are, giving them enhancements might make more sense.

[Cowdenicus]

I've read far too many posts on the matter, including yours. If its not about DPS or increasing kill count then what the heck is the problem? Paladins are far less one dimensional than barbarians, with more abilities than fighters. Ironically they are one of the best multiclass class which kinda makes minor options such as the ones you suggested pointless. Perhaps if you could enlighten me on where the weak points of the Paladin class are, giving them enhancements might make more sense.

The weak point of the Paladin class would be levels 4-16. They are too front loaded and need some depth. Also the abilities of fighters to surpass them defensively and offensively at the same time has made the paladin kinda gimp, no offense.

[Cowdenicus]

I would change the paladin save bonus to read Against evil sources. A flat 1.5 times to saves is too much probably. The AP costs need to probably go up to 2 and 4, I would make the minimum level for the first tier lower (say 10) as opposed to 12, and you could even offer enhancements to the PrC's for extra costs.

In fact, I might advise lowering the level for these down to 6 now that I think about it, second level at 12, and throw in lower priced cheaper enhancements to these between 8 and 20.

For example:

I would say DR 10/good (as opposed to DR/20) for the first part of defender.

Then improved Defender DR enhancements.

1: 1 AP DR/10 good becomes DR/15 good
2: 2 AP DR/15 Good Becomes DR/20 Good
3: 4 AP DR/20 Good Becomes DR/25-

Paladin Captain:

Improved Holy Wrath

1: 1 AP Holy Damage Shield Increased by 1d6 to total 3d6
2: 2 AP Holy Damage Shield Increased by another 1d6 to total 4d6
3: 4 AP Holy Damage Shield Increased by a final 2d6 to total 6d6

with the caveat this only works against evil creatures, AND you have to take damage for this to proc.

After spending 15 AP this ability should be powerful.

[RavenStormclaw]

I would change the paladin save bonus to read Against evil sources. A flat 1.5 times to saves is too much probably. The AP costs need to probably go up to 2 and 4, I would make the minimum level for the first tier lower (say 10) as opposed to 12, and you could even offer enhancements to the PrC's for extra costs.

In fact, I might advise lowering the level for these down to 6 now that I think about it, second level at 12, and throw in lower priced cheaper enhancements to these between 8 and 20.

For example:

I would say DR 10/good (as opposed to DR/20) for the first part of defender.

Then improved Defender DR enhancements.

1: 1 AP DR/10 good becomes DR/15 good
2: 2 AP DR/15 Good Becomes DR/20 Good
3: 4 AP DR/20 Good Becomes DR/25-

Paladin Captain:

Improved Holy Wrath

1: 1 AP Holy Damage Shield Increased by 1d6 to total 3d6
2: 2 AP Holy Damage Shield Increased by another 1d6 to total 4d6
3: 4 AP Holy Damage Shield Increased by a final 2d6 to total 6d6

with the caveat this only works against evil creatures, AND you have to take damage for this to proc.

After spending 15 AP this ability should be powerful.

These are reasonable alterations Cow my initial attempt was to create something that rewarded higher level Paladins that remained pure; however, I see your changes as resonable and yet rewarding to stay pure as well since you can get the higher more profitible tiers.

[Snoggy]

Wow, just read another 180+ post thread on Paladins. It seems this is a very hot topic. However, one issues I see over and over and over again is that the new enhancments are not enough... now before any reads no further and comments on that I in no way advocate one way or another on that issues...yet any way. The exhalted smites are two infrequent oweing to the fact they are one shot only. the rez abilities aren't needed etc. Having read all of this more then once one indisputable conclusion can be drawn. No one, sadly not even the devs it seems, knows where they wan't Paladins to go as a class. Some want to the enhancments and changes to smite to be bursts with cool downs like many shot (this would be going the dps route) (actually most if not all of us would like this), others want more spells added, and stll others seem to advocate being in the back role to everything is ok and the enhancemetns as they stand are ok. The Dev's with 2 polar opposite enhancement lines don't seem to know where they want to go with the Paladin either. With this in mind it seems that it is time to let the players decide much the same way bards can choose between warchanter, virtuoso and spellsinger. Thus I present two different, hopefully not over powered, Paladin prestige class enhancements.

Paladin Defender I: Your dedication to protecting the innocent has led to dedicate your prayers to becoming the last becon of hope when all else has failed. Your prayer were answered by your gods. You gain a permanent +1 to your BOG. Your power and holiness have seeped into your shield effectively doubling its base AC and Dr values. Your charisma modifier is multiplied by 1.5 for your saves now. You gain the defense stance ability.

Defensive Stance: Once per rest you may employ defensive stance. Your charisma modifier is added to your AC, your AC increase from blocking is doubled, and you have DR20. This effect lasts 30 seconds + your charimsa modifier x 5 seconds

Cost 6 AP, prereq of BOGIII, minimum level 12

Paladin Defender II: Adds another permanent +1 to you BOG. Defensive stance now useable twice per rest and lasts 30 seconds + charisma modifier x 10


Cost 2 AP, Minimum level 16, prereq of BOG IV

Paladin Captain: Your desire to destroy evil has led you to pray for the abilites to do so. Your prayers have been answered. The sheer terror you strike in beings of evil has led you to permanently add your charisma modifier to your attack and damage rolls. In addition your holiness radiates off of you and and creature of evil alignment suffers 2d6 holy damge on any hit they score upon you. Your save rolls are alos increase by 1.5 x charisma modifier.

In addition your gain the Righteous Sword ability

Once per rest you can enter a holy rage during this time your gain double your charisma modifier to hit and damage as well a temporary holy boost to Str and Con equal to 1/2 your charisma modifier. This effect lasts 30 sec + charisma modifier x 5 seconds.

AP cost 6, minimum level 12 pre req extra smite evil III

Paladin captain II: Your charisma modifier to attack and damage is now 1.50 and you can use righteous sword twice per rest and exten the duratin by 30 + charisma modifier x 10 seconds

AP 2, minimum level 16

Not perfect I am sure but feel free to complain, flame, praise etc. Just my two cent in trying to help.

Raven

My suggestion, and you're probably not going to like it ... is to separate defensive stance and "holy rage" into their own enhancements. Require level II of the enhancement to take. Make them cost 6 AP. And then it'd be a tad more balanced. Also, I'd come up with a more paladin-like name than holy "rage." Maybe Holy Fervor? Or Holy Power? I just don't see "rage" as befitting a paladin in terms of naming conventions.

Yes, my suggestion makes it very expensive to do the things you suggest. But, imo, the benefits you gain from your ideas should indeed be very expensive because they are rather powerful.

Interesting ideas in flavor with the paladin class to a certain extent. But very powerful ideas. And as such, should reflec the cost in action points.

[RavenStormclaw]

My suggestion, and you're probably not going to like it ... is to separate defensive stance and "holy rage" into their own enhancements. Require level II of the enhancement to take. Make them cost 6 AP. And then it'd be a tad more balanced. Also, I'd come up with a more paladin-like name than holy "rage." Maybe Holy Fervor? Or Holy Power? I just don't see "rage" as befitting a paladin in terms of naming conventions.

Yes, my suggestion makes it very expensive to do the things you suggest. But, imo, the benefits you gain from your ideas should indeed be very expensive because they are rather powerful.

Interesting ideas in flavor with the paladin class to a certain extent. But very powerful ideas. And as such, should reflec the cost in action points.

Not a bad idea Snoggy these tend to be very powerfull and perhaps granting them would be a bit much. I think cow came up with a good idea for the name Holy Wrath instead of Holy rage (made it up on the fly...lol) although Holy Fervor sounds cool.

[Snoggy]

Not a bad idea Snoggy these tend to be very powerfull and perhaps granting them would be a bit much. I think cow came up with a good idea for the name Holy Wrath instead of Holy rage (made it up on the fly...lol) although Holy Fervor sounds cool.

Wooooo. Holy Wrath sounds very much in flavor (got me thinking of the old Magic the Gathering standby in white, Wrath of God).

Yeah, I look at it this way, if I read your idea and only want to quibble back and forth on costs ... then your idea's already won me over, lol.



I like what your idea is trying to achieve with the class. So to me that's really one of the more important factors. You're looking to improve on what Paladins do and you're looking to do this at the back end instead of the front end. Costs can be tweaked back and forth here and there until something clicks. But to me, the hardest part (finding something that fits the class and has late-game use) has been dealt with in your idea.

[RavenStormclaw]

Wooooo. Holy Wrath sounds very much in flavor (got me thinking of the old Magic the Gathering standby in white, Wrath of God).

Yeah, I look at it this way, if I read your idea and only want to quibble back and forth on costs ... then your idea's already won me over, lol.



I like what your idea is trying to achieve with the class. So to me that's really one of the more important factors. You're looking to improve on what Paladins do and you're looking to do this at the back end instead of the front end. Costs can be tweaked back and forth here and there until something clicks. But to me, the hardest part (finding something that fits the class and has late-game use) has been dealt with in your idea.

Thanks Snoggy, I was tying to create something usefull without being so overpowered that it never happen. I am glad people seem to like this idea.

[sigtrent]

I like the defensive option pretty well. Its around +4 ac most of the time which is decent. It would encourage multi classing with fighter to get the double tower shield base though.

I thing your offensive offering is way too strong. The base abbility would put barbarian rage to shame (not including crit rage) and the holy rage would only go beyond that.)

[RavenStormclaw]

I like the defensive option pretty well. Its around +4 ac most of the time which is decent. It would encourage multi classing with fighter to get the double tower shield base though.

I thing your offensive offering is way too strong. The base abbility would put barbarian rage to shame (not including crit rage) and the holy rage would only go beyond that.)

True, but it is set up that the top end of the offensive enhancement is gotten at the higher levels where monsters can have 2000+ hp....I don't think it is to over powered...besides at higher levels should be a force to be reckoned with. The chr bonus really doesn't over power that much considering barbarians are raged nearly all the time. Yes Holy wrath is over powered that is why I set it with a relatively short duration and at max only 2 times per rest. I really tried to balance the power with the cost and availabilty.

[JayDubya]

I like the ideas behind divergent paladin builds - defensive vs. offensive. I think that makes sense.

Personally, I think if the number of Smite Evils was based on (Turn Undead + Charisma bonus) / Rest, and there were enhancements to boost the potency of Smite Evil, you'd get a potential angle for a powerful attack paladin (with the right kind of weapon). I'm not looking to out-DPS the barbarians, but it is frustrating to see LFMs that include Fighter and Barbarian, and no paladin (and there were _no_ paladins already in the group).

[sigtrent]

True, but it is set up that the top end of the offensive enhancement is gotten at the higher levels where monsters can have 2000+ hp....I don't think it is to over powered...besides at higher levels should be a force to be reckoned with. The chr bonus really doesn't over power that much considering barbarians are raged nearly all the time. Yes Holy wrath is over powered that is why I set it with a relatively short duration and at max only 2 times per rest. I really tried to balance the power with the cost and availabilty.

Barbarian rage at its current maximum can grant +10 strength which is +5 to hit and damage. (+7 two handed damage +2 off hand). To get the "all the time" effect it costs them 3 enhancement lines about 15 AP. Even a conservative paladin (starting 13 cha) can have a charisma of about 24 which is +7 to hit and damage no matter the weapon style and is on all the time and has now drawbacks like rage does (rage prevents all spell casting and spell item use). It's too good.

[Cowdenicus]

Barbarian rage at its current maximum can grant +10 strength which is +5 to hit and damage. (+7 two handed damage +2 off hand). To get the "all the time" effect it costs them 3 enhancement lines about 15 AP. Even a conservative paladin (starting 13 cha) can have a charisma of about 24 which is +7 to hit and damage no matter the weapon style and is on all the time and has now drawbacks like rage does (rage prevents all spell casting and spell item use). It's too good.

But it is not a permanent bonus, it is like a rage clicky in fact that lasts for only a couple of minutes, and through the enhancement as it is set up is only 2 times between shrines. It lasts for about 2 minutes a pop.

[sigtrent]

But it is not a permanent bonus, it is like a rage clicky in fact that lasts for only a couple of minutes, and through the enhancement as it is set up is only 2 times between shrines. It lasts for about 2 minutes a pop.

This is his proposal
"Paladin Captain: Your desire to destroy evil has led you to pray for the abilites to do so. Your prayers have been answered. The sheer terror you strike in beings of evil has led you to permanently add your charisma modifier to your attack and damage rolls. In addition your holiness radiates off of you and and creature of evil alignment suffers 2d6 holy damge on any hit they score upon you. Your save rolls are alos increase by 1.5 x charisma modifier."

A permanent add of con to all attack and damage rolls
2d6 reactive damage to all hits by evil attackers
and an extra bonus to saving throws.

Too strong, way too strong. Really it would be the best single offensive ability in the game.

[COBHCLambofgod]

i like these enhancements cause my pally (now an evasion pally) just sits there and makes saves its kinda dumb that even with divine favor goin i still cant hit anything with a 26 str. and damage pleaz!!! i put out about 1/16 of a barb even with the sneak attack (which always goes off cuase i never get the aggro. to me the enhancements are really awesome. i would go wiht the defensive thing cuase i'm a bit of an AC monger. even tho on my pally it sits at a crappy 41, and on my level 10 fighter i have an unbuffed 50.

just my 2 cents

it would be awesome if these were implemented cause the new stuff looks kinda...............meh..........

[sigtrent]

[QUOTE=COBHCLambofgod;1654427]i put out about 1/16 of a barb even with the sneak attack QUOTE]

Well... a typical barbarian is probably doing around 1d12+40 damage if they are well buffed. So to do 1/16th the damage your average swing would be around 3.125 damage which seems pretty unlikely.