Paladin Prestige Class

[RavenStormclaw]

Wow, just read another 180+ post thread on Paladins. It seems this is a very hot topic. However, one issues I see over and over and over again is that the new enhancments are not enough... now before any reads no further and comments on that I in no way advocate one way or another on that issues...yet any way. The exhalted smites are two infrequent oweing to the fact they are one shot only. the rez abilities aren't needed etc. Having read all of this more then once one indisputable conclusion can be drawn. No one, sadly not even the devs it seems, knows where they wan't Paladins to go as a class. Some want to the enhancments and changes to smite to be bursts with cool downs like many shot (this would be going the dps route) (actually most if not all of us would like this), others want more spells added, and stll others seem to advocate being in the back role to everything is ok and the enhancemetns as they stand are ok. The Dev's with 2 polar opposite enhancement lines don't seem to know where they want to go with the Paladin either. With this in mind it seems that it is time to let the players decide much the same way bards can choose between warchanter, virtuoso and spellsinger. Thus I present two different, hopefully not over powered, Paladin prestige class enhancements.

Paladin Defender I: Your dedication to protecting the innocent has led to dedicate your prayers to becoming the last becon of hope when all else has failed. Your prayer were answered by your gods. You gain a permanent +1 to your BOG. Your power and holiness have seeped into your shield effectively doubling its base AC and Dr values. Your charisma modifier is multiplied by 1.5 for your saves now. You gain the defense stance ability.

Defensive Stance: Once per rest you may employ defensive stance. Your charisma modifier is added to your AC, your AC increase from blocking is doubled, and you have DR20. This effect lasts 30 seconds + your charimsa modifier x 5 seconds

Cost 6 AP, prereq of BOGIII, minimum level 12

Paladin Defender II: Adds another permanent +1 to you BOG. Defensive stance now useable twice per rest and lasts 30 seconds + charisma modifier x 10


Cost 2 AP, Minimum level 16, prereq of BOG IV

Paladin Captain: Your desire to destroy evil has led you to pray for the abilites to do so. Your prayers have been answered. The sheer terror you strike in beings of evil has led you to permanently add your charisma modifier to your attack and damage rolls. In addition your holiness radiates off of you and and creature of evil alignment suffers 2d6 holy damge on any hit they score upon you. Your save rolls are alos increase by 1.5 x charisma modifier.

In addition your gain the Righteous Sword ability

Once per rest you can enter a holy rage during this time your gain double your charisma modifier to hit and damage as well a temporary holy boost to Str and Con equal to 1/2 your charisma modifier. This effect lasts 30 sec + charisma modifier x 5 seconds.

AP cost 6, minimum level 12 pre req extra smite evil III

Paladin captain II: Your charisma modifier to attack and damage is now 1.50 and you can use righteous sword twice per rest and exten the duratin by 30 + charisma modifier x 10 seconds

AP 2, minimum level 16

Not perfect I am sure but feel free to complain, flame, praise etc. Just my two cent in trying to help.

Raven

[Ministry]

Now that's Paladin Love.

Very nice.

I would play either.

[Wutinni]

I'm not buying into the mass outcry for Paladin buffs and features. They have the best saves, great AC, Spells, the ability to self heal better than any other melee class, and they are excellent for soloing. If you want to lead the DPS/kill count roll a fighter or Barbarian instead of trying to make the class something it has never been in PNP nor will it be in DDO.

[RavenStormclaw]

I'm not buying into the mass outcry for Paladin buffs and features. They have the best saves, great AC, Spells, the ability to self heal better than any other melee class, and they are excellent for soloing. If you want to lead the DPS/kill count roll a fighter or Barbarian instead of trying to make the class something it has never been in PNP nor will it be in DDO.

No one here has said anything about wanting to lead the kill count... in fact one of the enhancements suggested has nothing to do with killing.

A little reading goes a long way.... I doubt you even read what I wrote.

[Wutinni]

I've read far too many posts on the matter, including yours. If its not about DPS or increasing kill count then what the heck is the problem? Paladins are far less one dimensional than barbarians, with more abilities than fighters. Ironically they are one of the best multiclass class which kinda makes minor options such as the ones you suggested pointless. Perhaps if you could enlighten me on where the weak points of the Paladin class are, giving them enhancements might make more sense.

[Cowdenicus]

I would change the paladin save bonus to read Against evil sources. A flat 1.5 times to saves is too much probably. The AP costs need to probably go up to 2 and 4, I would make the minimum level for the first tier lower (say 10) as opposed to 12, and you could even offer enhancements to the PrC's for extra costs.

In fact, I might advise lowering the level for these down to 6 now that I think about it, second level at 12, and throw in lower priced cheaper enhancements to these between 8 and 20.

For example:

I would say DR 10/good (as opposed to DR/20) for the first part of defender.

Then improved Defender DR enhancements.

1: 1 AP DR/10 good becomes DR/15 good
2: 2 AP DR/15 Good Becomes DR/20 Good
3: 4 AP DR/20 Good Becomes DR/25-

Paladin Captain:

Improved Holy Wrath

1: 1 AP Holy Damage Shield Increased by 1d6 to total 3d6
2: 2 AP Holy Damage Shield Increased by another 1d6 to total 4d6
3: 4 AP Holy Damage Shield Increased by a final 2d6 to total 6d6

with the caveat this only works against evil creatures, AND you have to take damage for this to proc.

After spending 15 AP this ability should be powerful.

[Cowdenicus]

I've read far too many posts on the matter, including yours. If its not about DPS or increasing kill count then what the heck is the problem? Paladins are far less one dimensional than barbarians, with more abilities than fighters. Ironically they are one of the best multiclass class which kinda makes minor options such as the ones you suggested pointless. Perhaps if you could enlighten me on where the weak points of the Paladin class are, giving them enhancements might make more sense.

The weak point of the Paladin class would be levels 4-16. They are too front loaded and need some depth. Also the abilities of fighters to surpass them defensively and offensively at the same time has made the paladin kinda gimp, no offense.

[Wutinni]

The weak point of the Paladin class would be levels 4-16. They are too front loaded and need some depth. Also the abilities of fighters to surpass them defensively and offensively at the same time has made the paladin kinda gimp, no offense.

Although I agree they are front loaded, how is that different from a Barbarian? Critical rage isnt available until level 11 and atleast Paladins get spells (albeit only a few) to play around with.

[Snoggy]

Wow, just read another 180+ post thread on Paladins. It seems this is a very hot topic. However, one issues I see over and over and over again is that the new enhancments are not enough... now before any reads no further and comments on that I in no way advocate one way or another on that issues...yet any way. The exhalted smites are two infrequent oweing to the fact they are one shot only. the rez abilities aren't needed etc. Having read all of this more then once one indisputable conclusion can be drawn. No one, sadly not even the devs it seems, knows where they wan't Paladins to go as a class. Some want to the enhancments and changes to smite to be bursts with cool downs like many shot (this would be going the dps route) (actually most if not all of us would like this), others want more spells added, and stll others seem to advocate being in the back role to everything is ok and the enhancemetns as they stand are ok. The Dev's with 2 polar opposite enhancement lines don't seem to know where they want to go with the Paladin either. With this in mind it seems that it is time to let the players decide much the same way bards can choose between warchanter, virtuoso and spellsinger. Thus I present two different, hopefully not over powered, Paladin prestige class enhancements.

Paladin Defender I: Your dedication to protecting the innocent has led to dedicate your prayers to becoming the last becon of hope when all else has failed. Your prayer were answered by your gods. You gain a permanent +1 to your BOG. Your power and holiness have seeped into your shield effectively doubling its base AC and Dr values. Your charisma modifier is multiplied by 1.5 for your saves now. You gain the defense stance ability.

Defensive Stance: Once per rest you may employ defensive stance. Your charisma modifier is added to your AC, your AC increase from blocking is doubled, and you have DR20. This effect lasts 30 seconds + your charimsa modifier x 5 seconds

Cost 6 AP, prereq of BOGIII, minimum level 12

Paladin Defender II: Adds another permanent +1 to you BOG. Defensive stance now useable twice per rest and lasts 30 seconds + charisma modifier x 10


Cost 2 AP, Minimum level 16, prereq of BOG IV

Paladin Captain: Your desire to destroy evil has led you to pray for the abilites to do so. Your prayers have been answered. The sheer terror you strike in beings of evil has led you to permanently add your charisma modifier to your attack and damage rolls. In addition your holiness radiates off of you and and creature of evil alignment suffers 2d6 holy damge on any hit they score upon you. Your save rolls are alos increase by 1.5 x charisma modifier.

In addition your gain the Righteous Sword ability

Once per rest you can enter a holy rage during this time your gain double your charisma modifier to hit and damage as well a temporary holy boost to Str and Con equal to 1/2 your charisma modifier. This effect lasts 30 sec + charisma modifier x 5 seconds.

AP cost 6, minimum level 12 pre req extra smite evil III

Paladin captain II: Your charisma modifier to attack and damage is now 1.50 and you can use righteous sword twice per rest and exten the duratin by 30 + charisma modifier x 10 seconds

AP 2, minimum level 16

Not perfect I am sure but feel free to complain, flame, praise etc. Just my two cent in trying to help.

Raven

My suggestion, and you're probably not going to like it ... is to separate defensive stance and "holy rage" into their own enhancements. Require level II of the enhancement to take. Make them cost 6 AP. And then it'd be a tad more balanced. Also, I'd come up with a more paladin-like name than holy "rage." Maybe Holy Fervor? Or Holy Power? I just don't see "rage" as befitting a paladin in terms of naming conventions.

Yes, my suggestion makes it very expensive to do the things you suggest. But, imo, the benefits you gain from your ideas should indeed be very expensive because they are rather powerful.

Interesting ideas in flavor with the paladin class to a certain extent. But very powerful ideas. And as such, should reflec the cost in action points.

[Cowdenicus]

Although I agree they are front loaded, how is that different from a Barbarian? Critical rage isnt available until level 11 and atleast Paladins get spells (albeit only a few) to play around with.

Barbarians get increased dr every couple of levels, they get longer rages, they get more rages, they get more str from rages, they get more con from rages, every few levels..... what else..... seriously.

[RavenStormclaw]

I would change the paladin save bonus to read Against evil sources. A flat 1.5 times to saves is too much probably. The AP costs need to probably go up to 2 and 4, I would make the minimum level for the first tier lower (say 10) as opposed to 12, and you could even offer enhancements to the PrC's for extra costs.

In fact, I might advise lowering the level for these down to 6 now that I think about it, second level at 12, and throw in lower priced cheaper enhancements to these between 8 and 20.

For example:

I would say DR 10/good (as opposed to DR/20) for the first part of defender.

Then improved Defender DR enhancements.

1: 1 AP DR/10 good becomes DR/15 good
2: 2 AP DR/15 Good Becomes DR/20 Good
3: 4 AP DR/20 Good Becomes DR/25-

Paladin Captain:

Improved Holy Wrath

1: 1 AP Holy Damage Shield Increased by 1d6 to total 3d6
2: 2 AP Holy Damage Shield Increased by another 1d6 to total 4d6
3: 4 AP Holy Damage Shield Increased by a final 2d6 to total 6d6

with the caveat this only works against evil creatures, AND you have to take damage for this to proc.

After spending 15 AP this ability should be powerful.

These are reasonable alterations Cow my initial attempt was to create something that rewarded higher level Paladins that remained pure; however, I see your changes as resonable and yet rewarding to stay pure as well since you can get the higher more profitible tiers.

[RavenStormclaw]

My suggestion, and you're probably not going to like it ... is to separate defensive stance and "holy rage" into their own enhancements. Require level II of the enhancement to take. Make them cost 6 AP. And then it'd be a tad more balanced. Also, I'd come up with a more paladin-like name than holy "rage." Maybe Holy Fervor? Or Holy Power? I just don't see "rage" as befitting a paladin in terms of naming conventions.

Yes, my suggestion makes it very expensive to do the things you suggest. But, imo, the benefits you gain from your ideas should indeed be very expensive because they are rather powerful.

Interesting ideas in flavor with the paladin class to a certain extent. But very powerful ideas. And as such, should reflec the cost in action points.

Not a bad idea Snoggy these tend to be very powerfull and perhaps granting them would be a bit much. I think cow came up with a good idea for the name Holy Wrath instead of Holy rage (made it up on the fly...lol) although Holy Fervor sounds cool.

[Snoggy]

Not a bad idea Snoggy these tend to be very powerfull and perhaps granting them would be a bit much. I think cow came up with a good idea for the name Holy Wrath instead of Holy rage (made it up on the fly...lol) although Holy Fervor sounds cool.

Wooooo. Holy Wrath sounds very much in flavor (got me thinking of the old Magic the Gathering standby in white, Wrath of God).

Yeah, I look at it this way, if I read your idea and only want to quibble back and forth on costs ... then your idea's already won me over, lol.



I like what your idea is trying to achieve with the class. So to me that's really one of the more important factors. You're looking to improve on what Paladins do and you're looking to do this at the back end instead of the front end. Costs can be tweaked back and forth here and there until something clicks. But to me, the hardest part (finding something that fits the class and has late-game use) has been dealt with in your idea.

[Wutinni]

Barbarians get increased dr every couple of levels, they get longer rages, they get more rages, they get more str from rages, they get more con from rages, every few levels..... what else..... seriously.

ok......

Paladins get extra smites, extra lay on hands, more turn attempts, spells, higher AC enhancements and access to the divine enhancments clerics get. Barb DR is pointless at high level unless your using the boost for DR 15. At high levels stoneskin or even adamantine armor will sub for a Barbs DR.

My closing point is that all classes get tidbits along the way to 16, and yes some classes get a few jump starts but Paladins are balanced for what they should be. Those who think they need to be more uber are those IMO who are wanting to lead the kill counts and out DPS the fighters/Barbarians out there who don't have all the bells and whistles that Paladins are given.

[Cowdenicus]

ok......

Paladins get extra smites, a mechanic that is broken with the whole cost/effect mechanic not working properly half the time extra lay on hands, they get 3 bonus lays yes more turn attempts, That is almost as useful as, come to think of it, i cannot think of anything as useless as the turn mechanic in DDO spells, suffers from the same issue as clerics and casters but even worse due to lack of spell selection higher AC enhancements but not the HIGHEST AC enhancements and access to the divine enhancments clerics get no they dont, but read turn undead for my opinions on the "divine feats". Barb DR is pointless at high level unless your using the boost for DR 15. says the person who does not have to heal himself At high levels stoneskin or even adamantine armor will sub for a Barbs DR. stoneskin at a cost maybe, addy armor, get out of here.

My closing point is that all classes get tidbits along the way to 16, and yes some classes get a few jump starts but Paladins are balanced for what they should be. If what they should be is gimped. Those who think they need to be more uber are those IMO who are wanting to lead the kill counts or even show up on the kill count list and out DPS the fighters/Barbarians or do any dps for that matter out there who don't have all the bells and whistles that Paladins are given. which most fighters splash 3 levels of pally for anyways. Of course Barbarians dont because that gets in the way of mighty rage and crit range at the moment.

Responses In Red

[sumnz]

wutinni its pretty obvious you have never played a paladin. I have a level 16 paladin and my warchanter at level 7 has had more diversity AND dps than my paladin at 16th. AC endgame is a joke, and even if it wasent paladins have to sacrifice way too much to compete with fighters for the same level of ac, and rogues and rangers can outdo them withot shields. Extra smites are also a joke on anything not stationary, as most times it bugs out and misses, or dosent swing at all. Out of 10 smites mabye 3 will land unless im fighting the pit fiend. Im lucky if 2 crit. Turning is a joke and has been since launch. Our spells are the worst in the game save for resistance, so again what we are trading off in talents from a fighter or crit/damage from a barb, we get worthless spells. LoH is unimpressive, a halfling fighter in my guild had so many talents left over he spent them on dragonmarks, and now has just as many "oh shi-" buttons as my paladin, with much better offense and feats.

If paladins get tidbits to 16th then all the other classes are getting steak dinner every level.

[Wutinni]

Roll a neutral Good Barbarian and pretend your a Paladin then.

[Cowdenicus]

Roll a neutral Good Barbarian and pretend your a Paladin then.

No need to, I have a barbarian, and a pally, and a fighter, and 2 clerics, and a bard, and a sorc, and a ranger and a rogue.

Anything else?

Oh that is the list solely on Ghallanda, we can talk about my characters on Thelanis, or Argo or wherever else if you like also.

[RavenStormclaw]

Roll a neutral Good Barbarian and pretend your a Paladin then.

Wutinni, I respect your position... I don't agree with it but I am trying to be nice. Please do me a favor.... either give constructive feedback to the enhancements I suggested such as Snoggy and Cow have done (btw thank you both for the constuctive support) or back off. This is not intended to be one of these debatede threads like you a trying to go. You have stated your opinion...it has been noted. Thank you. Now please move on.

[RavenStormclaw]

Wooooo. Holy Wrath sounds very much in flavor (got me thinking of the old Magic the Gathering standby in white, Wrath of God).

Yeah, I look at it this way, if I read your idea and only want to quibble back and forth on costs ... then your idea's already won me over, lol.



I like what your idea is trying to achieve with the class. So to me that's really one of the more important factors. You're looking to improve on what Paladins do and you're looking to do this at the back end instead of the front end. Costs can be tweaked back and forth here and there until something clicks. But to me, the hardest part (finding something that fits the class and has late-game use) has been dealt with in your idea.

Thanks Snoggy, I was tying to create something usefull without being so overpowered that it never happen. I am glad people seem to like this idea.