Weigh in your vote: TwF vs. ThF.

[Shade]

GrTHF adds no damage, but rather adds another glancing blow on 4th attack.

Also grants a glancing blow on your first attack while moving, which I consider to be the major advantage to the feat.

Having both maxxed out THF and TWF barbarians that have done everything in game i can say:

More targets or faster moving targets - THF is better
Killing mostly stationary targets, especially ones weak to stunning blow, or special weapon effects - TWF is better
Mobs with high DR you can't get thru, or are forced to use a lesser weapon to get thru - THF is better
Mobs that require very specific weapons its tough to get 2 matching ones of ... tends to be my THF guy for me since he only needs 1 and has some really great weapons.

So really both have there pro's and con. I like having 1 of each now, depends on the quest which one I take. Like - running with the devils elite - my twf guy with a couple wounding dwarf axes is better vs rainbow in the dark - my THF is much better due to all the elementals with the high DR you can't get thru.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Thanks for the clarification, Shade.

DR is a major consideration for me. -10 or -15 each to 8 attacks is pretty painful. I'd much rather have -10 or -15 to 4 attacks and double PA and x1.5 STR to help punch through DR. Heck, the extra PA bonus (+8 for me) is almost enough to negate most DR on it's own. Then again, glancing blows are subject to separate DR, too, so that's less of a consideration.

[Illuminati]

I don't get the DR logic....

Mobs w/ DR:

Pit Fiend (Holy / Silver or Tranmuting)
Construst (Smite)
Elemental (W/P)

Basically there is a set for every DR mob or insta kill.

I really see no scenario where THF is better except on multi mobs from glancing blow dmg. I don't have a problem with any of my builds hitting mobs that move. Then again I have OTWF and a higher Attack than say a pure barb with TWF.

[sigtrent]

DR was more of a consideration before transmuting. There are still a few DR/- critters though like mummies.

Insta kill works pretty well but generaly barbarians out dps the kill rate on those.

My fighter still carries a couple of two handers specificaly for DR/- critters since 3 attacks doing 20 damage is better than 6 attacks doing 5 damage. Its less and less common for me to use it now that I have some good transmuting kopeshs though.

[Nick_RC]

2wf piercing overall.

More variety for approaches. Deathnips, w/p, faster vorpalling etc etc.

The thing is alot of people dont understand at end game melees really need to match for maximum effect. I.e ur in a pug, one guys using puncturers, one dps', ones vorpals... all valid routes BUT ive found its much more efficient to match up attack styles i.e all vorpals or all w/p or all dps. W/p sucks when you have 3 raging barbs doing dps and a w/p ranger. Vorpals not nearly effective in the same situation. Sure it takes off con but seriously the most helpful way to contribute in this situation would be to all go dps. Twf allows you all those options as well as dps. 2 handed reduces the potency of 2 of those approaches because you have less attacks (vorpal, wounding) disallows you to even use puncturing so really the only area where they are comparable is pure dps.

Further to this 2wf adds a few subtle changes. Ive been using dps picks in main hand and bodyfeeder rap/ss of gr bane in offhand and **** does it make up for not being able to heal urself. I know you pug farely often bro so ul find the bodyfeeder of gr bane an excellent route when the cleric doesnt heal you as much. Im itchig to get my hands on a para rap of punct to match with my w/p on real high ac mobs. Options - thats why 2f rocks. And often they wont especially before you hit 11. Even good clerics subcontiously or not often heal you last. As a barbarian ur dps is sick but naturally u consume alot of pots (im wf too on groan and dont like to spend more than 2 ap for healing..so i potion...alot....) so this is a great combo for me not only to help save cash but too make up for not having the rog levels.

I have a barbarian with the 2 rog levels and i very much liked his versatility but in terms of share brute force i much prefer my wf 2wf deathnip wielding max PA juggernaut.

Having made a wf barb i dont imagine il play one of another race - the maxed PA line, amazing resistances con etc etc jsut make them comlete and utter juggernauts. Beholders are childs play. If i might make a suggestion - esp at endgame have all your PA lines maxed, make sure you keep ur too hit as extraneously high as possible (carry girds, rage pots, steady handed armbands, haste pots, ul want every littlebonus too hit that you can) and nothing will live through the flurry of massively powerful blows you rain down on them. The wf PA line nearly makes ur PA as hard hitting as a 2 handed user. Too hits dont need to be as high as alot of people think. max those PA lines and if you are really struggling to hit turn off pa and use w/p/vorpal etc etc.

Gluck with it bro.

EDIT - im with krazed on the 2 handed better at low levels - i maxed my PA lines all the way up things would die very fast with 2 handed and the non penalty for not 2wf was nice when you werent completely twinked and making do. I changed to 2wf at lvl 8/9 when i had impr crit/i2wf. If they had changed the ******** attack rates onthe 2 handeds they would be more competative. Not as versatile but still amazing dps. As a side not on 2 handed if you are 2 haneded keep moving...those first 2 attacks are ur money makers even if they are at ur lowest too hit. They are so fast in comparion to the rest of the sequence.


N

[Shade]

I don't get the DR logic....

Maybe because you don't have a high dps THF guy to get it in the first place?

Pit Fiend (Holy / Silver or Tranmuting) - You mean DUAL holy/silver or transmuting. Rare weapons that are difficult to get one of, let alone 2.

Construst (Smite) - Unlike the one quest with constructs in vale - most high lvl constructs do have a good fortitude save and will resist smite enough to make it worthless.. Like mod5s plentiful constructs, flesh golems for example. And the discussion is about DPS, not special weapon effects. FYI falchions and scimitars are equal in chance to smite, so thats a moot point in regards to THF vs TWF.

Elemental (W/P) - Pfft. This is a barbarian forum, go back to the ranger forum if you wanna play that game. W/P vs elementals is patheticly slow at killing vs proper thf dps. And if you wanna focus on mod6 - the only challenging elementals in it are red named anyways - so imune to w/p. (Memnemerez, Damaze the windago, and Anur shub the hellion to be precise)

And thats just a few that have DR, tons more types have DR.. Eladrin, Devils, Etc, etc. And theres lots mroe with DR you can't get thru with transmuting too, like barbarian mobs - which are prevalent in mod6 (generally gnolls) and also many of the luitenants in the shroud - 2 elementals, the barbarian orc, the kobolds epic DR, and if you get the earth elemental - every single luitenant near him with have non-bypassable dr.

I don't have OTWF on my barb as i never planned to, as also as planned I never miss any monster in the game - including the pit fiend on elite with his massive AC, its a worthless feat to me.

The game isn't as black and white as you'd like to think, both styles have there merits, like it or not.

[Nick_RC]

Maybe because you don't have a high dps THF guy to get it in the first place?

Pit Fiend (Holy / Silver or Tranmuting) - You mean DUAL holy/silver or transmuting. Rare weapons that are difficult to get one of, let alone 2.

Transmuting arnt hard to find - transmuting of gr evil /lawful is alot harder.

Construst (Smite) - Unlike the one quest with constructs in vale - most high lvl constructs do have a good fortitude save and will resist smite enough to make it worthless.. Like mod5s plentiful constructs, flesh golems for example. And the discussion is about DPS, not special weapon effects. FYI falchions and scimitars are equal in chance to smite, so thats a moot point in regards to THF vs TWF.

True. Only thing i disagree with is falchion vs scimy. They have the same range sure but number of attacks per second is in favour of the 2wf giving them the edge.

Elemental (W/P) - Pfft. This is a barbarian forum, go back to the ranger forum if you wanna play that game. W/P vs elementals is patheticly slow at killing vs proper thf dps. And if you wanna focus on mod6 - the only challenging elementals in it are red named anyways - so imune to w/p. (Memnemerez, Damaze the windago, and Anur shub the hellion to be precise)

Shade whos being balck and white here? w/p only belongs to ranger?? if ur so one minded as to refuse the logic of some weapons vs others....


The game isn't as black and white as you'd like to think, both styles have there merits, like it or not.

This just makes me laugh - very rich. well at least ur learning.

Comments in red.

[Illuminati]

No worries, I pay little attention to his trash and his subpar builds.

He doesn't invite Rangers to any of his runs because he knows how he will be entirely trumped in the kill count. Two things you have to get over: A: THF is now inferior to TWF and B: Keep hoping for axes Axer

[Shade]

Thats just sad Illuminati. I take rangers on almost every one of my shroud runs, and most any quest in general, usually some of the best ones on the server infact, and I'll be glad if they outkilled me, I like grouping with good players, regardless of class.

I actaully heard you play on the same server as me yet have no idea who you are on there, if you'd like to group sometime and show me how inferior my builds are id be glad to. Perhaps for shroud elite? I would imagine you need the favor.

[KatellaZeyn]

Maybe because you don't have a high dps THF guy to get it in the first place?

Pit Fiend (Holy / Silver or Tranmuting) - You mean DUAL holy/silver or transmuting. Rare weapons that are difficult to get one of, let alone 2.

The thing about Holy Weapons is that the damage they deal is "Good Aligned." "Of Pure Good" weapons deal "Good" aligned damage. Flametouched Iron weapons do as well. Ignoring Transmuting, that doubles the types of weapons you can get that'll bypass DR on such enemies.

[Shade]

The thing about Holy Weapons is that the damage they deal is "Good Aligned." "Of Pure Good" weapons deal "Good" aligned damage. Flametouched Iron weapons do as well. Ignoring Transmuting, that doubles the types of weapons you can get that'll bypass DR on such enemies.

Think you mean devils in general.
"such enemies" in this case is only 1 enemy - the Pit fiend. Arraetrikos, and his dr is good + silver, not one or the other like most devils. So flametouched iron is out, since you can't have that and silver at once.
Silver puregood works - but thats limited to good aligned barbarians, or umd 20+ ones - and thats umd20+ always not just with 3 items swapped since u need to keep switching weapons during phase 4's 3 different stages.

[Illuminati]

Thats just sad Illuminati. I take rangers on almost every one of my shroud runs, and most any quest in general, usually some of the best ones on the server infact, and I'll be glad if they outkilled me, I like grouping with good players, regardless of class.

I actaully heard you play on the same server as me yet have no idea who you are on there, if you'd like to group sometime and show me how inferior my builds are id be glad to. Perhaps for shroud elite? I would imagine you need the favor.

Sure thing.

Illumino Ranger, invite next time I try to join one of your shroud runs where you never invite rangers. I dont need the favor but can open it for you if you like.

BTW, can you let just one of the 6 clerics you need dedicated to you to throw me a heal once in a while?

Thanks =)

[Mad_Bombardier]

I don't get the DR logic....
<snip>
I really see no scenario where THF is better except on multi mobs from glancing blow dmg. I don't have a problem with any of my builds hitting mobs that move. Then again I have OTWF and a higher Attack than say a pure barb with TWF.

DR/- is the major concern. We don't have mummies anymore in Mod6 (unless Ghoste is summoning them and they turn on him ), Barbarian DR3,4,5/- is not much of an issue, so I was specifically thinking of elementals and Shroud portals when I made the comment.

Single target, THF can't compare with TWF outside of those exceptions. But, in groups, glancing blows really come into play and the damage adds up fast. (not to mention the stupid anti-targetting of TWF where you have a target at 12 o'clock and you hit the guy at 5 o'clock anyway ).

[Illuminati]

Even single target I think TWF speed (10 attacks) is greater than THF (5 Attacks) + Glancing Blow dmg. Murderface (guildie) has a max Barb THF. I think his glancing blows hit for around 30+. I'll do the math in a bit but I am pretty sure bursting twf or greater bane out dps's it.

[Strykersz]

Even single target I think TWF speed (10 attacks) is greater than THF (5 Attacks) + Glancing Blow dmg. Murderface (guildie) has a max Barb THF. I think his glancing blows hit for around 30+. I'll do the math in a bit but I am pretty sure bursting twf or greater bane out dps's it.

You shouldn't ever do the entire attack chain with THF. Unless you're being lazy.

[Nick_RC]

You shouldn't ever do the entire attack chain with THF. Unless you're being lazy.

This is def true. Im on the twf train but 2 handed is alot closer if ur not lazy. 1st 2 attacks in the sequence if you can - 3rd is ok - 4 and 5 hould be avoided at all costs. Try more 7 vs 10. 2 handed is still right up there 2 weapon is just more versatile.

N

[Rkik_Dnec]

My barbarian is only level 5 at the moment, so I just got the 3rd attack, but what's the problem with the 4th and 5th attacks? I thought the BAB of the later attacks were usually better. Are the animations just too slow?

Also, how do you go about skipping those attacks in the sequence?

[Shade]

Even single target I think TWF speed (10 attacks) is greater than THF (5 Attacks) + Glancing Blow dmg. Murderface (guildie) has a max Barb THF. I think his glancing blows hit for around 30+. I'll do the math in a bit but I am pretty sure bursting twf or greater bane out dps's it.

The biggest thing you, murderface and 99&#37; of players in generaly don't seem to get in these discussions is that DDO has an active combat system. It's not auto attack 5 attacks vs 10 attacks. For many players who use auto attack, perhaps, but i don't play that game, auto attack is for complete noobs.

Anyways yea I might show you one day how a proper thf player does it, im doing shroud elite right now, think were full but ill put u on friends for next one. I'll let you come along but thats the best thing i can promise, i can't gaurentee what the clerics will do, they really like healing me =)

And no thanks, i don't and have never ever had another player unlock a difficulty for me, not even for low lvl quests. I prefer to earn my own way.

[Strykersz]

My barbarian is only level 5 at the moment, so I just got the 3rd attack, but what's the problem with the 4th and 5th attacks? I thought the BAB of the later attacks were usually better. Are the animations just too slow?

Also, how do you go about skipping those attacks in the sequence?

At 16, geared up, you only miss on a 1. So, while they have a better AB, other factors become more important. The transitions between animations in the middle of the chain are slowed way down, and the fifth attack is just ridiculous(you spin around in a circle holding your weapon straight out). Any swing taken while moving starts a new chain(and you can chain stationary attack 2 onto moving attack 1 by stopping after you start doing the moving attack animation).

[Snoggy]

At 16, geared up, you only miss on a 1. So, while they have a better AB, other factors become more important. The transitions between animations in the middle of the chain are slowed way down, and the fifth attack is just ridiculous(you spin around in a circle holding your weapon straight out). Any swing taken while moving starts a new chain(and you can chain stationary attack 2 onto moving attack 1 by stopping after you start doing the moving attack animation).

That's a lot of twitch based energy you're expending. Care to elaborate on maybe how much "extra" such an effort is going to net you? In some sort of meaningful measurement? I'm just very curious as to what results the effort produces since I've read a couple of times about how people do this and why people do this. I mean, I get that part. Now I want to know what people actually get out of it. If it's something like a small percent increase in effectiveness ... I think I'm too lazy a combatant to go through such rigorous attention to twitch.