Weigh in your vote: TwF vs. ThF.

[Daemonis]

Background: I previously level up and later deleted my 2-handed fighting (ThF) Barbarian to make room for other builds. I’m now hoping to re-roll up another Barbarian to round out my stable of characters that I play. It seems the way to go now for max DPS (for pre-Gianthold quests; most of the Orchard quests) and stat damaging/vorpaling (Gianthold/Vale) is two-weapon fighting (TwF).

My goals:
1) Rogue2/Barbarian14 split, for increased self-sufficiency (VERY important to me) and functional evasion. I know it’s a sacrifice. I’m willing and prepared to make that sacrifice. Not negotiable.
2) Barb crit rage II.
3) End up with 500+hp when raged.
4) Warforged. My preferred character race - - - I also have accumulated much RR WF gear.
5) Use my bloodstone for extra DPS/confirm crits.

I’m seeking your wisdom regarding the likely outcome, in terms of your expectations in likely end-game DPS/kill counts for 2 basic builds from the forums that I’ve subsequently modified/tailored to fit my goals. I don’t have the inclination to level both up. Please help me decide which of the following builds I’d be most satisfied with, from a melee competitive kill count perspective:

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Build 1, Oversized, two-weapon fighting evasion 32.WF Barbarian:
Base stats: S17 D17 C16 I8 W6 CH6
Endgame stats, raged, depending on endgame gear/tomes: S40-48+ D24 C34-42+ I8 W6 CH12.
Skills (with golden cartouche, + GH, +Rogue skill boostI for UMDboost): UMD ~29+, Intimidate ~27, Jump ~23, Balance ~19, OL ~35.
Feats, in order: Twf, PA, Oversized Twf, IC:Piercing, ITwf, GTwF.
HP: ~386base, ~458 raged, ~528+ double Madstone raged.

Note1, DPS: I won’t farm Litany of the Dead for two Deathnips. Out of the question. I will work to obtain the highest burster(s) heavy picks of maiming I can find to dual wield (+Bloodstone). I already have two Adoryn’ Malices (ady, greater construct bane) and 2 holy of greater undead bane light maces for portals or construct/undead smashing on my Ranger that I would swap over.

Note2: I also have some nice puncturing rapiers on my Ranger that I would swap over for end-game content that can be CON killed. My dual puncturing GTwf Ranger kills elite end-game mobs crazy fast. I also have various power V 1-handers.

Note3: I would basically plan on dual wielding fancy punctures that I already own on most end-game content that can be CON killed. Switch over to DPS for Red/purple names and crit immune mobs. Use Intimidate to draw/keep foes stationary next to me to maximize the number of hits I land without moving.

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Build 2, Two-handed fighting evasion 32.WF Barbarian:
Base stats: S17 D14 C16 I9 (+1tome at creation) = 10 W6 CH12
Endgame stats, raged, depending on endgame gear/tomes: S40-48+ D20 C34-42+ I10 W8 CH 18.
Skills (with golden cartouche, + GH, +Rogue skill boostI for UMDboost): UMD ~32+, Diplomacy ~40, Jump ~23, Balance ~17, OL ~33.
Feats, in order: Thf, PA, Stunning blow, IC:Slashing, IThf, GThF.
HP: ~386base, ~458 raged, ~528+ double Madstone raged.

Note1: I would likely take a few PA enhancements to increase DPS further. At end-game, I suspect DPS is still viable via Stunning blow feat followed by a few huge crits from an enraged+power attack(+bloodstone) heavy hitter. This will be the plan of action: Stun/trip+heavy hitting on all non Red/purple named mobs. Red/purple named get the standard enraged beat-down. Too much agro: hit diplomacy.

Note2: I would farm a Sword of Shadows – as my primary general purpose DPS weapon - until I can craft a Tier3Greensteel weapon (not sure which way I would go). I already have a golf bag full of greater bane great axes and 2-handed power V’s when the situation would warrant it.

Note3: I know how to boost attack speed & DPS via glancing blows via twitch hitting (i.e., only use 1st two attack sequences, move slightly, repeat).

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So please weigh in, based up the aforementioned builds/equipment I’ve put together, on which YOU think will be better in the competitive melee kill count department. They will be my builds, so player skill is equal for both.

Many thanks in advance.
Regards, -Daemonis.

[Hanam]

your UMD doesn't add up

-edit-
example build 2:
19 ranks UMD
3 golden cartouche
4 Greater heroism
4 charisma bonus
_________________
30 UMD

[Krazed]

ThF barbs outperform TwF barbs until end-game content, or near end-game content on elite, due to w/p and effects (vorpal, banishing, etc), both because TwF wield 2 weapons and because of their easier access to pierce. This is only possible with access to these weapons, however, which you seem to have. Therefore, purely for end-game strength of build, I would say TwF.

That being said, I prefer ThF barbs. I play a ThF barb and I can outkill most non-uber twinked TwFs, especially on non-elite content. On elite, or if the TwF has every toy in the book, they often outkill me, but it's relatively close.

[boldarblood]

Neither are bad options if you have pretty equivelant equipment. Currently end game content favors piercing by a bit, but its not a huge difference. And as anyone will tell you, that can change mod to mod. If you are going 2HF you should max your strength without a doubt, and if possible try to do so on your 2WF also. For the 2hf you definitely want ot max out your Barbarian Power Attack enhancements, and then if your still having no problem hitting can start to add the Warforge Power Attack enhancment. Both builds are viable at current end game content.

And I know you said it was not negotiable, but one thing to consider is you will almost be permanently raged from shrine to shrine. On my barb I don't run out, and I don't even have maximum # of rages. Rage is the bread/butter of any Barbarian and only time I EVER break my rage is to start a new one up. While raged you are no longer self sufficient, can not use any of your rogue skills. It would suck to break rage to have to open a lock or heal yourself. But I am sure you already thought that through.

[Daemonis]

Thanks for taking time to weigh in your perspectives, I appreciate it. Also, Hanam, the Build2~32UMD is accurate when boosted via Rogue Skill boost I. I updated the builds to clarify.

Regards, -D

[Kargon]

Kargon would probamally recommend the TwF build, as are very similimar to Kargon's... well... Kargon build.

Only difference are kargon went human for extrama feat and went with khopesh, and kargon use mostly vorpamals instead of wound/puncture when are faster than dps, though kargon does have some wounding of enfeebling sciminitars when only stat damage will do. basicamally means kargon have slightly more consistament dps for bosses, traded off for slightly slowermer killing of trash mobs. the warmaforge TwF build looks great for endgame content to kargon, except for that whole being a walkaming tinker toy thing .

[Grenfell]

ThF barbs outperform TwF barbs until end-game content, or near end-game content on elite, due to w/p and effects (vorpal, banishing, etc), both because TwF wield 2 weapons and because of their easier access to pierce. This is only possible with access to these weapons, however, which you seem to have. Therefore, purely for end-game strength of build, I would say TwF.

That being said, I prefer ThF barbs. I play a ThF barb and I can outkill most non-uber twinked TwFs, especially on non-elite content. On elite, or if the TwF has every toy in the book, they often outkill me, but it's relatively close.

This is, unfortunately for the THFers, incorrect.

Every TWF'ing barbarian is an excellent THF barbarian; the reverse is not true.

Take my barb, for example.

She has 42 Str, buffable to 46 with double Madstone. She has power attack.

If she picks up a Greataxe, she's pretty close to your THF barbarian. Granted, her glancing blows are not comparable to a THF barb, but then, the GTHF feat doesn't give you anything more than a bit more damage on glancing blows. Just how much of a difference do glancing blows make? Hard to say -- but the gap might be 10 pts per glancing blow (8pts vs. 18pts of damage). The base damage of the 42 Str Barb wielding a Greataxe with PA is unchanged. Indeed, that is identical.

The THF barb might have PA enhancements; so can I (I choose not to, but I can if I so desired).

The gap between no-THF feats to Greater THF is perhaps 10pts per glancing blow. There's a gap, but it's not enormous.

In contrast, the THF barb going TWF -- if he wants to go dual vorpal (for example) -- only gains 1 extra attack, and is at -4 to hit just from TWF penalties. The gap between no TWF feats at all to Greater TWF is from 6 attacks/rd to 10 attacks/rd. That's a HUGE gap.

Therefore, the only correct conclusion for the modern Barb builder is to start out with TWF in mind.

Levelling up, until you get Improved TWF (and Improved Crit, really) and a selection of weapons, the TWF barb can easily pick up the nearest +5 Greataxe and be at 90% of the THF-spec barbarian.

Upon getting GTWF and Improved Crits and Crit Rages... the TWF dominates the THF builds. If the gear isn't really special, then the TWF can pick up a +5 Greataxe and be at 90% of the THF-spec barbarian.

If there is a benefit to going THF at all, it is that they tend to have more HP and longer rages from higher Con. A THF Barb could go max Str, max Con -- the TWF barb must go at least 15 Dex (with a +2 tome) in order to quality for GTWF feat. The difference, in the case of my human TWF, is between 14 base Con vs. 18 base Con: +2 hp/lvl and 12 secs of Rage duration. Considering I break 500 hp with 14 base Con, and 3 minutes appears to be comfortably enough for my purposes, you may decide whether the diff between 14 Con and 18 Con is worth the sacrifice.

Q.E.D.

/gren

[Mad_Bombardier]

If she picks up a Greataxe, she's pretty close to your THF barbarian. Granted, her glancing blows are not comparable to a THF barb, but then, the GTHF feat doesn't give you anything more than a bit more damage on glancing blows. Just how much of a difference do glancing blows make? Hard to say -- but the gap might be 10 pts per glancing blow (8pts vs. 18pts of damage). The base damage of the 42 Str Barb wielding a Greataxe with PA is unchanged. Indeed, that is identical.

Very true. The damage difference for a Barb16 with and without ImpTHF is 9 points of damage on glancing blows. And of course, missing out on glancing blow on 4th attack with GrTHF.

[Krazed]

Just how much of a difference do glancing blows make? Hard to say -- but the gap might be 10 pts per glancing blow (8pts vs. 18pts of damage).

Actually, self buffed alone my barb's glancing blows hit in the high 20s, just for comparison.

[Grenfell]

Actually, self buffed alone my barb's glancing blows hit in the high 20s, just for comparison.

I'll see what kind of numbers I get self-buffed without any THF feats -- but I'm at work. If someone wants to login, grab a +5 GA and post the numbers, that'd be a useful comparison.

/gren

[Mad_Bombardier]

I'll see what kind of numbers I get self-buffed without any THF feats -- but I'm at work. If someone wants to login, grab a +5 GA and post the numbers, that'd be a useful comparison.

No need Gren. The numbers are static. ImpTHF adds +7 to glancing blow damage from BAB+11 to +15 and +9 to glancing blow damage at BAB+16.

[Grenfell]

No need Gren. The numbers are static. ImpTHF adds +7 to glancing blow damage from BAB+11 to +15 and +9 to glancing blow damage at BAB+16.

What about GTHF?

/gren

[Spisey]

TWF. Nasty with the right build.....


....and toys!

[Grenfell]

Okay, just tested with my barbarian. Self-buffed, seeing glancing blows in the 13-16 range with no THF feats at all.

So thinking GTHF grants perhaps 10-12 difference?

/gren

[Strykersz]

Okay, just tested with my barbarian. Self-buffed, seeing glancing blows in the 13-16 range with no THF feats at all.

So thinking GTHF grants perhaps 10-12 difference?

/gren

There's also a to hit bonus if I remember correctly.

[Nevthial]

2 weapons vs. 1 weapon ~ My wife had a two-handed warrior to start and shelved it for a two-weapon fighter. The reason was simple : 2 weapons means 2 or more different effects. With the proper weapons in each hand she kills sooooo much faster. Bam! You're paralyzed. Bam! You're cursed and enfeebled. Instead of Bam! I just aggroed everything with pitiful splash damage. By pitiful, I mean the creature isn't dead or stopped in it's tracks. ( IMHO 20-30 hp splash is pitiful and a waste.)
Her original two-handed fighter had great cleave and it was nice up until we hit 7th level + content. Then it was a liability.

[boldarblood]

Okay, just tested with my barbarian. Self-buffed, seeing glancing blows in the 13-16 range with no THF feats at all.

So thinking GTHF grants perhaps 10-12 difference?

/gren

From my experiences ~30 range with my Dwarf Barb. Has a noticeable increase in chance to hit, plus you also get 2 sets of glancing blows in full rotation. Also get glancing blows while moving/swinging.

[Tanka]

GTWF Barbs (and any other class) get the bonus attacks and only suffer a -2/-2 to hit. Considering a good Barb hits on a 2 when fully buffed up, that -2/-2 isn't going to mean jack to him unless he's facing tip-top end Elite content.

[Daemonis]

After cogitating more about it, I reached the same conclusion that Grenfell discussed above. That is, I’ve decided to go with Build 1. Rolled up “Jagannath” yesterday. See you folks in the game!

For character levels 1-11, I will plan on equipping my primary DPS weapon(s), especially Carnifex (It’s like having IC:Slashing and Barb Crit RageII as soon as character level 4) – but also other selected greaterbane greataxes. I will use my twitch skills to up the DPS further.

At character level 12+ (Levels 13 & 16 = Barb Crit RageI and II, respectively), especially on Elite quests, I’ll pull out the dual puncturing rapier sets and selected power V’s. I’ll still obviously plan on using my DPS 2-handed greaterbane/Carnifex greataxes, but only against trash mobs.

Thanks for taking the time to weigh in your opinion. Regards, -Daemonis.

[Mad_Bombardier]

What about GTHF?

GrTHF adds no damage, but rather adds another glancing blow on 4th attack.

So thinking GTHF grants perhaps 10-12 difference?

Nope, it's ImpTHF and just 7-9 damage difference (depending on BAB).