Clerics are on a slippery slope.........

[Scholar]

This thread was about coalescence chamber where banishers are the most useful weapon. You want to look at the shroud then? Go look on the AH and see how much people charge for +5 transmuting, holy/silver, holyburst/silver, holy/greater bane, and transmuting/greater bane.

Guaranteed one of those weapons is more than you'll spend on scrolls for numerous runs.

Well, I've bought two +4 holy/silver weapons right out of the vendor. Didn't really set me back much. A lot less costly then all the scrolls I have used. A lot less.

[ghale]

Well, I've bought two +4 holy/silver weapons right out of the vendor. Didn't really set me back much. A lot less costly then all the scrolls I have used. A lot less.

Ah yes, everyone has an anecdotal story of one time, somewhere, they did something.

I've grouped with clerics that have spent zero scrolls on elite quests and shroud raids. What does that say? See how useless your anecdotal experience is at making a point?

[Scholar]

Ah yes, everyone has an anecdotal story of one time, somewhere, they did something.

I've grouped with clerics that have spent zero scrolls on elite quests and shroud raids. What does that say? See how useless your anecdotal experience is at making a point?

Thanks, I knew you'd make that point. Only thing is that most of the counter arguements on all the various threads on this topic are filled with anecdotal experiences. Yours isn't really any different either. You like to spend large amounts for very specific weapons. I spent peanuts for those two weapons. I only have ONE melee shroud ready (I have two clerics as well). I don't need 20 holy silver weapons to be effective against the pit fiend. You just need one (or two if you dual wield). That's it. Plus, plat spent for supplies is lost. It's a consumable. The weapons are not. Apples and oranges arguement.

[QuantumFX]

Really, quit crying.

You first.

And while you're at it could you stop with the strawman arguments? You totally misrepresent the OP's argument.

The OP wants melee types in his examples to be outfitted for running vale quests. High crit range banishers rock in Coalescence Chamber on normal but you don't need them to rack up a decent melee kill count. Simple puncturing weapons can do the trick, as can cursespewers and anarchic weapons. You don't need a 20 million gold piece item to do well in there. In fact, you don't even need to visit the AH to get these items.

[Depravity]

By that same logic all players should be equally set for anything that could happen. If players can't spring for the pots/wands/scrolls to keep them selves alive clerics should not feel this sense of burden to keep them alive. Letting some one who can't tango with what they take die a few times is a good lesson.

QFT

I've only been playing since november, and my only highby is a wizard, so I can't speak for all the classes here. One of the problems I see is this assumption that clerics are there just to heal the party up/ pass out DVs. The clerics need to stop training people to expect that. If players realized they had to take some steps to defend themselves, instead of just screaming for heals, they'd take them. Tough love folks. It works.

I've been playing PnP since 2nd edition came out, and I can say that at it's core, DnD is really about resource management. HP, spell slots, loot, weapons, armor, all of it are resources to be used to an end. Efficient use of those resources is what marks a good player from someone obsessed with his/her kill count. My wiz has just shy of 1600 sp, and will drop 600 or more of that on extended buffs the moment he hits a quest. Keeping your party healthy is more effective use of sp than just blasting. Stoneskin is my little contribution to the clerics, as it's 160 hp they don't have to heal, per person. Blur cuts damage done by 20%, almost without exception. Crowd control follows the same deal - try dropping a glitterdust for a multi rogue party, then watch the mobs' hp drop in staggeringly big chunks. One glitterdust = many happy backstabs > scorching ray damage. Save the FoDs for the enemy casters, who rarely make their saves, and hit the fighting types with will saves that line them up for the melee types.

Coalescence chamber is long enough that I A) Buff, B) FoD trog shamans, and C) use my paralyzer crossbow. We manage to muddle through, and I don't run out of sp when that shaman is pulling us apart because we can't reach him. The cleric has an easier time because of A, and he gets to break out some of his fun spells. Wins all the way around. Just for the record - I have 4 out of the five vale quests on elite, and I PUG pretty much exclusively. I made my 100 favor with the twelve, and feel no further need there.

What I'm trying to say is that the excessive consumable use by some clerics is not a problem with the game mechanics, it's a problem with the play styles being used. Ever try dropping a high level shield of faith on people? They may not be carrying a +5 protection item. Fighter doesn't get the idea that running ahead and aggroing 6 groups of mobs is a bad idea? Retreat a little and let him die. When his favorite sword breaks due to multiple deaths, he may just have an epiphany. Caster keeps fireballing those mobs your bard just fascinated? No more spellsongs for him. The list goes on and on and on. DDO has an amazingly flexible system, allowing people to play how they like. Some of those styles are dead ends, and should be allowed to die, instead of being kept on cleric mediated life support.

[ghale]

Thanks, I knew you'd make that point. Only thing is that most of the counter arguements on all the various threads on this topic are filled with anecdotal experiences. Yours isn't really any different either. You like to spend large amounts for very specific weapons. I spent peanuts for those two weapons. I only have ONE melee shroud ready (I have two clerics as well). I don't need 20 holy silver weapons to be effective against the pit fiend. You just need one (or two if you dual wield). That's it. Plus, plat spent for supplies is lost. It's a consumable. The weapons are not. Apples and oranges arguement.

Oh good more assumptions time! Like you, I also look for the better deals and have spent relatively little on getting great weapons for the shroud. Kind of like there are many clerics who don't complain about having to use lots of scrolls (because they don't) to the few that keep making those complaints.

If scrolls are really that big of a deal don't use them.

[Burradin]

All Good players = easy run

All bad players = disaster

Mix of players = unknown

I find that those that complain about things such as this as those that complained running through water works. When you decide to play a certain class, you choose to accept the limitations and obligations of that class. When you play with a pug (or any group that is not static with players you know to be good), option 3 from above comes into play. If you are not happy with how it is going, work on ensuring you use option one or option four, which is get a new toon for a different class.

Those on Sarlona that know me know that I have a toon from every class and I play them all somewhat regularily. Only thing I don't have is a WF because I didn't like playing one personally. But my cleric easily handles healing them because she is built to heal. When I want to kill things, I play some other claas. I don't ask or expect others to give me heal scrolls, wands, mana pots, etc for my cleric any more than I expect mana pots for my wizzy or sorc. I also don't see clerics handing melee plat to repair with when they don't have to use any consumables because the melee killed everything. I build my toons to be as self sufficient as possible, because I like to know I will get healed, no matter which version of healer I get.

I want to touch on something else that was said above. It was mentioned that if the wizzy/sorc would buff then it would save the resources for the cleric. If everyone gets the right equipment or goes and gets the house buffs, is that not the same? In DDO, the arcane casters are very powerful in defeating foes and the fact that some players prefer to use their mana in this way does not make them wrong. My son loves to buff people on his wizzy and since he only plays occassionally, he runs out of mana with no pots and the latest craze for clerics to not carry dv and he gets killed. Maybe if he still had the mana he used to buff the melee to save the cleric a little effort, he would not die. But that is a play style he enjoys and that is what matters.

If you are not happy with what is happening with your toon, then you need to change and not expect everyone to change for you.
Is Turbine supposed to make everything so easy for the masses that the good payers leave from total boredom from a lack of challenges? I hope not, because only thing I have seen put out so far by Turbine that was not realitively easy by second to third run is Abbot and those obsessive good players are what keeps the game going.

Burr

[captain1z]

I see much of this conversation putting the responsibility of scroll purchases and other stuff on the cleric.
Thats just irresponsible thinking as a group. My fighter carries 100 heal scrolls and has no ability to use them, I will give them to clerics in small groups of 5 - 10 if myself or the group is becoming a healing burden. My cleric can not/ and will not purchase scrolls to heal the group. I run with 2-3 wands and whatever the group brings to the table.

Ive never been in the shroud raid as of yet, I hear its tough, I think steps can be taken by the fighters and the casters to reduce the amount of damage everyone takes. I cant understand why in a raid where everyone says it takes 100 heal scrolls to get thru the cleric is expected to provide them.

I propose that if you as a raid leader are going to accept 11 people into your group to run this raid, that you require everyone to purchase 5-10 heal scrolls and 1 cure serious wand. These items are to be given to the group leader before you begin the quest and the group leader is to divide them amongst the clerics once inside the quest.

My fighter buys heal scrolls to help keep my mana sponging butt alive, why cant everyone help provide for there own well-being.

[Burradin]

I propose that if you as a raid leader are going to accept 11 people into your group to run this raid, that you require everyone to purchase 5-10 heal scrolls and 1 cure serious wand. These items are to be given to the group leader before you begin the quest and the group leader is to divide them amongst the clerics once inside the quest.

Did the raid leader require that cleric to join, or for that matter, any quest which this thread started with. A lot of the shroud raids go with 3 clerics and often a bard, while a normal quest has 1 cleric. As several have said on previous post, proficient use of mana and smart play requires no extra resources. But even if they do, the rewards from the quest more than pay for the resources.

You could always decide to run an all cleric shroud so those tanks are not using up your resources. I mean, a recent sarlona shroud run was all rangers (I missed it but hope I can get in on the next one) and no clerics and seemed to be just fine. I somehow believe that an all cleric run if it was to succeed, would cost those clerics way more than what they spend for the tanks that are helping to make it thru so that all, clerics included get the end rewards, shards, crafted items, etc.

But if there is 11 clerics on sarlona up in arms about buying scrolls and so forth, I'll throw my cleric in and run with ya. BTW, I spend more on my wizzy during a shroud run than I every come close to doing on my cleric. Rather use a heal scroll any day that the mana pots I go thru on the wizzy.

Burr

[captain1z]

Did the raid leader require that cleric to join, or for that matter, any quest which this thread started with. A lot of the shroud raids go with 3 clerics and often a bard, while a normal quest has 1 cleric. As several have said on previous post, proficient use of mana and smart play requires no extra resources. But even if they do, the rewards from the quest more than pay for the resources.

You could always decide to run an all cleric shroud so those tanks are not using up your resources. I mean, a recent sarlona shroud run was all rangers (I missed it but hope I can get in on the next one) and no clerics and seemed to be just fine. I somehow believe that an all cleric run if it was to succeed, would cost those clerics way more than what they spend for the tanks that are helping to make it thru so that all, clerics included get the end rewards, shards, crafted items, etc.

But if there is 11 clerics on sarlona up in arms about buying scrolls and so forth, I'll throw my cleric in and run with ya. BTW, I spend more on my wizzy during a shroud run than I every come close to doing on my cleric. Rather use a heal scroll any day that the mana pots I go thru on the wizzy.

Burr

In response to you saying that a cleric would receive rewards that would more than pay for the resources spent I just wanna say this:

cleric 25k plat - (resources 100 heal scrolls) 20k plat = 5 k plat net
rogue 25k plat - (resources various pots) 2k plat = 23k plat net
fiighter 25k plat - (resources various pots & ammo) 6 k plat = 19k plat

the cost of supplies are not equal to healer type consumables; these are the most expensive consumables in the game and are used on others 90% of the time as oppossed to pots and ammo with are used by the buyer for himself mostly.

when u go into the shroud you go for crafting "weapons" (little benefit to clerics), getting xp (good for all) and looting.

Its not fair that each group pays what they pay and the healers walk away with less reward.

Ive stopped saying clerics at this point and I say healer because bards and others will spend similiar costs if they feel they are a healer build.

share the risk...share the expense....share the rewards = like a team

[Burradin]

In response to you saying that a cleric would receive rewards that would more than pay for the resources spent I just wanna say this:

cleric 25k plat - (resources 100 heal scrolls) 20k plat = 5 k plat net
rogue 25k plat - (resources various pots) 2k plat = 23k plat net
fiighter 25k plat - (resources various pots & ammo) 6 k plat = 19k plat

the cost of supplies are not equal to healer type consumables; these are the most expensive consumables in the game and are used on others 90% of the time as oppossed to pots and ammo with are used by the buyer for himself mostly.

when u go into the shroud you go for crafting "weapons" (little benefit to clerics), getting xp (good for all) and looting.

Its not fair that each group pays what they pay and the healers walk away with less reward.

Ive stopped saying clerics at this point and I say healer because bards and others will spend similiar costs if they feel they are a healer build.

share the risk...share the expense....share the rewards = like a team

Never said equal, I said more than pays for and your example even shows that. Plus, a decent Bard can get you a 100 heal scrolls for 14K. That same bard buys 100 cure serious pots for 6K. A fighter that is healing themselves with pots as healers heal as well go through 100 in a shroud run. You can add in other various pots, but they do not add up to as much as the cure. Then if the groups does part 4 and 5 as intended, you get to add the costs of repairs. And in part 5, a melee would be lucky to die no more than 3 times, which is a heck of a lot of damaged equipment to repair.

As far as your comment on crafting. Weapons only? Have you looked at the recipes? My first and only so far tier 3 item is for my Barbarian and it was a helm. Greater Acid Resistance, 1 hp regen per 30 secs, +10 more acid resist, stone skin twice a rest, heavy fort and +5 protection. I don't know about others, but this type of item actually will work for any of my toons reguardless of class. That same recipe will work on any of the equipment. For my wizzy, I have thought about an item with Electric lore +6%, Greater Fire lore +9%, and permenant 20% Blur, or I might change the lores out for HP.

Also, the heal scrolls are not the most expensive consumable, mana pots are much more expensive. On auction, for cheap ones, you are going to 6K plat, and lucky to get them at that. I looked other day and it was 20 for 1,700,000 gold or 170,000 plat which is 8.5K each. So using the numbers earlier, 50 Heal scrolls for 8K plat, not using a good haggle bard vs average 3 mana pots for a full shroud (think this is conservative) for an arcane at 18-25.5K. Maybe the Wizzy's and Sorcs need to start asking for more donations and charge for those dancing balls and haste.

[esoitl]

Despite the fact that so many clerics seem to need to go back to boot camp, I'd like to believe that learning can still occur.

Tip #1 -
Coal Chamber has a shrine conveniently located at the front door.
If you are capped and don't care about XP, use the shrine outside the quest.
If you are not capped, exit the dungeon and re-enter the quest on NORMAL.
If you are not capped and insist on doing ELITE then maybe you'll realize that a 20% xp penalty for re-entering the dungeon is much cheaper than a stack of heal scrolls.

And yeah, I do have a capped cleric and I've PUG'd every quest in the vale.

.

well said
i've slightly shied away from Vale quests on more than norm as the runs weren't terribly smooth(then again they just opened and most people did'nt know them well enough)

now that i'm capped i drop into some of these on elite
most i see doable with the shrines provided without too much in the way of consumables spent or recalling - Coalesence Chamber is a bit of an exception as it can take much longer than needed due to falling

by no means is this a typical run but my last elite CC run lasted close to 2.5 hours as there was multiple instances of people falling
ANY lvl 18 quest that takes 2.5 with 1 shrine is going to require some resources or recalling and it was not just me as the cleric that recalled


that added a lot to the length of the quest but had we have not fallen and extended the duration drastically it wouldn't have been that dificult or expensive
i don't even find it that dificult but the fact remains it's long and can become much longer when people fall and have to run around half the dungeon to get back

[FluffyCalico]

In response to you saying that a cleric would receive rewards that would more than pay for the resources spent I just wanna say this:

cleric 25k plat - (resources 100 heal scrolls) 20k plat = 5 k plat net
rogue 25k plat - (resources various pots) 2k plat = 23k plat net
fiighter 25k plat - (resources various pots & ammo) 6 k plat = 19k plat

the cost of supplies are not equal to healer type consumables; these are the most expensive consumables in the game and are used on others 90% of the time as oppossed to pots and ammo with are used by the buyer for himself mostly.

when u go into the shroud you go for crafting "weapons" (little benefit to clerics), getting xp (good for all) and looting.

Its not fair that each group pays what they pay and the healers walk away with less reward.

Ive stopped saying clerics at this point and I say healer because bards and others will spend similiar costs if they feel they are a healer build.

share the risk...share the expense....share the rewards = like a team

Just so I understand, crafting an item to give you 300SP and +6 to haggle making the scrolls cheaper is not useful to cleric?
Neither is +9 to Wis, CON, CHA, etc??

[ThrasherGT]

Just a comment:

I have read each and every post in this thread, and exactly ONE has discussed the original point of My OP.

Have a Great Day, Y'all

[studentx]

How peeved off are you when a fighter comes into the quest with the wrong weapon?
How peeved off are you when a caster comes into the quest with the wrong spells?

The difference is ... that a cleric is expected to come preparred ... which means he/she should ... if they are worth anything ... be fully stocked with the everything they need to keep the party alive ...

Now that is the end of the story ... because if they don't the party will be history.

The materials the cleric needs costs ... spells and weps ... meh ... nothing compared to what a cleric has to spend on most missions.

UM, no. You should only be carry 40 heal scrolls and maybe some cure mass mod scrolls for vale quests. If your group needs more than that, they are having other problems.

[nbhs275]

In response to you saying that a cleric would receive rewards that would more than pay for the resources spent I just wanna say this:

cleric 25k plat - (resources 100 heal scrolls) 20k plat = 5 k plat net
rogue 25k plat - (resources various pots) 2k plat = 23k plat net
fiighter 25k plat - (resources various pots & ammo) 6 k plat = 19k plat

the cost of supplies are not equal to healer type consumables; these are the most expensive consumables in the game and are used on others 90% of the time as oppossed to pots and ammo with are used by the buyer for himself mostly.

when u go into the shroud you go for crafting "weapons" (little benefit to clerics), getting xp (good for all) and looting.

Its not fair that each group pays what they pay and the healers walk away with less reward.

Ive stopped saying clerics at this point and I say healer because bards and others will spend similiar costs if they feel they are a healer build.

share the risk...share the expense....share the rewards = like a team

Ok, let me knock some holes in your arguement. A cleric shouldnt run through 100 heal scrolls. Like anyone who has ever played a good cleric will tell you, part 1-3 is free. 4-5 will take MAYBE 30-40 scrolls. And 100 heal scrolls is not 20k plat, more like 14k, The same cost as 2 stacks of 100 CSW pots. Which for me last the same amount of time on my tanks as my heal scrolls(maybe even shorter then the heal scrolls)

So right there the tanks and clerics are going to be in the hole for about the same on resources, but a frontline fighters is going to have more weapons and armors then the average clerics, and be getting hit more. So the fighters repair bill is going to be larger, around 1k plat to the clerics 2k gold. Then the fighter should be carrying poison pots, fire pro pots, haste pots, restore pots, rage pots, and a few other cures. All in all, a good fighter uses up just as many resourses through a shroud run as a cleric.

[Elsbet]

I don't think resources are out of whack at all. I pug more than I run in all-guild groups and with the possible exception of Devils on elite, I very,very rarely burn a scroll. I don't generally use mana pots. I was told that completing the Shroud required a minimum of 400 heal scrolls per cleric. I've yet to use more than 30 in all five parts and I've only ever pugged that raid.

You get lucky or you don't on groups. You get bad groups and good groups. The Shroud pug I did today, I never ran out of mana, never burned a scroll and because of a lucky crit, I was the only death. A pug I did yesterday didn't make it past part 2.

[Delacroix21]

To be honest these mana issues have far more to deal with AC then anything. The problem being high raid content seems to be tuned towards powergamer builds and the kind of AC those characters have, which is not attainable even with the best gear by non-munkin builds.


To compensate, the average player now states= "forget AC, just get lots of HP"
Which leads to massive healing needed, as they are hit consistantly, but at least have the HP to take it.


I think the greater issue to be looked at is reducing those mobs +hit bonus so AC can go back to having a meaning. I mean really, if mobs to hit keeps increasing to level 20, not even powergamers will have enough AC!

[esoitl]

Just a comment:

I have read each and every post in this thread, and exactly ONE has discussed the original point of My OP.

Have a Great Day, Y'all

i haven't read all of them but a few posts above i have stated that they should all be easily completed without resources on norm
now that they have been out for a while, hard isn't a challenge in some areas

Coalesence Chamber is definately doable if you keep the total time down by not falling with out a lot of resource sink and that is the worst one IMO

last Devils run on hard i had went super smooth and i used only the one shrine and nothing more


so, to your original point - no the Vale isn't too difficult to complete on hard and elite in most cases without sinking huge resources, nor should it
hell the Shroud isn't a huge resource sink until part 4 and only then if you have a melee based party with lower DPS
haven't run it with a ranged part ybut from accounts it makes life a lot easier, so there you have it

no the content isn;t hard and no, we don't need cleric enhancements to fix what you percieve to be a problem when there really isn't one



hasn';t the same thing happened in the past with Barbs, Rangers, Paladins and Rogues somewhat??
people ***** and moan and then expect the devs to line something up for them

the reason why the content is getting released at a crazy level is they know that after a few months when tactics are established they will become much easier to do and therefore don;t want to make elite a joke
besides that the whiners have unfortunately gotten their way and some nutty enhances have been put into the game making the need for harder and more challenging monsters


THERE - clerics are not in trouble and run the content a bit more and you will see..... it isn't too difficult, it's not broken, and clerics are not underpowered and do not need enhances o make them viable
what could you suggest to put in place that won't totally skew the power balance even further??
my cleric can do everything i want and even more sometimes.... couldn't imagine an enhancement they could add that would help the existing abilities and not be overpowered

[Gunga]

Just a comment:

I have read each and every post in this thread, and exactly ONE has discussed the original point of My OP.

Have a Great Day, Y'all

Might want to rethink the op than, huh.