Acrobat II and Q-staves

[Invalid_86]

RR - I agree that performing tumbling (ukemi) with bo/jo staff is more difficult than with, say Arnis/Escrima sticks, or any of the small blades/swords, but I am sure as a martial artist you have seen those who have specialized in the staff forms who do some pretty awesome feats. I am also sure you have heard how staff wielders used to defeat sword weilders regularly. A six foot staff should allow a trained person to increase his jump distance and heigth, and allow a small bonus to balance.

Just so you know I have studied some Judo and Ju Jitsu which I am sure you know at least teaches the basics of how to take a fall and regain your feet quickly, and to lessen a blow by using basic tumbling techniques. And Ju Jitsu does have some staff techniques.

I think that is the thinking here, and I somewhat agree. This PrC should indicate specialized and focused training, and one of the bonuses should be able to use a staff in an unusual way. I have always felt that DnD limited the way a person engages in combat by the weapon they use instead of the form they learned. Many of the medium weapons can be used in form that stresses agility and quickness rather than strength. The staff falls into that category, and I am much more familiar with those techniques and feel they should apply for this PrC.

I just got back from my dojo and, after a few odd looks and a "I magic missile the darkness!" joke I was able to try out a staff as it relates to an acrobat's skills. If you are curious I was coming from primarily a aikido/ninjutsu background but my colleagues include black belts in tae kwon do, karate, and jujutsu.

Luckily we had some spare jo's that were on the chopping block (excuse the pun) to be cut down into hanbos (a weapon similar to a cane) so if we messed up an end it didn't matter.

First off a staff is an excellent weapon! Let there be no doubt about this. It's amazing too how many principles in unarmed combat translate directly into armed combat, and vice versa.

Secondly a staff is useless for helping in tumbling. If anything it's in the way. A big strike here.

Next, jumping. After remarks of "some people watch too much anime" we gave it a try. A big note- you cannot vault with a staff. At all. It is too short and, unlike a vaulting pole, it does not bend. Now there are instances of long jumpers carrying weights in their hands that- when strategically swung out- can extend your jump a bit. A staff on the other hand is just too light. Oh well, strike two.

Finally, balance. Here again in a tightrope walking you may be able to talk your DM into giving you a +1 circumstance bonus if they are in a good mood, but in trying on the edgings of the mats they just lacked enough weight and length to be a useful counterbalance.

But wait! They did help in one respect. Much like a walking stick they can they can occasionally lend a bit of support to a weak side when off balance. So they did have that going for them. Sadly in the SUper Mario world of DDO the balance skill doesn nothing for keeping you from falling, only helping when getting up after a fall. So the bright spot in all of this doesn't apply in DDO, not to mention that this isn't a staff only quality- any long stick like weapon can do something similar in the right circumstances.

Anyways those were our impressions. Not scientific of course but it was better than nothing.

[Gornin]

I understand your point RR, and agreed before that it is very difficult to perform many stunts with the staff in hand. But I think we can both agree that it is not impossible, and for some one who focuses on the staff to combine it with acrobatics, and uses it as the focal point of their manouvres, would be able to increase jumping distance some,or flip over a 6' barrier or opponent, or attack with dizzying routines that strike quickly and often.

My point being, that this PrC (the way it is written for DDO ) is focused on the staff that combines a martial artist with an acrobat, and I think that a benefit of this should be the ability to use your dex modifier to attack. I don't think that is an unreasonable advantage to a character that focuses on a weapon or combat style.

Do you think that it is an unreasonable bonus, putting the rules aside for a moment? Most PrC's do break the rules somewhat, and keeping the staff as a STR attack bonus would seriouly hinder this PrC IMO, taking away the rogues ( usually ) biggest advantage, their quickness and agility.


Guess we could call them pole dancers :P

[Invalid_86]

Oh no doubt the off hand attacks of a staff should be finessable when it it wielded as a dual weapon. The rules specifically say that the main attacks counts as a one handed weapon and the off hands are a light weapon when being used this way.

The trick is getting the weapon coded right. You have to have the option of either using it as a regular weapon or a dual weapon, you have to have seperate enchantments for each end, and if you are wielding the staff two handed which enchanted end you want to use to strike with. Those are the rules for a staff, but none of that is in DDO.

True, it doesn't matter much now as extremely few warriors bother using as staff, and most wizards take advantage of the faulty rods rules to just dual wield rods. But if you are going to make it central to a class you had better bone up on the rules!

Thus part of the "why a staff?" mystery. But who knows, maybe tomorrow's update will include New Updates For Staffs!

And updates for other dual weapons too, as if you are adding one you might as well add them all! Medievel Darth Maul builds rejoice!

[Gornin]

LOL. Yeah I understand your intent about the double ends.

I think they can code it like the shining crescents(?) from the Titan, and apply it to a PrC instead of a particular wep. That way it is the same bonus regardless of which end hits. At least I think that may be the intent if they allow it. It may be harder than I think, as I have little software experience, but I think it would be doable.

[KristovK]

Oh no doubt the off hand attacks of a staff should be finessable when it it wielded as a dual weapon. The rules specifically say that the main attacks counts as a one handed weapon and the off hands are a light weapon when being used this way.

The trick is getting the weapon coded right. You have to have the option of either using it as a regular weapon or a dual weapon, you have to have seperate enchantments for each end, and if you are wielding the staff two handed which enchanted end you want to use to strike with. Those are the rules for a staff, but none of that is in DDO.

True, it doesn't matter much now as extremely few warriors bother using as staff, and most wizards take advantage of the faulty rods rules to just dual wield rods. But if you are going to make it central to a class you had better bone up on the rules!

Thus part of the "why a staff?" mystery. But who knows, maybe tomorrow's update will include New Updates For Staffs!

And updates for other dual weapons too, as if you are adding one you might as well add them all! Medievel Darth Maul builds rejoice!

Actually the PnP rules give a 50% chance that both ends of a dual weapon are the exact same when randomly determined, and if you make one or have it made, both ends ARE the same, costs 2x the cost due to that. So no reason to change anything, dual weapon would be +whatever at each end, as the Shining Cresent is already. And the actual dual weapon rules in PnP don't allow you to use finesse with them, you simply get the two weapon fighting benefit of one end being normal and the other end being a light weapon when used as a dual weapon, meaning -4/-2 if you have training as opposed to -4/-4 if you have training.

I personally wouldn't try to vault anything using a quarterstaff, it's a stiff weapon with little if any bend, and that's a requirement of vaulting, the pole bends to give you extra delta v from the stored energy released as the weapon straightens out as you approach the release point. And I can tumble with a quarterstaff, or a greatsword or a spear and even with a kite shield on my left arm and a weapon in my right hand, but I trained specifically for that and it was rather hysterical at first...more then a few black eyes and bruised ribs and even a concussion or three before I actually got good at it It's quite possible though, just takes training and practice. And I wouldn't use a quarterstaff for balance either, too short to act as a reliable counterbalance. As RR pointed out, the UA T-A had to use a pole at least 4 feet taller then the user to vault or balance with. Didn't take anything special to learn how to use the staff though, it's a gimme when you take the class..no prof's in 1st ed, classes got to use specific weapons and racials could add to those, but that's all you were trained to use otherwise. Thief didn't have quarterstaff in their list, T-A did.

[Invalid_86]

Actually the PnP rules give a 50% chance that both ends of a dual weapon are the exact same when randomly determined, and if you make one or have it made, both ends ARE the same, costs 2x the cost due to that. So no reason to change anything, dual weapon would be +whatever at each end, as the Shining Cresent is already.

That's part true for randomly generated staffs. There is a 50% chance that both ends are the same, and a 50% chance that the off end is 1 less then the main end. There is no particular reason why you couldn't just make a staff with two completely different ends, you just won't randomly roll one up on the fly.

And the actual dual weapon rules in PnP don't allow you to use finesse with them, you simply get the two weapon fighting benefit of one end being normal and the other end being a light weapon when used as a dual weapon, meaning -4/-2 if you have training as opposed to -4/-4 if you have training.

Shhhhh! (looks around suspiciously)...I was trying to give people an out for why a staff could get a benefit from weapon finesse. Just play it cool, man! (smiles and waves!)

I personally wouldn't try to vault anything using a quarterstaff, it's a stiff weapon with little if any bend, and that's a requirement of vaulting, the pole bends to give you extra delta v from the stored energy released as the weapon straightens out as you approach the release point. And I can tumble with a quarterstaff, or a greatsword or a spear and even with a kite shield on my left arm and a weapon in my right hand, but I trained specifically for that and it was rather hysterical at first...more then a few black eyes and bruised ribs and even a concussion or three before I actually got good at it It's quite possible though, just takes training and practice. And I wouldn't use a quarterstaff for balance either, too short to act as a reliable counterbalance. As RR pointed out, the UA T-A had to use a pole at least 4 feet taller then the user to vault or balance with. Didn't take anything special to learn how to use the staff though, it's a gimme when you take the class..no prof's in 1st ed, classes got to use specific weapons and racials could add to those, but that's all you were trained to use otherwise. Thief didn't have quarterstaff in their list, T-A did.

It sounds like you train in more of a Western style as opposed to Gornin and myself's Eastern styles. SCA?

Have you seen any really good staff users?

I still remember back when I was first learning ukemi- basic tumbling. It was the day after I had a flu shot, and man by the end of the day my shoulder was just trashed! I was so sore the next day.

[DNDJESS]

The 3.5 rules are like the pirates' code - they're more like guidelines than actual rules. Just because there's nothing in the 3.5 rules about staffs being finessable doesn't mean that DDO shouldn't do it if it is an improvement to the game. After all, I don't believe there's anything in the rules that specifically states that a staff can't be finessed, is there?

Now, about the way you guys are suggesting that Qstaffs be used - you are still left with a weapon that is vastly inferior to dual weilding light maces and clubs. For one thing, you'd have to actually find a Qstaff that has 2 valuable, useful effects on it, or you're left with a weapon that's only useful on 1/2 of your swings. And with all the possible combinations of effects that you can have on a staff, you'd have a very slim chance of looting a staff with 2 'useful' ends, and a great chance of watering down the loot tables with more unusable vendor fodder.

Second, you wouldn't have the versatility that you would when using light maces or clubs. You wouldn't be able to keep your primary hand weapon the same, and switch just your secondary hand to either a different weapon or a shield when needed. That would be a HUGE drawback.

[Invalid_86]

The 3.5 rules are like the pirates' code - they're more like guidelines than actual rules. Just because there's nothing in the 3.5 rules about staffs being finessable doesn't mean that DDO shouldn't do it if it is an improvement to the game. After all, I don't believe there's anything in the rules that specifically states that a staff can't be finessed, is there?

If being used as a two handed weapon it can't by default as it is not a light weapon, and unlike spiked chains the rules don't specifically say that you can do so. That's part of the reason why spiked chains are cheesariffic!

Now, about the way you guys are suggesting that Qstaffs be used - you are still left with a weapon that is vastly inferior to dual weilding light maces and clubs. For one thing, you'd have to actually find a Qstaff that has 2 valuable, useful effects on it, or you're left with a weapon that's only useful on 1/2 of your swings. And with all the possible combinations of effects that you can have on a staff, you'd have a very slim chance of looting a staff with 2 'useful' ends, and a great chance of watering down the loot tables with more unusable vendor fodder.

Second, you wouldn't have the versatility that you would when using light maces or clubs. You wouldn't be able to keep your primary hand weapon the same, and switch just your secondary hand to either a different weapon or a shield when needed. That would be a HUGE drawback.

Now my friend you are beginning to understand why I was questioning why even have a quarterstaff as a favored weapon for any fighting class, let alone an acrobat. In DnD it isn't a very spectacular weapon, useful but not uber, and in DDO it just isn't implemented correctly.

We can both scratch our heads at this curious state of events!

[DNDJESS]

If being used as a two handed weapon it can't by default as it is not a light weapon, and unlike spiked chains the rules don't specifically say that you can do so. That's part of the reason why spiked chains are cheesariffic!

Now my friend you are beginning to understand why I was questioning why even have a quarterstaff as a favored weapon for any fighting class, let alone an acrobat. In DnD it isn't a very spectacular weapon, useful but not uber, and in DDO it just isn't implemented correctly.

We can both scratch our heads at this curious state of events!

...and that is why we, as players, are brainstorming to think of better ways to fix the staff. The original rules weren't good. The current rules aren't good. And removing them from the game is pretty unlikely. But when we have people arguing against change for no other reason than 'it differs from the 3.5 rules' or 'it wouldn't work like that in real-life', it just makes it harder for the Devs to take our suggestions seriously.

[Invalid_86]

...and that is why we, as players, are brainstorming to think of better ways to fix the staff. The original rules weren't good. The current rules aren't good. And removing them from the game is pretty unlikely. But when we have people arguing against change for no other reason than 'it differs from the 3.5 rules' or 'it wouldn't work like that in real-life', it just makes it harder for the Devs to take our suggestions seriously.

There is nothing wrong with the rules for a quarterstaff in 3.5. The problem seems to stem from forcing a square peg into a round hole.

[DNDJESS]

There is nothing wrong with the rules for a quarterstaff in 3.5. The problem seems to stem from forcing a square peg into a round hole.

There is a difference between 'nothing wrong' and 'there is a better way'. Personally I'd rather not see the developers waste their programmers' time turning a useless weapon into a barely useful weapon. I think they can do better. And apparently they think we can do better as well. Otherwise these wouldn't be the 'Development' forums - they'd be the 'How Can We Make DDO More Like D&D 3.5' forums.

[Invalid_86]

There is a difference between 'nothing wrong' and 'there is a better way'. Personally I'd rather not see the developers waste their programmers' time turning a useless weapon into a barely useful weapon. I think they can do better. And apparently they think we can do better as well. Otherwise these wouldn't be the 'Development' forums - they'd be the 'How Can We Make DDO More Like D&D 3.5' forums.

How about just fixing what doesn't work before fiddling with anything else?

Right now it's spending time trying to give a weapon bonus to a class that doesn't get a bonus with that weapon- and opening a can of worms with it.

Square peg, round hole.

[Angelus_dead]

There is nothing wrong with the rules for a quarterstaff in 3.5.

No, in fact there are things wrong with the D&D 3.5 weapon rules. The non-finessability of the quarterstaff is one of the problems, but there are many others.

[Invalid_86]

No, in fact there are things wrong with the D&D 3.5 weapon rules. The non-finessability of the quarterstaff is one of the problems, but there are many others.

Even if a staff is completely finessable that still doesn't explain why an acrobat should even get a combat bonus with it.

A speed bonus, it might be added, that even a fighter with greater weapon specialization doesn't get.

[Gornin]

I think we are on the same page here, just different areas.

Why the T-A gets a bonus with staff that fighters can't get? It is a PrC for rogues that most fighters couldn't qualify for, since it takes advantage of a rogues usual advantage if high agility and quickness.

I think we just stay away from the different bonuses for each end and give the same bonus for each end. This keeps the coding nightmare less, keeps the same number of attacks for the TWF, with the disadvantage of not having the ability to switch out just one wep for certain encounters and losing the bonus for doing so. I think that is balanced.

[DNDJESS]

Even if a staff is completely finessable that still doesn't explain why an acrobat should even get a combat bonus with it.

Because unlike D&D, DDO is completely combat-based. If you think logically about it, what benefits would come from an enhancement called 'Acrobat'? The only ones that logically make sense would be jump, tumble, and balance. And who would waste their time on an enhancement that only gave those benefits? I sure wouldn't, would you? So they added a combat bonus out of necessity to make the enhancement line desirable to more than 1 or 2 people.

[KristovK]

RR, my training is actually more eastern then western originally, Wu Tang, Judo, and Jujitsu, with a smattering of various other arts taught by my teacher whenever he felt it would add to the student's abilities(he was heavy on the self control/mental and soft forms). I learned fencing and more western style melee weapon arts in high school, and started doing SCA and other re-creation style western martial/melee arts in high school/college and after. My eastern arts training helped me a lot in learning how to tumble with weapons/armor on, as it's not actually something you normally do in the western styles..if you hit the ground, you are usually in deep trouble, but I was used to the more flowing and movement oriented styles of combat and hated just STANDING there and trading blows with a sword/axe/flail/whatever, trying to get around a shield...bugger that, I would tumble through a shield wall, dive over it, shoulder roll over it, worked quite effectively AND tumbling around on the ground doing rolls, cartwheels and front/backflips made my armored ass hard to hit I had gymastics training as well as the martial arts, so that really helped a lot, ONCE I got around the whole weapons in my hands, armor on my body problems. Full plate..forget it, half plate or lighter armors, very easy to tumble in, so I only wore half at most..knee cops were the biggest problem, they'd dig into the dirt and get stuck sometimes, causing me to veer off course or stop suddenly, or rip right off totally and force me to stop fighting(do NOT want to take a bastard sword in SCA to an unprotected knee!). Light armor/no armor with weapons only..tumbling is easy, staff is real easy to use in that case as you can do a number of things with it while tumbling, including swinging it at ground level as you roll and trip people, and so on.

Sadly, PnP rules never allowed finesse with a staff and I've never understood that and have always had/been a DM who made it a house rule, as that IS how you often use a staff of any type.

And the rules for double ended weapons in PnP are rather...messy...for what the different ends are magically. Any weapon who's full stats are given in the books have them apply to both ends unless they state otherwise, which they usually don't unless it's like the gnome h/h or dwarven urgrush, those actually have different weapon types on each end. Otherwise, if you find a +2 double bladed sword, it's +2 on both ends and so on. Of course, making them yourself, you CAN choose what's on each end, never seen a DM who didn't allow that, although the rules don't actually say you can, they say the cost is simply 2x because each end gets the same enchantment. And I've never personally had a DM just randomly roll up stuff except for wandering monsters, magic is always very tightly controlled so everything magical is pre-made by the DM and double ended weapons are the same at both ends UNLESS it's something special. DM once gave a guy in the party a double orc axe with +2 Flaming and +2 Frost ends, and he was talking about having a vorpal/smiting weapon for him once we hit 18th+ levels.

[Questing_Healer]

I, for one, was intrigued by the new thief-acrobat enhancement set. I completely agree that to make this skill useful, especially to, say, halfling rogues, they would need to make the quarterstaff a 'finesse' weapon.

In fact, I'm holding off on making one despite how much I love the concept of a thief-acrobat with a staff just to see if this ever gets implemented. I don't post often here, but this is something important to me.

So /signed.

-qh

[Aeneas]

This is a pointless discussion...clearly the purpose of all of this is to find a replacement for Nat Gann.

Might as well call way of the thief-acrobat II "Stormreach's next top Nat Gann!"

[Invalid_86]

Light armor/no armor with weapons only..tumbling is easy, staff is real easy to use in that case as you can do a number of things with it while tumbling, including swinging it at ground level as you roll and trip people, and so on.

Just to play devil's advocate there are alot of weapons that an acrobat could also use while doing a low tumbling attack. Cut the femoral artery with a dagger, slice the Achilles tendon with a short sword, smash the kneecap with a light mace, cut off the foot with a sickle....and that's just the basic finessable weapons that all rogues have access to.

I've never tried SCA fighting before. When I lived out East I had friends that were involved in it and I heard the stories, but never made it out myself. If I had the opportunity I'd love to spend a weekend learning from a true classical duellist, maybe in a seminar or the like.

All I can say is if you can tumble with a shield strapped to one arm and a weapon in the other hand then your kung fu is much stronger than mine! (laughs!)