Weekly Development Activities 3/31/2008

[Cowdenicus]

Clerics are vying with Sorcerers for the most powerful class in the game at present.

With such obvious success because of the heavy prevalence of clerics on all the servers. I mean every day I log in and see all these clerics standing around with nothing to do waiting for enough melee classes to fill groups.

I hear on the forums all the time about melee classes (especially paladins) having to go anonymous so they dont get spam telled to join the groups in the LFM's, those pesky clerics.

Seriously though..... no. Versatile, maybe, powerful no.

[Cowdenicus]

Wow, I mean, wow.

I'm speechless.

I have to sit here a minute and take this in, b/c that's out there. Paladins more powerful? We're talking about DDO here.

I think I have a pretty good paladin. I invite you to my server as an observer, and I'll jump on my paladin, and we'll get a decent cleric to join us. Who do you think will dominate any quest we go in?

It's not even close. The power gap is astronomical b/w the 2. I'm amazed that anyone can sit here and try to argue otherwise. There are few things that are certain, but this is one of them. Paladins don't approach a cleric's power.

Sure they do. Paladins are extreemly strong, best saves in game, immunities galore, LOH, smites, Pallies are very strong, just more defensive oriented. Pallies have their flaws (primarily agro generation) but they are strong.

[Mhykke]

Sure they do. Paladins are extreemly strong, best saves in game, immunities galore, LOH, smites, Pallies are very strong, just more defensive oriented. Pallies have their flaws (primarily agro generation) but they are strong.

It's not as though clerics' saves are all that bad. Sure, reflex isn't great, but the fact they have protection spells help any elemental damage coming their way on a failed reflex save, coupled w/ the fact they can instakill a caster before he actually casts those spells, meh, not a huge factor.

LOH? LOH???? That's your argument? A 4 times (at max) ability per rest for about 200 or so hit points a pop, vs. clerics ability to self heal? I mean, really?

Smites? Yeah, I'd much rather smite something 12 times per rest (max) for a couple hundred a hit (if I'm lucky and crit) than walk it through a blade barrier for 300+ hit points a hit on a non crit.

You do realize that clerics solo quests much, much more than paladins right? Is that b/c the paladin is "so strong"?

Your logic is simply backward. On the one hand you say that there's sooo many groups looking for clerics, but then you say that's b/c they're so weak. And I guess the flipside to that is nobody looks for paladins b/c they're sooo strong right? Come on.

Honestly, how am I even sitting here discussing this point. There is no argument. Clerics are in a different stratosphere than paladins. You cannot seriously make that argument.

With such obvious success because of the heavy prevalence of clerics on all the servers. I mean every day I log in and see all these clerics standing around with nothing to do waiting for enough melee classes to fill groups.

I hear on the forums all the time about melee classes (especially paladins) having to go anonymous so they dont get spam telled to join the groups in the LFM's, those pesky clerics.

Seriously though..... no. Versatile, maybe, powerful no.

Again, the # of people playing a class does not equal its power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's hard to play a cleric and have fun. It's not an easy class. That's why a lot of people don't play it. Not because of the power! Do you think that if somehow, magically, the devs made it so clerics didn't have to heal anyone else, that people wouldn't be playing clerics? That people would think they're too weak to play? OF COURSE NOT!!!! There'd be a huge number of people blade barriering, crowd controlling, meleeing, and instakilling their way through dungeons on clerics. It's HARD to do all that AND heal people. So people don't do it!

It's flawed logic to think that # of people playing a class equals a class's power.

[MysticTheurge]

With such obvious success because of the heavy prevalence of clerics on all the servers. I mean every day I log in and see all these clerics standing around with nothing to do waiting for enough melee classes to fill groups.

You've said this before, multiple times, and I'm not really sure how you think it supports your argument.

A) There are other reasons that people either don't like playing a cleric (often because they fail to understand how powerful they become).

B) There are other reasons that you don't see clerics waiting around (usually because clerics are anonymous because people blind invite them, which has nothing to do with how strong the class is and/or they only group with guildies because of the widespread inability to understand that a cleric can do way more than just heal).

C) There are other reasons clerics don't wait around. My cleric doesn't usually wait for other people to do stuff. If there isn't a group I want to join to do something, I'm off soloing stuff.

I hear on the forums all the time about melee classes (especially paladins) having to go anonymous so they dont get spam telled to join the groups in the LFM's, those pesky clerics.

Again, what does this have to do with anything?

People blind invite clerics because they think they "need" one. Because they think that clerics should be healing them and they don't do well without one. In fact, one of the cleric's main advantages in DDO is that they never have to worry about that. They don't have to devote resources to UMD to be able to heal scroll themselves, or use a highly limited resource like LoH. They have immense access to self-healing that's only matched by Warforged wizards and sorcerers.

But really, what does that fact that people want clerics in their groups have to do with whether or not clerics are a powerful class.

If anything, it should point towards clerics being powerful, not the other way round.

Versatile, maybe, powerful no.

Immense DPS output: Blade Barrier
Insta-killing: Banishment, Dismissal, Destruction
Crowd Control: Cometfall (with damage included!), Greater Command, Hold Person
Defense: Plenty of buffs, in fact the only ones that are lacking are DR buffs (a la stoneskin). Blur would be nice too, but can be replicated (if you care to) with Obscuring Mist.
Healing: Pretty obvious

What other "power" do you want? Clerics are versatile and powerful.

[Cowdenicus]

You've said this before, multiple times, and I'm not really sure how you think it supports your argument.

A) There are other reasons that people either don't like playing a cleric (often because they fail to understand how powerful they become).

B) There are other reasons that you don't see clerics waiting around (usually because clerics are anonymous because people blind invite them, which has nothing to do with how strong the class is and/or they only group with guildies because of the widespread inability to understand that a cleric can do way more than just heal).

C) There are other reasons clerics don't wait around. My cleric doesn't usually wait for other people to do stuff. If there isn't a group I want to join to do something, I'm off soloing stuff.



Again, what does this have to do with anything?

People blind invite clerics because they think they "need" one. Because they think that clerics should be healing them and they don't do well without one. In fact, one of the cleric's main advantages in DDO is that they never have to worry about that. They don't have to devote resources to UMD to be able to heal scroll themselves, or use a highly limited resource like LoH. They have immense access to self-healing that's only matched by Warforged wizards and sorcerers.

But really, what does that fact that people want clerics in their groups have to do with whether or not clerics are a powerful class.

If anything, it should point towards clerics being powerful, not the other way round.



Immense DPS output: Blade Barrier
Insta-killing: Banishment, Dismissal, Destruction
Crowd Control: Cometfall (with damage included!), Greater Command, Hold Person
Defense: Plenty of buffs, in fact the only ones that are lacking are DR buffs (a la stoneskin). Blur would be nice too, but can be replicated (if you care to) with Obscuring Mist.
Healing: Pretty obvious

What other "power" do you want? Clerics are versatile and powerful.

Domains, more devotion items (7 & 8), more spells to choose from, arcane lore to not only be on 3 raid items and 1 other item, improved metamagics for clerics (other than improved empower healing), and if no domains for clerics because I think that would honestly be alot of work for the devs (although it should have been done pre release) Then some decent enhancement lines (cleric only) that rival in power to what rangers got, rogues are getting, etc etc, and if somebody tells me a 10 minute timer heal is a great enhancement then I am going to vomit.

[MysticTheurge]

Look.

There are obviously ways to make clerics more powerful. No one's denying that.

But they're already powerful. They're already one of the most powerful classes in the game.

[Cowdenicus]

Look.

There are obviously ways to make clerics more powerful. No one's denying that.

But they're already powerful. They're already one of the most powerful classes in the game.

Yet one of the least played, which needs to change.

Even if that point were to be ignored, There is no way a cleric will keep up with what druids will be. It wont happen. MT you know the spell lists, give me one reason why anybody would play a cleric over a druid other than healing. I doubt you can, and that will be an issue.

[Impaqt]

I like to think I'm on the side that clerics do indeed need a boost, but as many have pointed out, they are pretty solid.

I'd like to see Blade Barrier go back to where it was... Hopefully with the new Barrier Recognition, the Devs can fix Blade barrier so it stacks again....

I'd like to see some more PrC Enhancments. The ones we have do what? Give us a Martial Weapon Proficincy Clicky and some not so exciting spell like castings for tier 2..... Get rid of the 10 minute timer on those.. Or at least let it reset when we shrine(And when We Log Out!).

I'd Like to see less reliance on Heal Scrolls and Mnemonic potions. It is way out of hand. If I want to do anything but heal, I must use scrolls. I'm buying 100 every couple days... More if I do some Shroud Runs.....

Would Ilike to see Domains? Of Course.... Am I gimped without them? Not by a long shot.

You've made your name as a Cleric Cow..... and you've done it all.. Your Burned out on it.... That doesnt mean the class is broken..... Maybe playing another character for a while is what you need..... You Probobly need to Roll a Pure paly so you can see just how bad off they are compared to us Clerics.... I wouldtn dare go into any l10+ Quest Solo n a Paly.... But On My cleric, I've soloed most of the Vale..... Palays cant touch us.

As a final note

There NOTHING the devs can do that will change Player perception of what clerics "Should Be" and what they as "Designed to do". We will ALWAYS be the "Healer". Thats something you need to come to grips with or you'll never have fun playing your clerics ever again.

[Gunga]

Now if we could see some love for clerics......

Nonsense.

[Cowdenicus]

I like to think I'm on the side that clerics do indeed need a boost, but as many have pointed out, they are pretty solid.

I'd like to see Blade Barrier go back to where it was... Hopefully with the new Barrier Recognition, the Devs can fix Blade barrier so it stacks again....

I'd like to see some more PrC Enhancments. The ones we have do what? Give us a Martial Weapon Proficincy Clicky and some not so exciting spell like castings for tier 2..... Get rid of the 10 minute timer on those.. Or at least let it reset when we shrine(And when We Log Out!).

I'd Like to see less reliance on Heal Scrolls and Mnemonic potions. It is way out of hand. If I want to do anything but heal, I must use scrolls. I'm buying 100 every couple days... More if I do some Shroud Runs.....

Would Ilike to see Domains? Of Course.... Am I gimped without them? Not by a long shot.

You've made your name as a Cleric Cow..... and you've done it all.. Your Burned out on it.... That doesnt mean the class is broken..... Maybe playing another character for a while is what you need..... You Probobly need to Roll a Pure paly so you can see just how bad off they are compared to us Clerics.... I wouldtn dare go into any l10+ Quest Solo n a Paly.... But On My cleric, I've soloed most of the Vale..... Palays cant touch us.

As a final note

There NOTHING the devs can do that will change Player perception of what clerics "Should Be" and what they as "Designed to do". We will ALWAYS be the "Healer". Thats something you need to come to grips with or you'll never have fun playing your clerics ever again.

I just created a halfling rogue to see what all the buzz is about, other than reaver timers, i think as of today, my clerics are semi retired.

[Laith]

Even if that point were to be ignored, There is no way a cleric will keep up with what druids will be. It wont happen.

magic items don't work when you use wild shape.
in the world of min-maxing, and powerful magic items: this has serious implications.

it means your animal forms probably won't have physical stats of other classes.
It also means that wild shaping means giving up your +6 wis, magi, immunity, fortification, weapon, armor, shield, and other items. leet-sauce, eh?
D&D wild shape isn't quite as good as the WoW variant.

~~~

it all, of course, depends on how a druids abilities are implemented.

in NWN2, for example, druids are considered seriously underpowered.
in PnP, they are considered one of the most brokenly-powerful class around.
the major difference is the wild shapes and spell lists that are allowed.
another dealbreaker for druids is that only one summon is allowed at a time in NWN2 (sound familiar).

generally speaking, druids are poorer healers and don't have as many combat buffs as clerics.
their damage & CC magic is roughly equivalent to a cleric.
they probably won't have animal companions, but of course clerics don't really have turning or domains either.

[Cowdenicus]

I wish clerics recast timer on Unyielding Soverignity was comparable to rogues chance to deal a death blow with their way of the assassin 2 enhancement.

[Gunga]

Yet one of the least played, which needs to change.

Even if that point were to be ignored, There is no way a cleric will keep up with what druids will be. It wont happen. MT you know the spell lists, give me one reason why anybody would play a cleric over a druid other than healing. I doubt you can, and that will be an issue.

Clerics are primarily healers. EVERYTHING else is secondary. If you're a great player, you can create a monster of a cleric that can melee, do great offensive damage and keep the party up. But Clerics are designed to heal, no sense in arguing that point. Clerics currently have enhancements that give them more power than any other class. Both of my tricked out sorcs are tweaked to the max for damage and cannot consistently dish out 1200 point damage like my cleric can dish out 1200 point heals. I'm all for progress as long as it doesn't take away from the game.

[Turial]

Can you guys make Paladin Devotion affect the amount of healing from a Lay on Hands?

Or maybe even make it do double duty for healing spells and healing wands.

I've been seeing some complaints about it as a pre-req for the raise enhancements to the effect of "Most paladins don't use cure spells" which seems fair. Adding one or both of the above effects would probably make a Paladin's Devotion enhancements useful.

Now would you support the boosting of devotion lines to do this for the 2/3 classes that get them (bards get healing and sonic boosted so they dont technically have devotion) or would this be a paladin only change?

Personally I think the more healing a group can eek out from the secondary "battle medics" the more well rounded they will be and more able to diversify out of pigeon holes.

[Cowdenicus]

magic items don't work when you use wild shape.
in the world of min-maxing, and powerful magic items: this has serious implications.


in NWN2, for example, druids are considered seriously underpowered.
in PnP, they are considered one of the most brokenly-powerful class around.
the major difference is the wild shapes and spell lists that are allowed.

it all, of course, depends on how a druids abilities are implemented.

generally speaking, druids are poorer healers and don't have as many combat buffs as clerics.
their damage & CC magic is roughly equivalent to a cleric.
they probably won't have animal companions, but of course clerics don't really have turning or domains either.

Hey Vanash when he was quasi specd for turning didnt have too bad of a time with it in catacombs on normal at level 14. I tried it.

[MysticTheurge]

magic items don't work when you use wild shape.

And, depending on whether they implement Natural Spell or not (and not implementing it could be a valid DM Decision; I've heard of D&D DMs who don't allow this feat), you may not be able to cast while Wild Shaped either. Even if it is implemented, you're down a feat.

A fix to either BB or Wall of Fire, so that both use the same mechanic (either "crossing the plane is required" or "standing in the wall/barrier" counts) would also leave BB being the significantly more powerful spell.

Depending on how they implement Reincarnation (or, in fact, whether they implement the spell or not), Druids may not be the best guys to have around when you die.

Several important spells are lower levels. Mass Death Ward as an 8th instead of a 9th. Heal as a 6th instead of a 7th level spell. Destruction as a 7th level spell vs. Finger of Death as an 8th level spell.

Cure Spells >> Summon Nature's Ally.

Mass Heal.

[Gunga]

I like to think I'm on the side that clerics do indeed need a boost, but as many have pointed out, they are pretty solid.

I'd like to see Blade Barrier go back to where it was... Hopefully with the new Barrier Recognition, the Devs can fix Blade barrier so it stacks again....

I'd like to see some more PrC Enhancments. The ones we have do what? Give us a Martial Weapon Proficincy Clicky and some not so exciting spell like castings for tier 2..... Get rid of the 10 minute timer on those.. Or at least let it reset when we shrine(And when We Log Out!).

I'd Like to see less reliance on Heal Scrolls and Mnemonic potions. It is way out of hand. If I want to do anything but heal, I must use scrolls. I'm buying 100 every couple days... More if I do some Shroud Runs.....

Would Ilike to see Domains? Of Course.... Am I gimped without them? Not by a long shot.

You've made your name as a Cleric Cow..... and you've done it all.. Your Burned out on it.... That doesnt mean the class is broken..... Maybe playing another character for a while is what you need..... You Probobly need to Roll a Pure paly so you can see just how bad off they are compared to us Clerics.... I wouldtn dare go into any l10+ Quest Solo n a Paly.... But On My cleric, I've soloed most of the Vale..... Palays cant touch us.

As a final note

There NOTHING the devs can do that will change Player perception of what clerics "Should Be" and what they as "Designed to do". We will ALWAYS be the "Healer". Thats something you need to come to grips with or you'll never have fun playing your clerics ever again.

/signed

[Laith]

Hey Vanash when he was quasi specd for turning didnt have too bad of a time with it in catacombs on normal at level 14. I tried it.

even not specced at lvl16 (with reaver gloves and 20 cha) i can turn one giant skele at a time on normal in reaver pre-raid and necropolis pre-raid.

no, i didn't kill them: they feared instead. "Destroying" isn't "turning", it's all together different.

[Boulderun]

Look, let's just add in Bolt of Glory so that we can all then agree clerics are massively overpowered along with everyone else (except fighters and paladins ).

[Cowdenicus]

Look, let's just add in Bolt of Glory so that we can all then agree clerics are massively overpowered along with everyone else (except fighters and paladins ).

A 15d6 ray spell would be overpowered for clerics?