Weekly Development Activities 3/31/2008

[llevenbaxx]

Did it say anywhere if Paly Divine Sacrifice will fit into the regular attack chain or if will cause an interruption? Hopefully it will work like trip/stun but its not sounding like it.

[MysticTheurge]

High level rogues, FTW!!!!!

I can finally finally FINALLY play my rogue the way I have always dreamed it!!!

It takes a lot of APs though...

I'm running the numbers and you have 4 free AP between levels 2 and 4, and 6 free ones between level 9 and 12. Everything else is accounted for until after you get WotAII.

[Vienemen]

Spells
New spells

• New Level 8 Sor/Wiz
• New Mind Blank
• New Prismatic Wall
• New Protection from Spells
• New Maze
• New Planar Binding, Greater
• New Moment of Prescience
• New Prying Eyes, Greater
• New Antipathy
• New Binding
• New Symbol of Insanity
• New Sympathy
• New Bigby's Clenched Fist
• New Otiluke's Telekinetic Sphere
• New Scintillating Pattern
• New Clone
• New Create Greater Undead
• New Iron Body
• New Polymorph Any Object
• New Temporal Stasis

Sweet!

[maddmatt70]

new Fascinate mechanics...

Ranks + Stat bonus + AP boost + Skill Boosts + Items + Spells + d20 = DC

Human level 4 bard I have

7 ranks + 5 stat + 0 AP + 2 HV + 3 item + 2 Heroism = (17-19) +d20 for the DC I will be getting at. Most of the time that will be close to 95% success anyway. Could also cast Eagles Splendor (Clickie etc) for another net of +1 IIRC. I could also choose to drop a few AP on Enhancing the skill, and may choose to now, where as before it was pointless.

As mentioned before, top end bards have no worries as it stands. The saves will be very very hard for any level appropriate mobs to resist with any success.

Oh yeah right this is the normal bard with a +3 perform item (twink you very much), human versatility - are you kidding me, heroism at level 4 (hello cure mod). Oh and by the way the wizard or sorc just got off 3 spells in the time I played one fascinate which can be disrupted by any damage that is done...

[ArkoHighStar]

Sweet!

can I ask how posting a bogus list helps anyone

[dragnmoon]

Do I even need to say it at this point?

No Heals for me?...

[EspyLacopa]

can I ask how posting a bogus list helps anyone

It's not even April First yet.

[stockwizard5]

Don't forget that Bard's can't Fascinate from the safety of distance/back line. The 100% is huge to the effectiveness and willingness of Bards to engage mobs in order to perform it.

This really hurts multi-class bards the most as they probably do not have sufficient DC to be effective any longer. I understand why this should be inherantly so - but its rather unfair to many builds.

Drew (a stealth wizard build) took Bard at 13 in response to changing sneak vis-a-vis doors+levers. I understand being flexible but its getting harder and harder to find alternative ways to complete quests - as its getting harder and harder to respec creative characters to keep them viable.

Did we really have too much stealth then - do we really have too much fascinate now?

[Vienemen]

It's not even April First yet.

**** your right, should have waited...****

can I ask how posting a bogus list helps anyone

Got to use your imagination

[MysticTheurge]

Oh yeah right this is the normal bard with a +3 perform item (twink you very much), human versatility - are you kidding me, heroism at level 4 (hello cure mod). Oh and by the way the wizard or sorc just got off 3 spells in the time I played one fascinate which can be disrupted by any damage that is done...

+3 items are quite easy to get on the auction house.

Heroism comes in potions if you really want it.

Really, though, we shouldn't even be debating this. There's just no way that a first level ability should have no save. The perform-check based save is already really powerful (and not useable in combat according to the D&D rules).

Wizards have to wait til 15th to get a single-target, short duration, no save CC spell. Bards should have never gotten a AoE, long-duration, no save CC effect at first level.

[dragonoffrost]

Oh yeah right this is the normal bard with a +3 perform item (twink you very much), human versatility - are you kidding me, heroism at level 4 (hello cure mod). Oh and by the way the wizard or sorc just got off 3 spells in the time I played one fascinate which can be disrupted by any damage that is done...

I play 3 bards (2 bards and a Bardbarian) and I don't see how the two non multiclass builds will have problems with facinate sticking. The bardbarian well he's another story, but then again I never expected to use facinate with him unless he was in DEEP trouble. They key is to keep perform skill maxed , wear charisma items(or carry a wand of eagles splendor, instant +2 for a short time to facinate), and maybe use a few buffs (be it spells or pots). Items might not even be needed as Eladrin has said in an earlier post. I will do the numbers on my level 8 and level 3 bards when I get home from work but I bet right now their DC's would be pretty high. As for the Bardbarian well I'll even check him and might be shocked.

[llevenbaxx]

I understand being flexible but its getting harder and harder to find alternative ways to complete quests - as its getting harder and harder to respec creative characters to keep them viable.

QFT. Characters with anything more than a splash level or two are really going to be missing out on alot compared to their PnP MCing counterparts. Turbine really better be careful not to go too crazy with these "endclass" lines, I shudder to think what a dual class character is thinking of this game at this point. Not very pretty.

[Oran_Lathor]

Nice love for pallies and rogues. I'd just like to say that the acrobat and assassin II sound a LOT like the suggestions a good friend of mine posted a month or two back. Good to see the devs are listening

[maddmatt70]

+3 items are quite easy to get on the auction house.

Heroism comes in potions if you really want it.

Really, though, we shouldn't even be debating this. There's just no way that a first level ability should have no save. The perform-check based save is already really powerful (and not useable in combat according to the D&D rules).

Wizards have to wait til 15th to get a single-target, short duration, no save CC spell. Bards should have never gotten a AoE, long-duration, no save CC effect at first level.

What I would really like is a faster casting time on fascinate (it should be a standard action just like a spell), but we all know that will not happen because of animation issues. So making it the best dc in the game with the high inflated mobs will dc is a poor but will have to do substitute. I am not disputing the change from no save, but rather I would like a corresponding item that makes this a difficult to save event. You are actually advocating the continued twink approach (buy your +3, +5, +7 + 10 perform item) which is an inadequate solution for newer players and poor solution for existing players.

[Zenako]

Oh yeah right this is the normal bard with a +3 perform item (twink you very much), human versatility - are you kidding me, heroism at level 4 (hello cure mod). Oh and by the way the wizard or sorc just got off 3 spells in the time I played one fascinate which can be disrupted by any damage that is done...

Don't know about you, but I see them all the time, just like +3 spot, search, etc items. Human Versatility is in my Human build, and I might or might not want to use it for a Perform check, but it is a very viable option which is why it is on the list but optional. Bards can readily use cure wands (gained from collectible turn ins) and should not be expected to be a main healer in my opinion and have too many cure spells cluttering up their lists. My near capped bard keeps only one Healing Spell on his active list (CSW or CCW IIRC). Can they, sure, been there and done that, but I personally found that buffing the allies and CC the mobs far better than healing the booboos.

As for people breaking the effect, all it really takes is letting them know how it works AND letting them know that if they choose to bust it all up at once instead of taking down those music lovers one by one, that I was not equipped to (or willing to) spend lots of resources healing up their avoidable damage. Expeditous retreat and run in circles while singing and soon you have a enraptured audience. Been there and done that at all levels. Kinda like giving the whole battlefield a time out....

[Naso24]

"NEW Sound Burst has had its spell description changed to reflect the fact that the stun effect can be resisted using Spell resistance. "

I have a question about the accuracy of soundburst description. When an opponent is stunned, why are attacks not auto-crit the same as stunning blow or greater shout?

[MysticTheurge]

I am not disputing the change from no save, but rather I would like a corresponding item that makes this a difficult to save event. You are actually advocating the continued twink approach (buy your +3, +5, +7 + 10 perform item) which is an inadequate solution for newer players and poor solution for existing players.

Fascinate will already be the hardest save in the game, before a perform item. At all levels.

Typical early-game spell DC: 10 + 1 (spell level) + 4 (18 casting stat) = 15
Typical early-game fascinate DC: 1d20 + 4 (ranks) + 4 (18 charisma) = 9-28 average: 18

Typical mid-game spell DC: 10 + 4 (spell level) + 6 (22 casting stat) = 20
Typical mid-game fascinate DC: 1d20 + 12 (ranks) + 6 (22 charisma) = 19-38 average: 28

Typical end-game spell DC: 10 + 8 (max spell level) + 12 (34 in casting stat) + 1 (focus item) = 31
Typical end-game fascinate DC: 1d20 + 19 (max ranks in perform) + 10 (30 charisma) = 28-47 average: 39

You're going to average a higher save than any level appropriate spell. At all levels of the game.

If you add in perform items at the appropriate levels and you're just about matching and/or significantly exceeding the spell DC when you roll a 1 on your check.

[Coldin]

So a no-uses-per-day, any-time-you're-sneak-attacking, short-cooldown death attack isn't enough?

I understand your point MT. And WotA II looks pretty awesome. I'll probably be taking it come Mod 7 (assuming there is no WotM II) since my rogue has a high Int to begin with. But that's only for Assassin specced rogues, and it requires a good deal of APs to achieve. There needs to be a few more cheaper enhancements that are available to all rogues.

Can't I just be overly pessimistic for a day?

[Zenako]

Fascinate will already be the hardest save in the game, before a perform item. At all levels.

Typical early-game spell DC: 10 + 1 (spell level) + 4 (18 casting stat) = 15
Typical early-game fascinate DC: 1d20 + 4 (ranks) + 4 (18 charisma) = 9-28 average: 18

Typical mid-game spell DC: 10 + 4 (spell level) + 6 (22 casting stat) = 20
Typical mid-game fascinate DC: 1d20 + 12 (ranks) + 6 (22 charisma) = 19-38 average: 28

Typical end-game spell DC: 10 + 8 (max spell level) + 12 (34 in casting stat) + 1 (focus item) = 31
Typical end-game fascinate DC: 1d20 + 17 (max ranks in perform) + 10 (30 charisma) = 28-47 average: 37

You're going to average a higher save than any level appropriate spell. At all levels of the game.

If you add in perform items at the appropriate levels and you're just about matching and/or significantly exceeding the spell DC when you roll a 1 on your check.

And don't forget all the other things which routinely add to SKILLS like Perform, like Luck Items and Greater Heroism for example...

[maddmatt70]

Fascinate will already be the hardest save in the game, before a perform item. At all levels.

Typical early-game spell DC: 10 + 1 (spell level) + 4 (18 casting stat) = 15
Typical early-game fascinate DC: 1d20 + 4 (ranks) + 4 (18 charisma) = 9-28 average: 18

Typical mid-game spell DC: 10 + 4 (spell level) + 6 (22 casting stat) = 20
Typical mid-game fascinate DC: 1d20 + 12 (ranks) + 6 (22 charisma) = 19-38 average: 28

Typical end-game spell DC: 10 + 8 (max spell level) + 12 (34 in casting stat) + 1 (focus item) = 31
Typical end-game fascinate DC: 1d20 + 17 (max ranks in perform) + 10 (30 charisma) = 28-47 average: 37

You're going to average a higher save than any level appropriate spell. At all levels of the game.

If you add in perform items at the appropriate levels and you're just about matching and/or significantly exceeding the spell DC when you roll a 1 on your check.

We will see what this does to perform, but my guess without decreasing the casting time is this effectively removes this from the game. The effects of spells at end game are just better then a fascinates effects and now at low and mid levels with corresponding saves, slow fascinate casting time, and slightly lesser effects then spells bye bye fascinate..