Weekly Development Activities 3/31/2008

[Mhykke]

It's really just the nature of the mods. Mod 5 was designed in a way where casters blew everyone away. Mod 6 shroud gives that role to DPS barbs/rangers (AC and saves don't matter).

I disagree. While talking about melee, barbs and rangers, and fighters for that matter, have been ahead of paladins since the cap was 10.

If they fill a mod with choas orbs, beholders, anti magic zones, casters that spam greater command, etc, then paladins would be quite the asset.

Again, I disagree. If they filled a zone w/ anti magic, I'd much, much rather the barb than the paladin. Where does the barb rely on his combat ability? From his rage. That can't be dispelled. The paladin's already anaemic combat ability would be further weakend by having his DF useless.

And beholders? Again, I'd much rather a barb go up against a beholder than a paladin. A beholder is deadly from neg leveling. You need to kill the beholder before it neg. lvls you to death, or down to make your saves useless when it FTS's you or something. A barb. is much better at this task. And if you take things such as the beholder optic nerve into account, barbs are even better, b/c they have the better chance of killing the beholder before the charges on his item are expended.

And barbs will saves are perfectly fine when raged. Grtr command is one of the last things I'm worried about when on my barb. And when leading parties through the shroud, I'll gladly put the barbs on the gnoll in part 2.

I think leaving the current smite alone, but giving the paladin a % chance per hit to deliver an exalted smite would be more fun than a clicky they need to spam.

I agree, making all the paladin combat clicky based is annoying, and a mistake.

A lot of rangers don't like mashing the deepwood sniper button for example, so it would be nice if they didn't start adding more button mashy enhancements (I don't use auto attack so I mash keys enough). Haste boost for example causes a 1 second attack delay after use and sometimes you have to stop attacking for it to even register and go off. I'm not sure if exalted smite is integrated nicely like trip or stunning blow and causes no delay (hopefully it's like that) or if it's lame like the boost clickies, but nonetheless a % chance would be less aggravating than a clicky spam. We're spamming enough with trip, stunning blow, sunder, cleave/great cleave, etc. There's not enough mouse side buttons for more!

Replies in red.

[Aesop]

Unlimited use with 60 second cooldown would be appropriate.

honestly givien the nature it would not be inappropriate for a 20sec cooldown even. Even with enhanced damage a fighter with Greater Weapon Spec will do as much or more damage over the same period of time as the paladin and their damage is based around the weapon not the alignment of the target. I also feel that Fightes have been lacking on effective Enhancments and should be given a little love sometime soon.

Aesop

[gpk]

honestly givien the nature it would not be inappropriate for a 20sec cooldown even. Even with enhanced damage a fighter with Greater Weapon Spec will do as much or more damage over the same period of time as the paladin and their damage is based around the weapon not the alignment of the target. I also feel that Fightes have been lacking on effective Enhancments and should be given a little love sometime soon.

Aesop

I think if you compare the contribution of Ram's Might to a hasted 1 handed pally the Smite timer would have to be somewhere in the 6-12 second range (just of the top of my head).
And as I said before, if all there is unlimited smites (and right no there is NO reason for there not to be) then it should be adjusted to better than Ram's might levels primarily due to the fact that the pally is further behind a mod5 ranger.

I'd rather not see all the eggs be put in the smite and would still like to see some supplemental spells like Silverbeard, Righteous Might and Righteous Fury.

And yes these clicky attacks you need to inject into the attack queue aren't really practical, I think there needs to be an alternate passive toggle where the attack would trigger automatically on the swing of your choosing, a little popup box you can drag to tool bar, 1st swing, 4th swing , manual activation .

And yes Fighters are in a very dangerous spot as well, they have already started their journey to paladin-neglect-ville and there should be alarms going off at turbine.

[Kraegor]

Ok. Find a light blunt weapon that is also made of wood in a D&D source. Clubs are not light, and deal 1d6 damage. Closest I can find are Nunchaku, and those are Exotic.

Perhaps make Quarterstaves finessable if you take an exotic proficiency in them.

In d20 D&D, anything that can be easily used in 1 hand, made of wood/metal with no special attachments to it can be a "club".
(2 handed "clubs" are greatclubs, i.e. Baseball Bat)

Broken Broom Handle
Chair Leg
Sawed off Baseball bat
Sheathed Sword
Umbrella

Now we get into the finessable weapons:

Nightsticks (police type issue)
Rattan (Long slender 18" wooden sticks)
Baton (long 18 inch 1" diameter club)
Shinai (slightly curved form of the Rattan)

and many many others...



Most of the following martial arts use stick weapons similar to these, or slight variations.

* Arnis (Filipino)
* Bartitsu (English, Swiss/French and Japanese)
* Bata (Irish)
* Baranta (Hungarian)
* Canne de combat (French)
* Bâton français (French)
* Bōjutsu (Japanese, Okinawan)
* Calinda (Caribbean, especially Trinidad)
* Dravidian martial arts (Dravidian)
* Egyptian stick fencing
* Eskrima (Filipino)
* Gun (staff) (Chinese)
* Hanbo (Japanese)
* Jogo do Pau (Portuguese)
* Jojutsu (Japanese)
* Juego del Palo (Canary Islands)
* Kendo (Japanese)
* Kali (martial art)) (USA - based on Filipino)
* La canne (French modern)
* Makila (Basque)
* Nguni stick fighting (South African herdboy tradition)
* Quarterstaff (English Medieval)
* Shillelagh (Irish)
* Silambam (Tamil)
* SCA rattan weapons (United States)
* Tamil Martial Arts (Tamil)

[MysticTheurge]

In d20 D&D, anything that can be easily used in 1 hand, made of wood/metal with no special attachments to it can be a "club".
(2 handed "clubs" are greatclubs, i.e. Baseball Bat)

Broken Broom Handle
Chair Leg
Sawed off Baseball bat
Sheathed Sword
Umbrella

Uh, no.

Those things are improvised weapons.

[EspyLacopa]

In d20 D&D, anything that can be easily used in 1 hand, made of wood/metal with no special attachments to it can be a "club".
(2 handed "clubs" are greatclubs, i.e. Baseball Bat)

Guess what?

Clubs aren't Light.

[Geonis]

Oh, well that's easy. I can answer that.

Well, I will apologize to anyone that thinks I am calling them unintelligent.

That being said, I said what I said, because it is a mathematical fact that the new enhancements will lower overall DPS.

That is the opposite of what we (the Paladin playing majority) have asked for time and time again.

Add to that the fact that Pallys have been nerfed on several occasions, but the Devs are unwilling to even adjust what they have admitted was an overpowered enhancement to Barbarians.

It all adds up to a complete lack of "Pally Love".

I don't understand the Devs infatuation with Smite Evil.

It can be a useful ability in PnP, where it does not slow down your attack speed, in fact does nothing but help your offense.

This is in an environment where you would be facing approximately 2-4 encounters a day.

In DDO we face 2-4 encounters about every 5 minutes.

That being said, 4 or even 8 Smite Evils per day, if they are to be the primary form of damage dealing of the Paladin, are insufficient at best.

An alternative for Smite Evil:


Smite Evil should be placed on a timer like ManyShot.
Edit:The timer should be nowhere near the length of ManyShot, perhaps 20-30 seconds cooldown.


This gives the ability to use it unlimited times per "day", but not excessively often.

The enhancements for Paladins could include 2 for Smite Evil, one to lower the cooldown, another to increase the base damage.


Improved Smite Evil I
Prereq:Extra Smite Evil II, 16 AP spent
Cost 1AP
Benefit:Lowers the Smite Evil cooldown from 25 seconds to 21 seconds.


Improved Smite Evil II
Prereq:Improved Smite Evil I, 32 AP spent
Cost 2AP
Benefit:Lowers the Smite Evil cooldown from 21 seconds to 17 seconds.


Improved Smite Evil III
Prereq:Improved Smite Evil II, 48 AP spent
Cost 3AP
Benefit:Lowers the Smite Evil cooldown from 17 seconds to 13 seconds.


Enhanced Smite Evil I
Prereq:Improved Smite Evil II, Smite Evil I, 28 AP spent
Cost 2AP
Benefit:Adds Good alignment to all smites, and increases the threat range for your smites by +1.


Enhanced Smite Evil I
Prereq:Extra Smite Evil II, Enhanced Smite Evil I, 52 AP spent
Cost 4AP
Benefit:Increases the threat range for your smites by an additional +1, and ignores any DR (including those normally not bypassable).


There is an example of Smite Evil enhancements I would take.

Adding xd6 to an ability doesn't work in this game, because the mobs have an insane number of HPs.

If the proposed "enhancements" go into the game as is, I won't say another word, I will just quietly delete my Pally and roll a Halfling Rogue..........

[gpk]

I'm sorry but there is just no rational way to justify the proposed "additions" to the paladin class as "pally love".
Anytime you sit down and compare the numbers, their contribution etc. you see that they amount to near zero worth.

Those that are wowed by the possibility of the occasional high crit simply haven't given it much thought or would be pleased no matter what you gave them. There are players in every game that no matter what have "fun", glaring imbalances or not they still have "fun" and still say "oh that's good". Some people are just not good gamers, this is not an insult it's just the way life is. Others don't have the free time to improve or make more sound observations, again there is nothing wrong with that, there is no shame in having a busy real life.

However, a game like DDO attracts a fair amount of savvy players and unfortunately I feel they are very underrepresented here in the forums, and this so called "pally love" is far from even being close to even what rangers got in mod6; and let's not forget rangers were in better shape than pallies were.

The proposed changes are completely the opposite of what is needed to stop the paladin from being in a distant last place compared to all other classes. Not only are they the opposite, but they are near worthless and irrelevant and really serve only as insult to injury.

I challenge anyone to explain to us WHY they are valuable additions; the reasons why they are terrible have been presented in this and various other threads already.

It would be a HUGE mistake for there not to be any actual pally love for mod7; bigger than the imbalances created with other things given to other classes.

You'll have to forgive the "impolite" tones in these posts; but we've been waiting for what will soon be a year for the pally class to be fixed, and thus far there is nothing that indicates positive changes.

I sure hope there is a bunch more quality stuff coming.

[Geonis]

I'm sorry but there is just no rational way to justify the proposed "additions" to the paladin class as "pally love".
Anytime you sit down and compare the numbers, their contribution etc. you see that they amount to near zero worth.

Those that are wowed by the possibility of the occasional high crit simpy haven't given it much thought or would be pleased no matter what you gave them. There are players in every game that no matetr what have "fun", glaring imbalances or not they still have "fun" and still say "oh that's good". Some people are just not good gamers, this is not an insult it's just the way life is. Others don't have the free time to improve or make more sound observations, again there is nothing wrong with that, there is no shame in having a busy real life.

However, a game like DDO attracts a fair amount of savvy players and unfrotunately I feel they are very underepresented here in the forums, and this so called "pally love" is far from even being close to even what rangers got in mod6; and let's not forget rangers were in better shape than pallies were.

The proposed changes are completely the opposite of what is needed to stop the paladin from being in a distant last place compared to all other classes. Not only are they the opposite, but they are near worthless and irrelevant and really serve only as insult to injury.

I challenge anyone to explain to us WHY they are valuable additions; the reasons why they are terrible have been presented in this and various other threads already.

It would be a HUGE mistake for there not to be any actual pally love for mod7; bigger than the imbalances created with other things given to other classes.

You'll have to forgive the "impolite" tones in these posts; but we've been waiting for what will soon be a year for the pally class to be fixed, and thus far there is nothing that indicates positive changes.

I sure hope there is a bunch more quality stuff coming.

QFT

[Turial]

I like your idea for the passive insertion of clicky attacks into the attack que via passive toggle. Though the tactical attacks like trip, stunning blow, etc maybe a little to powerful if they simply happened every time the timer was up.

I think if you compare the contribution of Ram's Might to a hasted 1 handed pally the Smite timer would have to be somewhere in the 6-12 second range (just of the top of my head).
And as I said before, if all there is unlimited smites (and right no there is NO reason for there not to be) then it should be adjusted to better than Ram's might levels primarily due to the fact that the pally is further behind a mod5 ranger.

I'd rather not see all the eggs be put in the smite and would still like to see some supplemental spells like Silverbeard, Righteous Might and Righteous Fury.

And yes these clicky attacks you need to inject into the attack queue aren't really practical, I think there needs to be an alternate passive toggle where the attack would trigger automatically on the swing of your choosing, a little popup box you can drag to tool bar, 1st swing, 4th swing , manual activation .

And yes Fighters are in a very dangerous spot as well, they have already started their journey to paladin-neglect-ville and there should be alarms going off at turbine.

[gpk]

I like your idea for the passive insertion of clicky attacks into the attack que via passive toggle. Though the tactical attacks like trip, stunning blow, etc maybe a little to powerful if they simply happened every time the timer was up.

Inserting special attacks into the attack chain does not work properly with hotkeys if you right click to attack.

If I am right clicking to swing and press a hotkey (shortcut key, bound )to insert a special attack, the special attack icon will flash acknowledging it has been pressed but most of the time it does not properly activate. It takes spamming hotkeys for it to activate and by then it's not in the proper swing.

Auto-attack does not seem to have this problem, presumably mod7's autoattack on right mouse button being held will behave as auto attack does now.

So you can well imagine even if Divine Sacrifice was fixed and Smite Evils were useful, it would be very hard to inject them into the attack chain for proper usage unless auto-attack or probably auto-attack on right mouse button being held.

[EspyLacopa]

It can be a useful ability in PnP, where it does not slow down your attack speed, in fact does nothing but help your offense.

This is in an environment where you would be facing approximately 2-4 encounters a day.

In DDO we face 2-4 encounters about every 5 minutes.

This is why, when the game first came out, I was surprised that when they magnified Caster SP to allow for the additional encounters per rest, they did not do the same for every limited use ability, including Smite Evil, Barbarian Rage, Cleric Turn Undead, all of them. In exchange, they may have toned down the enhancements (afterall, the SP enhancements, at most, add 150 SP compared to easily 985 base sp), but the extra uses to account for higher numbers of encounters should NOT have been something given with enhancements.

[Geonis]

This is why, when the game first came out, I was surprised that when they magnified Caster SP to allow for the additional encounters per rest, they did not do the same for every limited use ability, including Smite Evil, Barbarian Rage, Cleric Turn Undead, all of them. In exchange, they may have toned down the enhancements (afterall, the SP enhancements, at most, add 150 SP compared to easily 985 base sp), but the extra uses to account for higher numbers of encounters should NOT have been something given with enhancements.

QFT


That is why I make the suggestion above, changing Smite Evile to a cooldown based ability like ManyShot.

Enhancemtns such as Extra Smite can be changed to shorten the cooldown and another enhancement chain could strengthen the damage.

As is, all Smite does is flash occasional big numbers, but lower overall DPS.

[Angelus_dead]

This is why, when the game first came out, I was surprised that when they magnified Caster SP to allow for the additional encounters per rest, they did not do the same for every limited use ability, including Smite Evil, Barbarian Rage, Cleric Turn Undead, all of them.

Barbarian Rage doesn't belong on that list.

With the extension to rage duration, and your ability to blend one combat encounter into another, it works just fine from shrine-to-shrine with only minor need to actively manage the resource. The other abilities you mention do not have durations (instantaneous attacks), so they suffer from a problem.

[MysticTheurge]

Barbarian Rage doesn't belong on that list.

Indeed. Neither do any other per-day effects with a duration (i.e. Bard Songs).

While the number of enemies per "day" is increased. The amount of time per "day" is actually decreased.

[Angelus_dead]

Indeed. Neither do any other per-day effects with a duration (i.e. Bard Songs).

That's not quite accurate. Per-day buff effects work fine, because they're targeted at the party, and you have just one party per day. Per-day debuffs (not that there are any, aside from Fascinate and related things) are relatively weaker, because the number of monsters per day has gone way up. In D&D five uses of an AOE debuff could hit 100% of the monsters for that day, in DDO you could probably only hit 20% with it, and only if you tried to gather them up for it.

Yes, I guess the better way to look at it is to say that self-target dailies retained their power, but enemy-target dailies lost it.

(This would be more of an issue if a class such as Hexblade were added to DDO. His Curse ability has super-long duration, but is single-target with only a few uses)

[MysticTheurge]

Yes, I guess the better way to look at it is to say that self-target dailies retained their power, but enemy-target dailies lost it.

Yes. Though I might go so far as to extend "dailies" to "effects."

DDO's buff spells are, in many cases, more powerful than D&Ds. Especially where the durations haven't been reduced from 1 hr/level or 10 min/level.

[EspyLacopa]

Indeed. Neither do any other per-day effects with a duration (i.e. Bard Songs).

While the number of enemies per "day" is increased. The amount of time per "day" is actually decreased.

To be fair, Rage and the Bardsongs have both been made far more powerful than they are in D&D due to how DDO works. Rage in that it can easily span several encounters at a time, and Bardsongs for the fact that they don't tie up the bard from doing things like Casting Spells or Using Magical Items (as well as the fact that they can also last several encounters per use).

[binnsr]

Nothing "happened" to him. No need to panic hehehe.

I smell a rat! His PMs disabled and he hasn't logged in for a week now (Last Activity: 03-27-2008 10:03 AM)


<tinfoil-hat>on</tinfoil-hat>

[ccheath776]

NEW Paladin Redemption I
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereq: Level 9 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I, 28 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion II, Paladin Heal II
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to raise the dead, returning your target to life at 10% health.

WOW cool.